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Saorview Content Speculation

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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It seems to me that they don't intend ever any simulcast. Saves nearly 2Mbps.

    Also means people MUST have real Saorview/Saorsat (at least HD compatible) from day 1. No long change over simulcast and waste of bandwith that Sky, Freesat and Freeview face.

    You don't need an HD TV. The automatically downsampled HD to SCART (RGB mode recommended) and regular TV will also be 30% to 50% better picture quality than regular SD transmissions so all viewers "win".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Sure why would RTE bother with DTT HD? Didn't Bob Collins say that SD is better than the BBC HD?

    No point in wasting bandwidth now is there? ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Look what a mess the beeb have with their HD channel, it is not listed in the TV listings

    Listed in the Radio Times every week and I think TV Times as well


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    mike65 wrote: »
    Sure why would RTE bother with DTT HD? Didn't Bob Collins say that SD is better than the BBC HD?

    No point in wasting bandwidth now is there? ;)

    He forgot to mention he was watching it on a 22" TV screen:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    He forgot to mention he was watching it on a 22" TV screen:)

    .... and rose tinted specs.:)


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Listed in the Radio Times every week and I think TV Times as well

    I do not get either. The Irish times give listings that suit cable and sky, but not Freesat. Most of the listings are for channels on payTV, but omit many chanels that are FTA on satellite. The Sunday Times does a little better, but not much. Neither lists BBC HD.

    The Irish Times treats E3 as a real channel, even though it is a cable channel with a capture of less than 1% of the viewers.

    Who decides this sort of thing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I use http://www.digiguide.com/
    I buy it once a year for less than a weeks newspapers or a few months RTE Guide.

    All Irish and UK channels


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    The Irish Times treats E3 as a real channel, even though it is a cable channel with a capture of less than 1% of the viewers.

    Who decides this sort of thing?

    Dubliners:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    Dubliners:D

    Ill be glad to have 3e in the first official DTT lineup no matter - i miss not having sky :mad::(


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    Also means people MUST have real Saorview/Saorsat (at least HD compatible) from day 1.

    They seemed to suggest during the presentation that the HD output would be on DTT only. Although they may consider Saorsat as an 'extension' of DTT.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    My Interpretation:
    The Saorsat is going to be used as backup feed and as extension to coverage, a "clone" that uses Dish where aerial doesn't work. Thus logically it will be HD at same times.

    France has used Satellite feeds that require no transcoding.. simply have the exact resolution, bitrate, MPEG2-TS (with the MPEG4 etc in it) and "pipe" MPEG2-TS via BNC ASI connection from Sat receiver to ASI in on COFDM modulator and UHF upconvertor. Saves a fortune at the transmission sites. Otherwise you would need €1M worth of headend at every TX site.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Ill be glad to have 3e in the first official DTT lineup no matter(

    Where has it been officially announced that 3e will be on free DTT ?

    this has been just speculation as far as I know?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    I do not get either. The Irish times give listings that suit cable and sky, but not Freesat. Most of the listings are for channels on payTV, but omit many chanels that are FTA on satellite. The Sunday Times does a little better, but not much. Neither lists BBC HD.

    The Irish Times treats E3 as a real channel, even though it is a cable channel with a capture of less than 1% of the viewers.

    Who decides this sort of thing?

    There is quite a good and comprehensive tv guide magazine in THE SUN every Saturday. It's only 1€, so you don't feel guilty about binning the rest of the paper !


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    They definately said 9 channels to the Committe

    Quote from here https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/7609/120372.doc
    Proposed Digital Free-To-Air Channels
    We are still finalising the channel line up that will be available on both the DTT and Satellite systems. A potential service line up could include the following:
    
    Television	              Radio
    RTÉ One	                  RTÉ Radio 1
    RTÉ Two (HD light)        RTÉ Radio 1 Extra
    TV3	                      RTÉ 2 FM
    TG4	                      RTÉ RnaG
    RTÉ News Now	          RTÉ Lyric FM
    RTÉ 1+1/Children/Euronews RTÉ Choice
    3e	                      RTÉ Gold
    RTÉ Digital Teletext	  RTÉ Junior/RTÉ Chill
    	                      RTÉ Pulse/RTÉ 2xm
    
    It is envisaged that the 2nd National Multiplex will facilitate a more extended roll out of High-Definition television and other services
    
    

    Stated elsewhere
    The "9" channels as listed by Conor Hayes RTÉ Chief Financial Officer:

    (1) RTÉ 1
    (2) RTÉ 2
    (HD light - sports/events part-time)
    (3) TV3
    (4) TG4
    (5) RTÉ News Now
    (6),(7)&(8) Mixed Stream: Euronews (night), RTÉ Childrens (ad free) (daytime) and RTÉ 1 +1 (evening)
    (9) 3e

    RTÉ Digital Teletext

    12 RTÉ Digital Radio Channels

    Or possibly and more likely
    (1) RTÉ 1
    (2) RTÉ 2
    (3) TV3
    (4) TG4
    (5) RTÉ News Now
    (6),(7)&(8) Mixed Stream: Euronews (night), RTÉ Childrens (ad free) (daytime) and RTÉ 1 +1 (evening)
    (9) 3e
    HD light - sports/special events part-time replacing RTE2 (maybe sometimes RTE1), and possibly RTE News Now and Mixed Stream till 2nd Mux operational. RTE News now could switch to very low bandwidth "slides" during HD transmission till 2nd Mux starts.

    There isn't enough bitrate to have a real HD channel on one mux without temporarily removing 3 other channels. The HD content will be a Sport/Special event that would be on RTE1 or RTE2 analogue, so I am fairly confident that till the 2nd Mux starts end 2011 or start 2012 that is how the HD will work.

    So people need a HD DTT box that downsamples to SD even if no HDTV. The Saorview spec calls for such a setbox as minimum. The Soarsat is simply a copy of Saorview via dish for those that can't get an aerial signal.

    The HD is thus not an extra channel in sense that BBC HD has been. Eventually RTE1 and RTE2 will both be HD full time, or mostly full time.

    In one sense there are only six channels as 3 are different branding at different times on one channel.

    So looks likely Oireachtas TV and regular HD on both RTE channels waits till 2nd mux is running.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    I cannot see how they will sell DTT with this lineup. It will almost certainly be more "stick" and less "carrot", which will not go down well with a General Election due in switch-off year.

    So the channel line-up will be:

    -RTÉ One, RTÉ Two, TV3, and TG4 - the existing services.
    -RTÉ News Now - the most mis-named service in TV news history. Depending on the time of the day you're watching, it could be RTÉ News an hour ago, three hours, ago, or even yesterday! Carries little or no content you cannot see on RTÉ One or RTÉ Two.
    -A mix-and-match channel containing Euronews, The Den, and RTÉ One+1. 2/3rds of this content, you'll see elsewhere. They might as well put Euronews on full time, at least it would be a new channel.
    -3e IF TV3 can clear the rights (currently it is pay-TV).
    Maybe RTÉ HD later, but we don't really know what format that will take.

    How are they going to sell this to a public watching their wallets.

    - "So why should I spend money upgrading to digital"
    - "Well, er, you get three new channels"
    - "Only three???? Better there than none, I suppose. What are they???"
    - "Well, there's a news channel"
    - "O cool, 24 hour news from RTÉ. So I'll get up-to-the-minute coverage of news events, like Sky News?"
    - "Well, not really, it just repeats news bulletins from RTÉ One".
    - "Oh, alright. What's the second one"
    - "Well, its divided in three, in the morning there's Euronews"
    - "Another news channel, great! What else"
    - "During the day, it'll be the Den"
    - "That's good for the kids, but er, isn't that already on?"
    - "Yeah, it'll just simulcast RTÉ Two"
    - "What's the point of that when there's only 7 channels"
    - "Dunno. Anyway, there's also RTÉ One+1"
    - "Isn't that just RTÉ One an hour later?"
    - "Er, yes. We also have 3e"
    - "Oh, I've heard about that. Lots of American shows. Well, one new channel isn't bad. Is there any other reason I should pay €100 of my hard earned cash for this?"
    - "Better picture"
    - "Na, sure I'm happy with my picture the way its. Goodbye"
    - "Wait, wait...if you don't buy this, you won't get ANY TV in a year's time"
    - "What why. Who decided this"
    - "The Government"...
    - "But I'm only getting one new channel, whats the point. Why are they taking my TV away from me..."
    (Customer goes home and gets onto his TD...)

    A bit facetious, but illustrating how hard the sell will be to the man on the street. This will go down like a lead baloon with the general public I fear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,110 ✭✭✭John mac


    Sounds about right. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    icdg wrote: »
    I cannot see how they will sell DTT with this lineup

    They are not trying to sell anything , it's an obligation they are required to meet.

    For those switching from analogue the equipment is not that expensive, freeview/TNT HD boxes can be got on pixmania for 75-85 euro delivered if not cheaper. Depending on location new users may only need Rabbit ears about 20 euro and the chances are existing aerials will be fine too.

    Those wanting a Free UK Sat and Irish DTT channels who go the combo route will be getting a channels line-up nearly as good if not better than the basic packages offered by pay TV providers, 9 of the top 10 channels viewed on Irish TVs will be available free.

    It's about choice those who want a quality digital service who don't want the extra sport or movie packs will be happy and can see a return of investment between after about 18 months to 2 years.

    The 2nd mux will add more to the line up eithers channels or HD broadcasts, personal I'd rather see more HD broadcast than more channel


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    icdg wrote: »
    I
    - "So why should I spend money upgrading to digital"

    Because there will be no Analogue, at all whatsoever.

    This isn't a multichannel competitor to Sky/UPC. It's replacement for analogue.

    There should be a subsidy or even free to some, especially in areas with no terrestrial.

    I think...

    If in area that RTENL says has no DTT, then presentation of TV licence should give you free setbox and install for Satellite or ELSE If you live ANYWHERE and have a medical card (i.e. already means tested) then presentation of TV licence should give you free setbox for terrestrial.
    Collected Soarsat posts and some comment http://www.techtir.ie/watty/soartv


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭Finne1993


    jobyrne30 wrote: »
    For those switching from analogue the equipment is not that expensive, freeview/TNT HD boxes can be got on pixmania for 75-85 euro delivered if not cheaper. Depending on location new users may only need Rabbit ears about 20 euro and the chances are existing aerials will be fine too.

    Just adding my bit about the cost here:

    I'm just gonna use my area as an example here, I live in the Cooley peninsula in Co Louth, believe it or not the majority here get their RTE from Three Rock as for the most part Clermont Carn is blocked by the Cooley Mountains, others in the Carlingford/Omeath area receive their RTE 1&2 and TG4 from a relay in Greenore.

    Now almost all aerials pointing to Three Rock here are amplified UHF group A aerials, they will not pick up the DTT tests/trials from either Kippure/Three Rock, these will have to be changed to group C/D aerials and everyone here has their aerial diplexed with a group B to receive Kilkeel (which will be going Digital in 2012). That means these houses will have to change an aerial, a diplexer and possibly a masthead amp also before they start to look at the prices of a STB. A lot of expense I'm sure you'll agree.

    Now as for the people in Carlingford/Omeath who can't even see Three Rock or Kippure they're in a worse situation as its highly likely the Greenore relay won't be upgraded for DTT and they'll be depending on the Saorsat system for their Irish channels which will mean them having to get a STB for the UK channels from Kilkeel and another dish & STB to receive the Irish channels, 2 boxes, god knows how many remotes and a serious pain in the head with annoyance!! Now I know combo boxes are available but lets be honest they're not the simplest to operate especially for an older person who just wants to press 1 on the TV for BBC1 or 5 for RTE1, It will take an awful lot of explaining and patience to teach someone how to simply switch channels now, I'm not looking forward to the inevitable calls asking why their TV is'nt working whenever the analogue signal is switched off.
    Dealing with people who have DTT from Three Rock and Kilkeel and who are using simple Freeview/Soarview HD boxes mighten be too bad.

    The reason I say all this is that I'm in a relatively small rural area, how many more pockets of rural areas in the country will be in the same predicament as here? I think people are underestimating the costs that will be involved (especially people who have more than 2 TV's in their house) and the annoyance factor this whole switchover will bring, we're just over two years away from the shutdown of the analogue signal and the average Joe Soap on the street has'nt a clue about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭Mr McBoatface


    @ Finne1993 - I did say for "many" in my post but I take your point about DTT in your area and similar. I've seen and used a number of combo boxes and introduced many older relatives to them, all had no problems using them and found them to be suitable for their needs.

    The true cost of Saorview or Saorsat to the consumer is at the moment is an unknown as there may be subsidies for new equipment. People in area's like you mentioned need those in know to lobby politicians and TD's to ensure that grants and subsidies are given.

    Saorview/Saorsat will be a major improvement over analogue services and while there may be annoyance for some people for other when combined with freesat/FTA sat it will make Free TV a very attractive package. 9/10 of the current top viewed TV stations in Ireland will be available on non-sub digital TV. Ultimately the pain will be worth it ( I hope :) )


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Finne1993 wrote: »
    Just adding my bit about the cost here:

    I'm just gonna use my area as an example here, I live in the Cooley peninsula in Co Louth, believe it or not the majority here get their RTE from Three Rock as for the most part Clermont Carn is blocked by the Cooley Mountains, others in the Carlingford/Omeath area receive their RTE 1&2 and TG4 from a relay in Greenore.

    Now almost all aerials pointing to Three Rock here are amplified UHF group A aerials, they will not pick up the DTT tests/trials from either Kippure/Three Rock, these will have to be changed to group C/D aerials and everyone here has their aerial diplexed with a group B to receive Kilkeel (which will be going Digital in 2012). That means these houses will have to change an aerial, a diplexer and possibly a masthead amp also before they start to look at the prices of a STB. A lot of expense I'm sure you'll agree.

    Now as for the people in Carlingford/Omeath who can't even see Three Rock or Kippure they're in a worse situation as its highly likely the Greenore relay won't be upgraded for DTT and they'll be depending on the Saorsat system for their Irish channels which will mean them having to get a STB for the UK channels from Kilkeel and another dish & STB to receive the Irish channels, 2 boxes, god knows how many remotes and a serious pain in the head with annoyance!! Now I know combo boxes are available but lets be honest they're not the simplest to operate especially for an older person who just wants to press 1 on the TV for BBC1 or 5 for RTE1, It will take an awful lot of explaining and patience to teach someone how to simply switch channels now, I'm not looking forward to the inevitable calls asking why their TV is'nt working whenever the analogue signal is switched off.
    Dealing with people who have DTT from Three Rock and Kilkeel and who are using simple Freeview/Soarview HD boxes mighten be too bad.

    The reason I say all this is that I'm in a relatively small rural area, how many more pockets of rural areas in the country will be in the same predicament as here? I think people are underestimating the costs that will be involved (especially people who have more than 2 TV's in their house) and the annoyance factor this whole switchover will bring, we're just over two years away from the shutdown of the analogue signal and the average Joe Soap on the street has'nt a clue about it.

    What a predictament. I am not being in anyway smart with you but a LOT of people around the country dont have the advantages of cross border terrestrial reception. They have to install a sat dish. Infact, Most arent aware of a combo box and actually pay for their stations via UPC or Sky!!!

    The combo box is simple and can involve pressing numbers or using the up and down button. My 71 year old father uses one !

    ONE combo Box will do both! no need for 2 boxes!

    And Finne, change is good. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭Finne1993


    Sorry, it may have come across that I was criticising your previous post, I was'nt, I was just making an observation based on the many threads I've read on this subject.

    IMO there will be an awful lot of unhappy people throughout the country when the realise they have to add a STB and possibly change their aerial set up to watch TV, I don't doubt this change will benefit us all when it is fully implemented and up and running but at the minute there is so little public awareness about the changeover, never mind the possible costs.

    There is going to be a huge amount of unhappy people when they find out their plasma/LCD that sits nicely on the wall will need a STB stuck underneath or a above it!!

    Going by the houses I've worked in in the last 6 months I would estimate ony about 5-10% of TV's have MPEG4, not a problem to a lot of people who have Sky hooked up to them but it is in their second, third and fourth TV's in the houses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭Finne1993


    STB wrote: »
    What a predictament. I am not being in anyway smart with you but a LOT of people around the country dont have the advantages of cross border terrestrial reception. They have to install a sat dish. Infact, Most arent aware of a combo box and actually pay for their stations via UPC or Sky!!!

    The combo box is simple and can involve pressing numbers or using the up and down button. My 71 year old father uses one !

    ONE combo Box will do both! no need for 2 boxes!

    And Finne, change is good. :)

    I did'nt mean to focus so much on the cross border reception but some people will have to change their aerial set up regardless of whether they use 1,2 or 3 aerials or wherever in the country they live.

    I know quite a few have Sky/UPC but as I said a problem is setting up extra TV's in the house, not everyone who has Sky has multiroom, I'd imagine ony a small percentage of Sky subscribers have multiroom, the vast majority of houses I've been in has at least 4 TV's.

    I know one combo box will do, I said the option is 2 set top boxes OR a combo box.

    Change is good, I'm not saying its not, I for one am looking forward to all the developments that will take place over the next few years, I'm just taking a look at these changes from Joe Publics viewpoint, its all well and good all us posters saying how easy all of this is as we're all enthusiasts/ tech freaks/ installers or whatever, We take great interest in it all and find it simple.

    This is of course just my own opinion, I may be wrong, things may very well run smoothly and with no complications, I doubt it though, there is a very uninformed public out there who know little or nothing about these changes and the possible expense they will incur.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Since the Government will reap the reward of the digital Dividend, they should compensate people for the changeover, particularly in areas that need different aerials or saorsat (dish based satellite reception) when terrestrial reception is not available.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Finne1993 wrote: »

    Now almost all aerials pointing to Three Rock here are amplified UHF group A aerials, they will not pick up the DTT tests/trials from either Kippure/Three Rock, these will have to be changed to group C/D aerials and everyone here has their aerial diplexed with a group B to receive Kilkeel (which will be going Digital in 2012).

    The correct aerial for 3Rock is a group W, as TG4 is up in the 50's along with DTT. Installers put group A in Dublin for reasons that escape me, as RTENL reccomend a group W. [Probably a cheap contract aerial]

    The basic undestanding I have is that if you can receive TG4 analogue, then DTT wil be received. Also, 60% of people will receive a good enough signal from 'rabbit ears'.

    The other 10% or so will not get it in launch, and 30% will need aerials. The 2% or more will never get it and will need Saorsat.

    Currently, a lot of fuss is being made by the pay TV providers about HD. If RTE launched with HD on RTE1 and 2, which was only available from DTT, it would give a huge impetus to the installation of DTT equipment.

    But DTT must be launched with imagination, enthusiasm and flair, so that the gainsayers and knockers are defeated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    But DTT must be launched with imagination, enthusiasm and flair, so that the gainsayers and knockers are defeated.

    Ultimately the content on DTT will make it a success or failure - and the current line up simply doesn't cut it.

    There is also a reluctance to change - if viewers have not already taken up the option of UPC/Sky can you really see them forking out money for DTT.

    2012 - thats an election yeae as well ?! - Forget the economy - TV is a far more vote winning topic - interesting times ahead !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's not a competing Commercial Pay Platform.

    DTT is simply a replacement for Analogue TV! Unlike FM-VHF Radio, the Analogue TV WILL be turned off.

    Everywhere is doing it. USA and Netherlands have completed as have many other places. All of Wales is Digital only.

    Your argument only applies to Pay DTT, which we always knew was doomed to be a failure even if it had launched.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,378 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    It's not a competing Commercial Pay Platform.

    DTT is simply a replacement for Analogue TV! Unlike FM-VHF Radio, the Analogue TV WILL be turned off.

    Your argument only applies to Pay DTT, which we always knew was doomed to be a failure even if it had launched.

    Well, if RTE measure their success or failure by viewers, then DTT will increase their numbers significantly if the take-up is significant. It will be if they launch RTE1 and RTE2 in HD, as , for example, if the World Cup was shown in HD. The Olympics is coming, and rugby is going FTA for Irish matches (if we beleive the minister), all of which will help RTE numbers. All will be better appreciated if broadcast in HD by RTE. They should push for the second MUX at launch.

    If DTT is just a replacement for analogue, with the addition of 3E, heaven help them. Another wasted opportunity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    watty wrote: »
    DTT is simply a replacement for Analogue TV! Unlike FM-VHF Radio, the Analogue TV WILL be turned off.

    I agree it will be turned off BUT I would not be so certain that it will happen in 2012 - this is Ireland after all and political needs will come first


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    Well, if RTE measure their success or failure by viewers, then DTT will increase their numbers significantly if the take-up is significant. It will be if they launch RTE1 and RTE2 in HD, as , for example, if the World Cup was shown in HD.

    Don't follow that logic at all - how will DTT increase viewing numbers as it only replaces whats already there , and those relying on DTT are hardly going to be impressed with 'HD'.

    As it stands this has disaster written all over it - I would expect changes and further announcements


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