Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

RoundBox11

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well I suppose it depends on the size of the squad. It might all be in vain anyway, because Kidney might will end up just picking the same old team again.

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

When is Kidney's contract up anyway??

This all just seems so pointless, the whole tour... I mean, who's idea was it to have no other games bar the 3 against NZ?? It's just stupid.

Quint2010

Fireball07 wrote: »

I wasn't only talking for the NZ tour...I was talking about the future in general.

Obviously Ryan and Tuohy is the logical partnership for the NZ tour. But for that, I would be inclined to experiment a bit anyway over the 3 tests. I'd give gametime to POM & Murray certainly. I would have said Jones too but he's playing poorly... while I do think he'll be the long-term 2nd choice 15 for Ireland, I'd bring Dave Kearney or someone instead. I wouldn't be against Zebo in the squad either.

Zebo is a good finisher but fires passes like mortars over peoples heads. Kearney and Gilroy are ahead of him. I will do my nut if he gets selected ahead of those two. On Coughlan V Heaslip-Heaslip hasn't hit the heights of 2010 and Coughlan has shown himself to be a very good ball carrier. Maybe Coughlan has gotten the better of Heaslip in their head to head's. But over the rest of the season Heaslip has been the better player-albeit helped by better players around him.

armchaircoach

Zebo shouldn't be in the squad at the expense of either Gilroy or Dave Kearney, his strong finishing masks a lot of weakness that persist throughout the rest of his game.

However I would be delighted if a range of the young/otherwise ignored guys were bought out and all given a chance to show what they can do, Zebo included

irishbucsfan

I think Zebo and Kearney will go. I'm not so sure about Gilroy. I think Jones will go though.

armchaircoach

I'd probably be more worried about Jones going than Zebo. He has not regained the level of play from the end of last season that would have seen him travel to the WC.

While he has shown some flair in attack, his tackling has been absolutely kack. I'm not just basing this on the Gilroy attempt, he has messed up similar 1 on 1 tackles a few times over the last 3 months (I think most notably in the away game against dragons).

If he does travel it will say more about our lack of depth at full back, rather than anything about his level of performance.

I know this is harsh on him and I hope he gets back to flying form soon, but right now he is not at international standard.

.ak

Bar injury Jones will definitely go. I think Kidney and co made their position clear on Jones last year, and not bringing him now when he's fit and healthy will look bad on them. :P

Thing is, the lad has the x-factor.. He just needs a bit more experience and obviously a lot of work on his tackling technique.

Banbridgeman

If Jones and Zebo go ahead of Duffy/D.kearney and Gilroy it will be a joke. Jones and Zebo should learn to tackle at Rabo direct level before being considered internationally.

thomond2006

Jones is a shadow of the guy that exploded back in the scene after serious injury #2 back in March 2011. The guy needs to come into a pre-season injury free to get back to his old self.

Then again, this season he is missing the guidance of Howlett, who IMO played a huge role in directing the back three.

Cpt_Blackbeard

.ak wrote: »

Just sayin'...

You might need to work on your comprehension skills there buddy...

Upper hand in two head-to-heads /= Better player

Banbridgeman

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

Just sayin'...

You might need to work on your comprehension skills there buddy...

Upper hand in two head-to-heads /= Better player

So you are saying Coughlan is better than Heaslip? Lay off the salt water captain

almighty1

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You might need to work on your comprehension skills there buddy...

Upper hand in two head-to-heads /= Better player

Maybe you should respond to Justins post here before you make such rubbish claims

JustinDee wrote: »

How so? How exactly was Heaslip allegedly "outplayed" by Coughlan every match against each other? Turnovers? Tackle count? Carries? Line breaks? Hit ups? Passes? Curious to see how you'd like to prove this.
You will have to be a lot more specific than launching a throwaway comment suiting a particular point of view.
If Coughlan and Heaslip's usage in a gameplan was even similar, your claim might sport a tad more credence.

Even if there was a reference guide to comparing back rows and Coughlan did "outplay" Heaslip over two matches. How does this make him a better player. Two matches hardly determines the calibre of a player.

I shouldnt feed him......

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

Jones is a shadow of the guy that exploded back in the scene after serious injury #2 back in March 2011. The guy needs to come into a pre-season injury free to get back to his old self.

Then again, this season he is missing the guidance of Howlett, who IMO played a huge role in directing the back three.

I said this a year ago and it didn't go down well, but I think the impact of Jones in the last couple of months last season was vastly over-rated. He was very impressive in the Amlin QF, but then so was everyone, it was basically a training match. He had a shocker in the SF against Quins, he was anonymous enough in both games against Leinster. He had one kick and chase in the game in France and we were all creaming ourselves.

This season, I'm not sure what he's contributed in attack and he's been very ropey in defence. On form, he does not deserve to go anywhere, maybe if DK decides he wants two specialist FBs he'll get the nod because there's a lack of alternatives given Kidney's lack of interest in Duffy, but like Zebo, he should be firmly behind Gilroy and possibly D Kearney.

Cpt_Blackbeard

JustinDee wrote: »

How so? How exactly was Heaslip allegedly "outplayed" by Coughlan every match against each other? Turnovers? Tackle count? Carries? Line breaks? Hit ups? Passes? Curious to see how you'd like to prove this.
You will have to be a lot more specific than launching a throwaway comment suiting a particular point of view.
If Coughlan and Heaslip's usage in a gameplan was even similar, your claim might sport a tad more credence.

You are the one with the access to the official stats, I'll provide what stats I can find.

Of the 3 games which Munster and Leinster contested against one another last year, Coughlan and Heaslip were opposite numbers in two. Of those two games, I can only find stats for the league match in April and not for the Magners final.

According to the ESPN Scrum (not the best source, but it'll do) stats both players got the ball 19 times in the game. Heaslip carried the ball 26 meters in 12 carriers, averaging at <1.5m per carry. Coughlan on the other hand carried the ball 113m in 16 carriers, averaging at >7m per carry. Despite Coughlan running the ball 4 more times, he had no turnovers to Heaslip's two. Pretty telling stats imo.

If the ball carrying doesn't impress you, the rest of the stats indicate that Coughlan was better too. Leinster attempted 147 tackles in that game, Heaslip was responsible for 8 of them (~5.5% of the total team tackles). Munster on the other hand attempted only 71 tackles in the game. Coughlan made 6 of those and missed one (~8.5% of the total team tackles). Munster clearly had the upper hand in the game, but despite carrying brilliantly, Coughlan was more successful in tackling what the opposition threw at him.

Admittedly, its a terrible sample size and we have to consider the respective performances of the other men on the field, but in this one game, Coughlan clearly had the upper hand. I'm sure my point would be better made had I access to stats from the final, as Munster were comfortably the better aide that day.

I think that is reasonable evidence to show that Coughlan outperformed Heaslip in their head-to-heads last season.

Cpt_Blackbeard

almighty1 wrote: »

Even if there was a reference guide to comparing back rows and Coughlan did "outplay" Heaslip over two matches. How does this make him a better player. Two matches hardly determines the calibre of a player.

Where have I once stated that he is a better player? I think you'll find that it was Fitz that made the statement that outperforming your opposite number in a a game equates to you being a better player. I merely gave an example to highlight his BS.

love that someone's managed to convince the captain to resort to statistics, an obvious strong point.

Selective stats are fantastic too. Coughlan having infinitely more missed tackles than Heaslip is as telling as the above.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Where have I once stated that he is a better player? I think you'll find that it was Fitz that made the statement that outperforming your opposite number in a a game equates to you being a better player. I merely gave an example to highlight his BS.

So you're saying Heaslip is a better player. Grand. No issue here.

Banbridgeman

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

JustinDee wrote: »

How so? How exactly was Heaslip allegedly "outplayed" by Coughlan every match against each other? Turnovers? Tackle count? Carries? Line breaks? Hit ups? Passes? Curious to see how you'd like to prove this.
You will have to be a lot more specific than launching a throwaway comment suiting a particular point of view.
If Coughlan and Heaslip's usage in a gameplan was even similar, your claim might sport a tad more credence.

You are the one with the access to the official stats, I'll provide what stats I can find.

Of the 3 games which Munster and Leinster contested against one another last year, Coughlan and Heaslip were opposite numbers in two. Of those two games, I can only find stats for the league match in April and not for the Magners final.

According to the ESPN Scrum (not the best source, but it'll do) stats both players got the ball 19 times in the game. Heaslip carried the ball 26 meters in 12 carriers, averaging at <1.5m per carry. Coughlan on the other hand carried the ball 113m in 16 carriers, averaging at >7m per carry. Despite Coughlan running the ball 4 more times, he had no turnovers to Heaslip's two. Pretty telling stats imo.

If the ball carrying doesn't impress you, the rest of the stats indicate that Coughlan was better too. Leinster attempted 147 tackles in that game, Heaslip was responsible for 8 of them (~5.5% of the total team tackles). Munster on the other hand attempted only 71 tackles in the game. Coughlan made 6 of those and missed one (~8.5% of the total team tackles). Munster clearly had the upper hand in the game, but despite carrying brilliantly, Coughlan was more successful in tackling what the opposition threw at him.

Admittedly, its a terrible sample size and we have to consider the respective performances of the other men on the field, but in this one game, Coughlan clearly had the upper hand. I'm sure my point would be better made had I access to stats from the final, as Munster were comfortably the better aide that day.

I think that is reasonable evidence to show that Coughlan outperformed Heaslip in their head-to-heads last season.

So going on head to head and those particular stats, you agree that Cullen is a better player than O'Connell? You can rely on selective stats from a match in April 2011 (over a year ago!) as much as you like but don't be surprised when people see you as clutching at straws and being so provincially biased that your opinions are rendered defunct. Coughlan is nowhere near Heaslip's level, if he was maybe Munster would have fared better in Europe these past two years.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

love that someone's managed to convince the captain to resort to statistics, an obvious strong point.

Selective stats are fantastic too. Coughlan having infinitely more missed tackles than Heaslip is as telling as the above.

Equally Heaslip had infinitely more turnovers than Coughlan. Swings and roundabouts.

Tox56

The Captain is NOT SAYING that Coughlan is a better player.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Banbridgeman wrote: »

So going on head to head and those particular stats, you agree that Cullen is a better player than O'Connell? You can rely on selective stats from a match in April 2011 (over a year ago!) as much as you like but don't be surprised when people see you as clutching at straws and being so provincially biased that your opinions are rendered defunct. Coughlan is nowhere near Heaslip's level, if he was maybe Munster would have fared better in Europe these past two years.

Go back and read over the thread, then give it another read for good measure. When you are finished, think about what you have read. Try and understand/comprehend what you have just seen. If you are having any difficultly, go back and read it a third time. If you are still having trouble, ask a friend/colleague/family member to help you out.

Finally, once you have completed all of that I'll allow you to edit you post. If you still stick to your guns, I'll respond to your questions.

WeeBushy

Tox56 wrote: »

The Captain is NOT SAYING that Coughlan is a better player.

This. Although i almost wish he was, as what he's arguing at the moment is incredibly inane and tedious.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Tox56 wrote: »

The Captain is NOT SAYING that Coughlan is a better player.

Thank you. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of my back-and-forths on this board would have never happened were the standard of literacy a little higher/I made my original points more clearly.

totallegend

OK. Can we all just move on with our lives now?

Tox56

Well this is going downhill fast.

leftleg

When I left work this was starting to brew and now that I'm home and a bit of dinner eaten, its hilarious; pure entertainment

Clegg

So if we're bringing in younger players for the tour then who do we bring?

I'd say Gilroy and Dave Kearney. The only problem I'd have with Kearney going is that he isn't first choice with Leinster. However he's improved significantly this year and he's one of our top young talents.

Paddy Jackson won't be going to New Zealand as he's representing the Irish under 20's in the world championships.

TheKeenMachine

Clegg wrote: »

So if we're bringing in younger players for the tour then who do we bring?

I'd say Gilroy and Dave Kearney. The only problem I'd have with Kearney going is that he isn't first choice with Leinster. However he's improved significantly this year and he's one of our top young talents.

Paddy Jackson won't be going to New Zealand as he's representing the Irish under 20's in the world championships.

Certainly Madigan; I would like to see Dominic Ryan but it's unlikely; hopefully Paul Marshall; Eoin O'Malley/Nevin Spence; Mike Sherry as number 3 hooker

Quint2010

Will it be a 30 man squad?

irishbucsfan

Quint2010 wrote: »

Will it be a 30 man squad?

I'd say it'll be about 34/35 but that's not based on anything