Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

Promac

3.35pm: Cameron says he is "deeply sorry".
3.34pm: None of the casualties was posing a threat of death or serious injury, Cameron says.
3.32pm: In no case was any warning given by soldiers, Cameron says.
3.32pm: Cameron says the conclusions are that what happened was unjustified and unjustifiable. "It was wrong." The first shot was fired by the British army.
3.31pm: In the Commons, Cameron is speaking now.

That's why.

gurramok

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

So what? I don't dispute any of that.

It seems here though that the lives of unionists or soldiers are somehow worth less than those of nationalists.

You have picked that up wrong.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There should have been a wide ranging truth and reconciliation commission in the north to examine the many atrocities committed by all sides but instead all they got was this expensive enquiry.

There wont be a wide ranging truth and reconciliation commission and you know well why. It will expose any dirty handling by state authorities in the matters.
This incident is just many of hundreds of fatal acts committed by state authorities that remain unanswered for. From an Unionist and British point of view, its best not to ruin the 'good name' of the security forces and this is the first time that good name is under serious investigation in the north.

caseyann

wes wrote: »

I have to say, I don't see why the cost of the inquiry matters. The cost of justice shouldn't matter imho. Personally, I think there needs to be prosecutions, and that a democratic state should hold itselfs to far higher standards than terrorist groups.

Yeah alot of the people will shout about how its ok to spend hundreds of thousands on Bogus asylum seekers,but complain when the money is used for something for Irish people who were murdered in cold blood.
Shows something doesn't it.

I know it wont heal the wounds for people and those who passed never to hear the truth come out.But hopefully it will let them rest in peace now and their families.And show up the other inhumane genocide on Irish people for so long,hiding behind excuse of its because of the IRA:rolleyes:

BlaasForRafa

karma_ wrote: »

Well lets face it, if you don't see much wrong with the killing of unarmed men on an aid flotilla I doubt you have much sympathy for those slain on Bloody Sunday.

You have no right to presume who I have sympathy for.

I grew up during the 80's and Sinn Fein/IRA used things like Bloody Sunday and the Hunger Strikes to drum up a lot of anti-British feeling. I used to be very much anti-British/anti-Unionist when I was a kid and felt good when I'd hear about a British soldier being shot but thankfully I grew out of that phase and recognised Sinn Fein/IRA for what they are.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is it disgusting?

It sounds to me as though no matter what the enquiry says, people have already made up their minds.

that general wrote:

By the time Blair offered this inquiry as a sop to Republicans

If it was a sop to Republicans, all the unarmed people who were murdered would of been IRA members. They were not. It was nothing to do with the IRA.

It was innocent people marching for their civil rights brutally shot for trying to get basic rights. Thats disgusting.

Sofa King Great

gurramok wrote: »

If it was a sop to Republicans, all the unarmed people who were murdered would of been IRA members. They were not. It was nothing to do with the IRA.

It was innocent people marching for their civil rights brutally shot for trying to get basic rights. Thats disgusting.

Republican =/= IRA

OS119

no immediate prosecutions - Cameron says AG decided in 99 that evidence/witness statements given to the enquiry cannot be used as prosecution evidence (except on issues of purjery).

amacachi

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I grew up during the 80's and Sinn Fein/IRA used things like Bloody Sunday and the Hunger Strikes to drum up a lot of anti-British feeling. I used to be very much anti-British/anti-Unionist when I was a kid and felt good when I'd hear about a British soldier being shot but thankfully I grew out of that phase and recognised Sinn Fein/IRA for what they are.

Aye, the British didn't bring any of the anti-British sentiment on themselves.:rolleyes:


I'm torn on this, it's a ridiculous amount of money to be spent, and in a way it's hard to reconcile this with the whole moving-on buzz that's meant to be policy up there, but the UK Government should've ****ing copped themselves on long ago and admit what happened.

Byron85

Writing in today's Daily Mail, the General - who was a captain in the Coldstream Guards and in Derry when the shootings took place - warned any trials will destroy the morale of troops in Afghanistan.
'They will be asking themselves whether each time they open fire on the Taliban, they might not, in some distant future inquiry, be asked to justify their actions. That is no way to go to war,' he said.

Former army officer and ex-shadow defence secretary Patrick Mercer has also warned prosecutions would 'set a dangerous precedent'.

This comes across as emotional and political blackmail. We can't criticise the killing of innocent civilians in Ireland 30 years ago because it will affect the morale of troops in Afghanistan? Pull the other one. God forbid that soldiers need to be held responsible for indiscriminately firing on civilians.

Wolfe Tone

Quite surprised. Did not expect to see an apology quite like that.

BlaasForRafa

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

This comes across as emotional and political blackmail. We can't criticise the killing of innocent civilians in Ireland 30 years ago because it will affect the morale of troops in Afghanistan? Pull the other one. God forbid that soldiers need to be held responsible for indiscriminately firing on civilians.

I don't see how it will affect anyone in Afghanistan or any other theatre. Why should any current troops be affected by a 38 year old case?

citytillidie

in the city centre its fantastic that the wrong has been made right and the truth is out now that all those who died are innocent and the world knows at long last

amacachi

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

This comes across as emotional and political blackmail. We can't criticise the killing of innocent civilians in Ireland 30 years ago because it will affect the morale of troops in Afghanistan? Pull the other one. God forbid that soldiers need to be held responsible for indiscriminately firing on civilians.

He can **** right off tbh. That statement should be met with nothing but derision.

Promac

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Quite surprised. Did not expect to see an apology quite like that.

Same here. The families must be pleased with it.

Still the question of legal action to cover though.

gurramok

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Republican =/= IRA

In British/Unionist eyes, Republican=IRA. (try telling a FF'er that )

BlaasForRafa

amacachi wrote: »

Aye, the British didn't bring any of the anti-British sentiment on themselves.:rolleyes:


I'm torn on this, it's a ridiculous amount of money to be spent, and in a way it's hard to reconcile this with the whole moving-on buzz that's meant to be policy up there, but the UK Government should've ****ing copped themselves on long ago and admit what happened.

I think my problem is more with the selectivity of what constitutes a crime worthy of investigation. The nazis and japanese were indicted for war crimes after world war 2 but no soviets were despite the crimes they commited. Its a different scale of events but a £100m+ investigation into one incident in a conflict when there were many incidents worthy of investigation just seems out of kilter a bit.

Wolfe Tone

Promac wrote: »

Same here. The families must be pleased with it.

Still the question of legal action to cover though.

They should follow. Quite clear that the soldiers acted wrongly, then lied about their actions.

Nodin

Mr Cameron said:

• No warning had been given to any civilians before the soldiers opened fire

• None of the soldiers fired in response to attacks by petrol bombers or stone throwers

• Some of those killed or injured were clearly fleeing or going to help those injured or dying
• None of the casualties was posing a threat or doing anything that would justify their shooting
• There was no point in trying to soften or equivocate - the events of Bloody Sunday were not justified
• Many of the soldiers lied about their actions
• What happened should never, ever have happened
• Some members of the British armed forces acted wrongly
• On behalf of the government and the country, he said he was "deeply sorry"
• The events of Bloody Sunday were not premeditated

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10320609.stm

Hundreds would be alive today if they'd done this right the first time.

invinciblePRSTV

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You have no right to presume who I have sympathy for.

I grew up during the 80's and Sinn Fein/IRA used things like Bloody Sunday and the Hunger Strikes to drum up a lot of anti-British feeling. I used to be very much anti-British/anti-Unionist when I was a kid and felt good when I'd hear about a British soldier being shot but thankfully I grew out of that phase and recognised Sinn Fein/IRA for what they are.

SF/IRA had nothing to with Bloody Sunday, the British Army killed 13 innocent civilians, do you have sympathy for them?

BlaasForRafa

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

SF/IRA had nothing to with Bloody Sunday, the British Army killed 13 innocent civilians, do you have sympathy for them?

Yes I do. And SF/IRA were there on that day with guns and bombs although as the report says the death of the marchers was entirely the fault of the soldiers. The report is damning in that regard.

The IRA did capitalise on the killings though and that cannot surely be doubted. They used it in a cynical recruiting drive which ended up in the murders of many more people. None of which justifies the actions of the soldiers but it is a point that has to be made. The killings on Bloody Sunday were not a justification for the IRA to go out and murder people.

amacachi

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think my problem is more with the selectivity of what constitutes a crime worthy of investigation. The nazis and japanese were indicted for war crimes after world war 2 but no soviets were despite the crimes they commited. Its a different scale of events but a £100m+ investigation into one incident in a conflict when there were many incidents worthy of investigation just seems out of kilter a bit.

Let's just stay on the one conflict if we can, what the Russians did and had done to them was disgusting without a doubt.

People down here don't know what it was actually like up there and never will, even I can't say what it would've been like up there at the time. Off the top of my head I can't think of many other incidents that require an inquiry like this. In most cases the perpetrators were caught. If more people this side of the border were more informed there may well be public pressure for inquiries into many of the Gardaí's actions through the years as well.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes I do. And SF/IRA were there on that day with guns and bombs although as the report says the death of the marchers was entirely the fault of the soldiers. .

...then why do you keep dragging the RA into it?

nessie911

fryup wrote: »

exactly, do we really have to go on and on about past misdeads

i mean millions upon millions was spent on Bloody Sunday inquiry is it going to bring back the deceased >no........surely that money would have been better spent on hospitals, schools, job creation etc something constructive

and if we are going to go down that route why not have an inquiry into bloody friday as well:cool:

I would like to see you moving on if that was your brother or father or family member who had been called a terrorist, Like the Widger report had found that all the people who had been killed were involved in terrorist attacks. The families needed justice of some form, and i'm so happy that they have finally gotten the innocent verdict that they got.


From the Saville Report: "What happened on Bloody Sunday strengthened the Provisional IRA, increased nationalist resentment and hostility towards the army and exacerbated the violent conflict of the years that followed. Bloody Sunday was a tragedy for the bereaved and the wounded, and a catastrophe for the people of Northern Ireland."

amacachi

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The killings on Bloody Sunday were not a justification for the IRA to go out and murder people.

Of course not.


Who is this **** on Sky News at the moment?

invinciblePRSTV

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes I do. And SF/IRA were there on that day with guns and bombs although as the report says the death of the marchers was entirely the fault of the soldiers. The report is damning in that regard.

Its irrelevant to mention that the IRA were in Derry that day so i don't know why you even mention it tbh, the march was organised by the NICRA.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The IRA did capitalise on the killings though and that cannot surely be doubted. They used it in a cynical recruiting drive which ended up in the murders of many more people. None of which justifies the actions of the soldiers but it is a point that has to be made. The killings on Bloody Sunday were not a justification for the IRA to go out and murder people.

It's easy to say that in 2010 but i'd recommend reading some literature and books about the period to give an insight as to what living in late 1960s Derry was like before alleging the IRA 'cynically' recruited people, if anything it's the complete opposite with people wishing to join any group/organisation willing to defend Nationalist Derry.

Promac

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes I do. And SF/IRA were there on that day with guns and bombs although as the report says the death of the marchers was entirely the fault of the soldiers. The report is damning in that regard.

The IRA did capitalise on the killings though and that cannot surely be doubted. They used it in a cynical recruiting drive which ended up in the murders of many more people. None of which justifies the actions of the soldiers but it is a point that has to be made. The killings on Bloody Sunday were not a justification for the IRA to go out and murder people.

There was no recruitment drive needed after bloody sunday - people were signing up in droves on their own. People were driven to retaliation, in the only way they knew how. For some that was signing up for SF or the SDLP but for others it was joining the IRA.

amacachi

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's easy to say that in 2010 but i'd recommend reading some literature and books about the period to give an insight as to what living in late 1960s Derry was like before alleging the IRA 'cynically' recruited people, if anything it's the complete opposite with people wishing to join any group/organisation willing to defend Nationalist Derry.

Exactly, it's not like they needed to go out and make an effort, who wouldn't consider joining if people you had been marching with were shot by your own government?

gsxr1

As a Derry man and a friend to some of the victims family, I would like to congratulate the good people of Derry and spit in the face of the British Army.

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes I do. And SF/IRA were there on that day with guns and bombs although as the report says the death of the marchers was entirely the fault of the soldiers. The report is damning in that regard.

The IRA did capitalise on the killings though and that cannot surely be doubted. They used it in a cynical recruiting drive which ended up in the murders of many more people. None of which justifies the actions of the soldiers but it is a point that has to be made. The killings on Bloody Sunday were not a justification for the IRA to go out and murder people.

The report has quite categorically stated that the British army was 100% responsible, and that there was no justification whatsoever for the deaths.

So could you by any chance, stick on topic and acknowledge the elephant in the room.

maccored

its about time this came out. at least we wont have to listen to that 'they shot at us' bullsh!t anymore.