Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The answer for me would be the addition of another back row. POM, Henry or Dom Ryan. Rotate them in and out and have the roles constantly changing. It makes it harder to play us. Use the 19 jersey better than we have been. Then we'll see them all freed up to do what they do best.

What's this rotation you speak of? Surely this has no place in modern international rugby!?

justsomebloke wrote: »

Has SOB had many standout matches for Leinster at 8?

He was very good there against Sarries in the RDS last season, and did some serious damage up in Ravenhill too.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You mean the same Dom Ryan who cannot get a look-in for Leinster, should be ahead of this year's standout young Irish player? Funny how you go on to mention provincial bias after that statement...

Ryan has been injured a large part of this season, he wasn't being overlooked. He was getting loads of game time last season, and had he remained injury free I'm sure we'd have seen a lot of him this season too. How much he would have developed is anyones guess. As it stands he probably shouldn't feature barring a stand-out performance or two in the the next couple of weeks (I don't see him even on the bench though). I can see Jenno falling behind him next season though.

Cpt_Blackbeard

JustinDee wrote: »

In your opinion, Coughlan outplayed Heaslip.
The reality of it is that Heaslip is an experienced backrower, lineout operator and 8th man, with the added bonus facet of being the best fetcher out of the four provinces and in the international team bar none.

As with (nearly) every post on this post, it is an opinion, but that does not stop it being true. Whenever Heaslip and Coughlan met last season, Coughlan had the upper hand. If Fitz were to stick by his reasoning, he would/should have advocated Coughlan (or Anyone other Irish 8 that outplayed Heaslip during the year) to travel.

Coincidentally, he has become very quiet since I pointed out the double-standard. Just because a player performs better in a head-to-head, doesn't automatically make them a better player.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Does being subbed off = being dropped? Conor Murray was dropped every week so?

As for the second point, maybe if POM was playing in a stronger back row his performances wouldn't be as noticeable. He still has flaws in his game, as much as I rate him. He is extremely impressive and I'd have him in the Irish squad behind the starting 3 and Henry at the moment.

Ok dropped was the wrong term, subbed being correct I'll edit my post.

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Id love to know what exactly Heaslip isn't doing as a specialist 8. His control of the ball is excellent, his defense off the back is probably the best in the world, his carrying off the back is technically top class and ball retention from his carrying there is pretty much 100%, which is what you need from an 8 off the scrum. What exactly more do you want? Do you want him to drive the rest of the pack single-handedly!?

He does have good ball control at the base, but many of the other roles of a specialist 8 involve ball carrying - An area where he has been below his own standards for a year or so.

His carrying from the base is either non-effective or he just doesn't do it. A large part of a specialist 8s play is to field kicks/dropoffs and get over the gain-line and get his team on the front foot while doing so. It is another area where his diminished carrying shines through.

It it the role of a general backrow forward where he shines. His role as a specialist 8, isn't of the same standard.

fitz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

As with (nearly) every post on this post, it is an opinion, but that does not stop it being true. Whenever Heaslip and Coughlan met last season, Coughlan had the upper hand. If Fitz were to stick by his reasoning, he would/should have advocated Coughlan (or Anyone other Irish 8 that outplayed Heaslip during the year) to travel.

Munster played Leinster three times in the pre-World Cup season.
You maintain Coughlan outplayed Heaslip that season and that this makes a double standard of my point about the Leinster back rower's un-precedented dominance leaving little room for people to argue that Heaslip and O'Brien are Irish starters on merit.

Funnily enough, Coughlan didn't even start the first game in the 2010/2011 season. The second game was all about the out-halves, and finished with a single point in the difference. The last game of that season was the ML final, when the Leinster team were clearly still hungover.
Your case for Coughlan outplaying Heaslip that season is far from cast-iron.

Coincidentally, he has become very quiet since I pointed out the double-standard. Just because a player performs better in a head-to-head, doesn't automatically make them a better player.

Just because you're deluded, doesn't mean other people are applying double-standards.
Neither Coughlan, nor POM, have shown themselves to be better players than any of the starting Irish backrow, and Henry this season has shown he should be the benching backrower.
The fact that they've been outplayed this season just re-enforces that.

Foxtrol

phog wrote: »

When has POM played in a back row for Munster that could equal Leinster's or Ulster's, our backrow has been decimated with injury since the start of the season, not just one game. Has Leamy or Wallace started/played in a game this season? I doubt it.

When before last years Magners final had Murray ever outperformed Reddan?

I'm not doubting the effect playing in a weakened backrow has had on POM, I am however pointing out the double standard of some posters who completely discounted the Leinster squad "hangover" during the final as an explanation for Murray outplaying Reddan but are now using a weakened backrow as an excuse for why POM has been outplayed by his competition from both Ulster and Leinster.

yimrsg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He does have good ball control at the base, but many of the other roles of a specialist 8 involve ball carrying - An area where he has been below his own standards for a year or so.

His carrying from the base is either non-effective or he just doesn't do it. A large part of a specialist 8s play is to field kicks/dropoffs and get over the gain-line and get his team on the front foot while doing so. It is another area where his diminished carrying shines through.

It it the role of a general backrow forward where he shines. His role as a specialist 8, isn't of the same standard.

Picamoles, Morgan and Spies are those sort of ball carrying 8s essentially. But they don't offer much aside from that. Ireland have SOB, Healy and Ferris as ball carriers so picking an Irish ball carrying 8 (if one existed) is nearly a moot point. For kick returns, Kearney (and Nacewa for Leinster) field kicks so he doesn't get much opportunities to do kick returns. Besides both are far better broken field runners. Also you need someone to recycle ball at ruck time and having a forward clear out ball makes more sense a lot more sense than your fullback.

Heaslip is more like Keegan Daniel and some other Super Rugby 8s, a link up player with a touch of the groundhog about him, perhaps lacking that one outstanding attribute. When Haskell was playing for the highlanders, before he got his suspension for throwing fisticuffs, the Saffa commentators were gushing over him, mentioning his breakdown work. If he was getting plaudits for breakdown work, then Heaslip would be mentioned alongside players such as Pocock, Hooper or Brussow.

Wallace wasn't a typical 7 but that doesn't mean his worth to his team was any lower standard because he didn't fit the textbook definition of a 7. Heaslip is the closest Ireland have to a groundhog. I reckon this debate could be put to bed by giving him the 7 jersey and just play him at 8.

ongarite

With POC now out of the summer tours, looks like Kidney's hand has been forced (I hope) into shaking things up with the team selection.

Hope we see Touhy playing a starting role now

fitz

ongarite wrote: »

With POC now out of the summer tours, looks like Kidney's hand has been forced (I hope) into shaking things up with the team selection.

Hope we see Touhy playing a starting role now

Its Kidney.
The starting second row will be DOC and Ryan. Tuohy will be lucky to bench.

Cpt_Blackbeard

fitz wrote: »

Munster played Leinster three times in the pre-World Cup season.
You maintain Coughlan outplayed Heaslip that season and that this makes a double standard of my point about the Leinster back rower's un-precedented dominance leaving little room for people to argue that Heaslip and O'Brien are Irish starters on merit.

Funnily enough, Coughlan didn't even start the first game in the 2010/2011 season. The second game was all about the out-halves, and finished with a single point in the difference. The last game of that season was the ML final, when the Leinster team were clearly still hungover.
Your case for Coughlan outplaying Heaslip that season is far from cast-iron.


Just because you're deluded, doesn't mean other people are applying double-standards.
Neither Coughlan, nor POM, have shown themselves to be better players than anyof the starting Irish backrow, and Henry this season has shown he should be the benching backrower.
The fact that they've been outplayed this season just re-enforces that.

You are misinterpreting my point. Your point was that one player outperforming another in their head-to-heads would indicate that said player is better and anyone claiming otherwise is biased. I gave the example of Coughlan and Heaslip to prove that that is not necessarily the case - Coughlan out performed HEaslip but, he is not a better player.

Where have I stated that Coughlan or POM have shown themselves to be better players than the incumbent backrow?

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Id love to know what exactly Heaslip isn't doing as a specialist 8. His control of the ball is excellent, his defense off the back is probably the best in the world, his carrying off the back is technically top class and ball retention from his carrying there is pretty much 100%, which is what you need from an 8 off the scrum. What exactly more do you want? Do you want him to drive the rest of the pack single-handedly!?

He does have good ball control at the base, but many of the other roles of a specialist 8 involve ball carrying - An area where he has been below his own standards for a year or so.

His carrying from the base is either non-effective or he just doesn't do it. A large part of a specialist 8s play is to field kicks/dropoffs and get over the gain-line and get his team on the front foot while doing so. It is another area where his diminished carrying shines through.

It it the role of a general backrow forward where he shines. His role as a specialist 8, isn't of the same standard.

I think your opinion of what an 8 does is pretty removed from the professional game. And if it weren't then Leo Auva'a would be Leinsters starter!

Also, dropoffs and kickoffs are not the 8s responsibility in any setup ive ever been apart of!

Tox56

SOB takes restarts for Leinster (or at least he used to), for very obvious reasons, making Heaslip do it simply because he has an 8 on his back would be pointless.

fitz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

Munster played Leinster three times in the pre-World Cup season.
You maintain Coughlan outplayed Heaslip that season and that this makes a double standard of my point about the Leinster back rower's un-precedented dominance leaving little room for people to argue that Heaslip and O'Brien are Irish starters on merit.

Funnily enough, Coughlan didn't even start the first game in the 2010/2011 season. The second game was all about the out-halves, and finished with a single point in the difference. The last game of that season was the ML final, when the Leinster team were clearly still hungover.
Your case for Coughlan outplaying Heaslip that season is far from cast-iron.


Just because you're deluded, doesn't mean other people are applying double-standards.
Neither Coughlan, nor POM, have shown themselves to be better players than anyof the starting Irish backrow, and Henry this season has shown he should be the benching backrower.
The fact that they've been outplayed this season just re-enforces that.

You are misinterpreting my point. Your point was that one player outperforming another in their head-to-heads would indicate that said player is better and anyone claiming otherwise is biased. I gave the example of Coughlan and Heaslip to prove that that is not necessarily the case - Coughlan out performed HEaslip but, he is not a better player.

Where have I stated that Coughlan or POM have shown themselves to be better players than the incumbent backrow?

I'm misrepresenting your point?
I give up. You're long overdue for my ingore list anyway....

.ak

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Where have I stated that Coughlan or POM have shown themselves to be better players than the incumbent backrow?

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Whenever Heaslip and Coughlan met last season, Coughlan had the upper hand.

Just sayin'...

Fireball07

.ak wrote: »

Just sayin'...

Tbh...having the upper hand in head-to-heads does not mean that someone is saying one players is better than another.

I also believe that Coughlan was in better form than Heaslip last season. He was playing absolutely phenomenally. It doesn't mean I think he should have started ahead of Heaslip for Ireland or that he is a better player. Just that he was in better form.

totallegend

fitz wrote: »

Its Kidney.
The starting second row will be DOC and Ryan. Tuohy will be lucky to bench.

SURELY Tuohy has to start after his performance in the HC against his direct competitors? (Well, he has to start on the basis of his form for the last two years, but at least we know DK was watching the semi-final).

tolosenc

A last hurrah for MOD?

Unthinkable but for the incumbent coaching staff...

fitz

totallegend wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

Its Kidney.
The starting second row will be DOC and Ryan. Tuohy will be lucky to bench.

SURELY Tuohy has to start after his performance in the HC against his direct competitors? (Well, he has to start on the basis of his form for the last two years, but at least we know DK was watching the semi-final).

Would you really be surprised?

Tox56

DOC will start based on "experience".

armchaircoach

People who think that Heaslip is having an off year really need to stop listening to the panderings of George Hook and actually have a good focus on what he does contribute

1) Despite what people have been saying on here, Heaslip regularly collects defensive restarts.

2) His ground work has been nothing short of amazing, and in doing this he free's up others to run with the ball (Its not his fault that its usually either Murray or POC making their normal "impressive" 2 foot gains)

3) As above, he is perfect when linked to Ferris as we have a mixture of cunning groundwork and raw agression at rucktime

4) At scrum time he has great controll over the ball at the back of the scrum (going forward or backward), while also having good hands when linking up with either the scrumhalf or other players in a set piece move off the scrum

5) He is a very potent weapon at the back of the lineout, something that most people here are ignoring, with POC out we need to rethink our lineout and Heaslip will be one of the go to guys for this.

6) He does it less these days, but when he does run he shows good feet, good power, a good offload, and is surprisingly quick for a big guy. (see his break against edinbourgh for this)

7) He has obvious leadership abilities and I've also seen him cover defensivly almost every position on the pitch and not look uncomfortable.

Should a guy be dropped for a less experienced less tested (POM) or less experienced and older and slower (Coughlan) player just because he had the misfortune to set such an astronomically high standard of play by his performances?

In saying this I am perfectly willing to see him sit out games/half matches if that time is used positively for the developementof genuine future contenders.

thomond2006

Heaslip was ****ing awesome against Clermont.

leftleg

Tox56 wrote: »

DOC will start based on "experience".

lets not forget the "unseen" work as well

JustinDee

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

As with (nearly) every post on this post, it is an opinion, but that does not stop it being true. Whenever Heaslip and Coughlan met last season, Coughlan had the upper hand

How so? How exactly was Heaslip allegedly "outplayed" by Coughlan every match against each other? Turnovers? Tackle count? Carries? Line breaks? Hit ups? Passes? Curious to see how you'd like to prove this.
You will have to be a lot more specific than launching a throwaway comment suiting a particular point of view.
If Coughlan and Heaslip's usage in a gameplan was even similar, your claim might sport a tad more credence.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

How so? How exactly was Heaslip allegedly "outplayed" by Coughlan every match against each other? Turnovers? Tackle count? Carries? Line breaks? Hit ups? Passes? Curious to see how you'd like to prove this.
You will have to be a lot more specific than launching a throwaway comment suiting a particular point of view.
If Coughlan and Heaslip's usage in a gameplan was even similar, your claim might sport a tad more credence.

Hes probably devised one of those now infamous statistical tables based on information and probabilities using ratios and limits not even the strongest computer processors in use today could handle.

Banbridgeman

Coughlan over Heaslip and POM over Henry???? I do struggle sometimes to determine the seriousness of some posters. Heaslip and Henry have been two of the best backrowers in Europe this season. Henry schooled POM in the quarters he was a complete nuisance and slowed Munster ball to a standstill. In the words of sky sports, he was the one of the main reasons why Munster couldn't turn their possession into points. You'd swear it's Munster in the final here the way some posters go on! In my opinion the only Munster players who should start for Ireland are Ryan and maybe Earls (although I think Gilroy is more deserving)

Fireball07

Banbridgeman wrote: »

Coughlan over Heaslip and POM over Henry???? I do struggle sometimes to determine the seriousness of some posters. Heaslip and Henry have been two of the best backrowers in Europe this season. Henry schooled POM in the quarters he was a complete nuisance and slowed Munster ball to a standstill. In the words of sky sports, he was the one of the main reasons why Munster couldn't turn their possession into points. You'd swear it's Munster in the final here the way some posters go on! In my opinion the only Munster players who should start for Ireland are Ryan and maybe Earls (although I think Gilroy is more deserving)

Are people deliberately misinterpreting what people are saying??

The Coughlan thing was based on last season, not this season and no one said that Coughlan should be picked ahead of Heaslip.

And I don't remember anyone saying POM should be picked ahead of Henry either, although I would strongly disagree that Henry "schooled" POM. He was very good, I agree.


And suddenly POC shouldn't play for Ireland?????

clsmooth

Fireball07 wrote: »

Are people deliberately misinterpreting what people are saying??

The Coughlan thing was based on last season, not this season and no one said that Coughlan should be picked ahead of Heaslip.

And I don't remember anyone saying POM should be picked ahead of Henry either, although I would strongly disagree that Henry "schooled" POM. He was very good, I agree.


And suddenly POC shouldn't play for Ireland?????

Because he's injured. Or would you still play him?

Fireball07

clsmooth wrote: »

Because he's injured. Or would you still play him?

I wasn't only talking for the NZ tour...I was talking about the future in general.

Obviously Ryan and Tuohy is the logical partnership for the NZ tour. But for that, I would be inclined to experiment a bit anyway over the 3 tests. I'd give gametime to POM & Murray certainly. I would have said Jones too but he's playing poorly... while I do think he'll be the long-term 2nd choice 15 for Ireland, I'd bring Dave Kearney or someone instead. I wouldn't be against Zebo in the squad either.

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

clsmooth wrote: »

Because he's injured. Or would you still play him?

I wasn't only talking for the NZ tour...I was talking about the future in general.

Obviously Ryan and Tuohy is the logical partnership for the NZ tour. But for that, I would be inclined to experiment a bit anyway over the 3 tests. I'd give gametime to POM & Murray certainly. I would have said Jones too but he's playing poorly... while I do think he'll be the long-term 2nd choice 15 for Ireland, I'd bring Dave Kearney or someone instead. I wouldn't be against Zebo in the squad either.

I'd be very against Zebo in the squad if it meant Gilroy missing out, there is a pretty big gulf there.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

I'd be very against Zebo in the squad if it meant Gilroy missing out, there is a pretty big gulf there.

Well I suppose it depends on the size of the squad. It might all be in vain anyway, because Kidney might end up just picking the same old team again.