Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

shuffol

Cave weighs a good stone more than EOM too.

GerM

errlloyd wrote: »

Undergrad in Griffith, Masters in Trinity.

Have to say though, I thought he was a brutal centre. But I saw a lot of him in that era of small skillful centres. I think we're going back to the brutes of the 90s. (Not here in Ireland, but I mean the likes of SBW, Tualangi and Roberts).

Fair enough. I do think a lot of people who think he was a poor centre are basing it on his last couple of Irish games there and don't remember his games there for Leinster. Horgan, despite his size, was never a bosh merchant or a brute of a centre. His hands for Fitzgerald's try in the 2009 semi final or for BOD's try in Toulouse in 2006 are more representative of how he plays the game. Good hands, not great but good, with a nose for the line and an ability to make yards through weak tackling. It's rare he ever bounced through anyone. This was typical Horgan in the early part of the century:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljfAey6D9x4

He was never Jauzion but people sometimes go on about him not having the skill levels for the centre which I disagree greatly with. I think he was just a far more effective winger when we put him there so should have always stayed there once we realised that.

irishbucsfan

I was absolutely delighted when Leinster stopped playing Horgan in the center. He took so much out of the ball, it just wasn't Leinster rugby. Thankfully Leinster and Ireland have moved past that type of player in that position. The amount of good possession that Leinster had which died at his hands was criminal

He was never anything other than a winger for me, and I think he was happy to be able to focus on the wing as well.

jacothelad

.ak wrote: »

I was thinking that myself errlloyd, but the more I think about it the less likely it seems. At first when I thought of EoM stepping into an Irish shirt I thought it was just plain bad timing as the rise of the 'massive' centers was coming about ala Roberts, Manu, Nonu..

But, the more I think of it, the less of an issue it seems. The three mentioned above I think are class and perhaps in a league of their own - Although Roberts since the early RWC matches has yet to show any more dimension to his play, Manu Tualangi has yet to be properly tested against decent opposition, and I think Nonu would be just as good if he weighed 12 stone.

But thinking to other centers that are 'famous' because they're big, blocky, back-row forward builds... Nothing really inspires me with confidence - Downey and Bastareaud are good examples.

I think there's still plenty of small centers that do the job just fine. EoM has shown plenty of times that it takes more than just bulk to break that midfield line. Cave has shown that loops and dummy runs are intergal part of getting over the gain line rather than smashing through it. And coming to think of, SBW isn't a big bloke. He never really breaks the gain line either, but has his trademark ability of getting his body high, pushing over the line and then off-loading to someone who will be getting past that line.

Size isn't everything I'd say. And how can we complain when we also have the likes of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip causing havoc in the midfield channels.

shuffol wrote: »

Cave weighs a good stone more than EOM too.

Cave is over 6' tall and 15 and a half stones.

lologram

Having just watched the Munster game, we can't have Earls at 13. We just can't.

CiaranMT

.ak wrote: »

SBW isn't a big bloke.

Cheers for the laugh.

irishbucsfan

If I was picking.... My Irish Wolfhounds team to play the Saxons:

Wilkinson, Varley, Archer, McCarthy, Toner, Muldoon (capt), O'Mahoney, Coughlan; Marshall, Madigan, Gilroy, McFadden, O'Malley, O'Halloran, Hurley

Sherry, McGrath, McLoughlin, Ruddock, O'Leary, Keatley, D. Kearney


(It's on in two weeks time I think?)

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If I was picking.... My Irish Wolfhounds team to play the Saxons:

Wilkinson, Varley, Archer, McCarthy, Toner, Muldoon (capt), O'Mahoney, Coughlan; Marshall, Madigan, Gilroy, McFadden, O'Malley, O'Halloran, Hurley

Sherry, McGrath, McLoughlin, Ruddock, O'Leary, Keatley, D. Kearney


(It's on in two weeks time I think?)

No Hagan?

CiaranMT

shuffol wrote: »

No Hagan?

Maybe for the bench but has he got that much of a look-in back at Leinster?

[Jackass]

Archer?? Ouch. Not sure about that, he's woefull. Jack McGrath absolutely ate him alive in an A fixture, and he hasn't looked like he can cope at PRO12 level. Would definitely have Hagan well ahead of him. Archer has been given game time, but hasn't stood up at all.

Decent team though.

For me, I'd probably go for (with a focus on youth)

1. Wilkinson
2. Varley
3. Hagan
4. Caldwell
5. Toner
6. Muldoon
7. Dom Ryan (if fit)
8. Ruddock

9. Marshall
10. Madigan
11. Gilroy
12. Griffen
13. O'Malley
14. O'Halloran
15. Conway

16. Sherry 17. Archer 18. McCarthy 19. O'Mahony 20. Murray 21. Keatley 22.D. Kearney

irishbucsfan

Hagan shouldn't be playing for Ireland until he can get a game at provincial level. He's being held back to sort out his issues, and I'm sure once he has them sorted he'll be ready to play for Leinster and after that for Ireland.

Archer has been formy, but he definitely has shown potential. If Hagan is out of the equation (which he is in my opinion) then it makes sense to give the jersey to the next best young tighthead which is probably Archer.

Given that the English loosehead will probably be Marler, either one of them will be eaten alive either way.


EDIT: Also Dom Ryan won't be fit and Grifen surely shouldn't be played at 12.

Fireball07

Do you not expect POM to be on the bench for the senior team?

And McFadden? I'd expect him to be involved.

Foxtrol

Fireball07 wrote: »

Do you not expect POM to be on the bench for the senior team?

Even if you ignore what is best for POM's development Henry should still be ahead of him for the senior bench spot based purely on his performances this season.

[Jackass]

[Jackass] wrote: »

Archer?? Ouch. Not sure about that, he's woefull. Jack McGrath absolutely ate him alive in an A fixture, and he hasn't looked like he can cope at PRO12 level. Would definitely have Hagan well ahead of him. Archer has been given game time, but hasn't stood up at all.

Decent team though.

For me, I'd probably go for (with a focus on youth)

1. Wilkinson
2. Varley
3. Hagan
4. Caldwell
5. Toner
6. Muldoon
7. Dom Ryan (if fit)
8. Ruddock

9. Marshall
10. Madigan
11. Gilroy
12. Griffen
13. O'Malley
14. O'Halloran
15. Conway

16. Sherry 17. Archer 18. McCarthy 19. O'Mahony 20. Murray 21. Keatley 22.D. Kearney

I would go to every game if we fielded that team

.ak

Benny Cake wrote: »

Is the bolded part a typo? SBW is 6ft3 and 17 stone...

17 stone?! Jesus, doesn't look it. I thought he was boxing in the lightweight division no?

CIARAN_BOYLE

.ak wrote: »

17 stone?! Jesus, doesn't look it. I thought he was boxing in the lightweight division no?

Heavyweight

irishbucsfan

Fireball07 wrote: »

Do you not expect POM to be on the bench for the senior team?

No

1. Henry is better at the moment.

2. Kidney picks players he knows, and he has known and coach Henry far longer.

3. O'Mahoney will in all likelihood injure himself between now and the 6 Nations anyway. (I hope he doesn't, but he goes down so often).

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

17 stone?! Jesus, doesn't look it. I thought he was boxing in the lightweight division no?

You thought SBW was 60 kg?

.ak

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Heavyweight

That's mad. Dunno why I thought he was small for a center.. I guess its the way he's built, small waist etc., etc. He's gotta have no body fat whatsoever..

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You thought SBW was 60 kg?

No, didn't mean literally. :P

Tongue-in-cheek.

But still didn't think it was heavy weight.

.ak

.. also suppose standing beside Nonu you'll generally look smaller.

Fireball07

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No

1. Henry is better at the moment.

2. Kidney picks players he knows, and he has known and coach Henry far longer.

3. O'Mahoney will in all likelihood injure himself between now and the 6 Nations anyway. (I hope he doesn't, but he goes down so often).

1. Henry has been great, I agree but I don't think he's been that much better. Apart from POC, O'Mahoney has been Munster's best player this season.

2. Explain Murray then?

3. I think that's a little pessimistic...he does go down a lot but he's only been missing with one injury so far.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Might it be a good idea to play POM and Henry for the Wolfhounds match against the Saxons and pick the one that plays better for the bench for the senior team.

CiaranMT

.ak wrote: »

That's mad. Dunno why I thought he was small for a center.. I guess its the way he's built, small waist etc., etc. He's gotta have no body fat whatsoever..

.ak wrote: »

.. also suppose standing beside Nonu you'll generally look smaller.

Ma'a Nonu:

Height 6 ft 0 in
Weight 242 lb


Sonny Bill Williams:

Height 6 ft 3 in
Weight 238 lb

From scrum.com.

ed7890

[Jackass] wrote: »

Archer?? Ouch. Not sure about that, he's woefull. Jack McGrath absolutely ate him alive in an A fixture, and he hasn't looked like he can cope at PRO12 level. Would definitely have Hagan well ahead of him. Archer has been given game time, but hasn't stood up at all.

What game was that?

CiaranMT

Frontrow consisting of Archer, Fogs and Puppy picked up where the other three left off tonight. One very dominant scrum in particular.

Hype710

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Might it be a good idea to play POM and Henry for the Wolfhounds match against the Saxons and pick the one that plays better for the bench for the senior team.

I don't think so, the management have seen plenty of all the players so I wouldn't advocate a shoot out as such. I'd use the game to introduce new players to the international scene (O' Halloran, Marshall etc) alongside a couple more seasoned guys who are just outside the Test side (Varley, McCarthy etc). My XXII for the Wolfhounds game would be:

15 Duffy
14 D Kearney
13 O' Malley
12 Whitten
11 O' Halloran
10 Keatley
9 Marshall
8 O' Mahony
7 Ruddock
6 McCarthy
5 Caldwell
4 Toner
3 Hagan
2 Varley
1 Wilkinson

Bench: Sherry, Loughney, Nagle, Muldoon, Boss, Madigan, Gilroy.

[Jackass]

ed7890 wrote: »

What game was that?

the "A" game in Donnybrook at start of last season. McGrath and Archer as seen below.

irishbucsfan

Fireball07 wrote: »

1. Henry has been great, I agree but I don't think he's been that much better. Apart from POC, O'Mahoney has been Munster's best player this season.

2. Explain Murray then?

3. I think that's a little pessimistic...he does go down a lot but he's only been missing with one injury so far.

I think POM is a great player with a great international future. I just think that Henry has been better this year against better opposution. He has been great in the past as well and has been great for the Ireland A team as well, and that's why I'd pick him.

After 2009 I thought Henry would be a great international. After that season his performances fell off. I think he was viewed as an 8 and he was not as good as his competition in the Ulster squad (first Diack, then Wannenberg). Now he seems to be much more at home as a 7, and is playing the way he was before.

I think POM is still physically developing as well. He was poor at getting the ball back after contact yesterday and I think its because of that. That sort of thing is vital at international level. Realistically there was a vast gap between Henry and OMahoneys performances this weekend (not because OMahoney wasn't good).

I also think that Henry is a better traditional 7 than OMahoney, and with our current back row it makes him a little more valuable to have.



P.S. Munster fans I am not criticising OMahoney. I have praised him on here many times, I love him. I think his attitude and leadership probably makes him a better long term prospect than Henry. I think his time will come sooner rather than later, but until then Chris Henry's performances against the best club sides in Europe deserve recognition.

.ak

CiaranMT wrote: »

Ma'a Nonu:

Height 6 ft 0 in
Weight 242 lb


Sonny Bill Williams:

Height 6 ft 3 in
Weight 238 lb

From scrum.com.

Wonder how accurate they are. I'd imagine SBW's is accurate anyhow from boxing weigh ins. Makes sense tho I suppose, Nonu looks to be built like a tank but SBW is definitely noticeably taller.