Saorview Content Speculation

In the old days

scath wrote: »

The channels you mentioned In the Old days would be subscription channels so they will not happen. The most we can hope for is news channels and afew others.

Probabally won't happen for CNBC or Eurosport I agree but I was thinking a sports channel and general business/entertainment channel would add to the PSB mix and the 2 BBCs *could possibly* come under the reciprocal agreement along with an expanded RTE news channel to make a reasonable MUX. Eurosport were always keen to be an analogue channel on Cablelink (still broadcasts free in English on analogue Sat!) and CNBC is broadcast FTA on many Satellites so I would have thought they would be happy to gain a good few thousand terrestrial views without charging, similarly CNN etc.. Obviously objections etc. could make this a non runner but we are only speculating!!!.

scath

In the old days wrote: »

Probabally won't happen for CNBC or Eurosport I agree but I was thinking a sports channel and general business/entertainment channel would add to the PSB mix and the 2 BBCs *could possibly* come under the reciprocal agreement along with an expanded RTE news channel to make a reasonable MUX. Eurosport were always keen to be an analogue channel on Cablelink (still broadcasts free in English on analogue Sat!) and CNBC is broadcast FTA on many Satellites so I would have thought they would be happy to gain a good few thousand terrestrial views without charging, similarly CNN etc.. Obviously objections etc. could make this a non runner but we are only speculating!!!.

Absolutely In the old days. This is where an extra mux now taken from the BAI would be good. But from my enquiry to RTÉ an extra mux hasn't been considered beyond the 2 muxes, with the HD one from ASO for now. I do think it should be and as you suggest Eurosport, CNN, France24,AJÉ, BBC World, Vault (pop music), BBC NI1&2, UTV, C4.

Problem is programme rights. BBC would be seeking royalty payments and would have to be instructed by the new DCMS Minister not to charge the ROI. Alternatively it could be taken out of the TV license with it increased. Forseeably then that would not apply only to UPC but to Saorview DTT also. ESB Networks could collect it via the bills from viewers. An extra mux would be needed. That would require an order to ComReg from the Minister I assume and a change to the relevant BAI section. But I think it would be a good idea to strengthen the Saorview offering.

scath

watty wrote: »

You can get LG phones that do DTT. If you put all the Radio on DTT, then DAB would be a poorer quality duplication

I have suggested to RTÉ to consider linking up with mobile operators for Radio DTT on mobiles. From talking to someone in 02 they would be cool with that too as it is done in Germany. However coming to an agreement as to charges for usage is another issue. But it is spectrum efficient. In that case then why DAB? Topology is the only issue also. Also DVB-H is foreseen. This is why serious consideration should be given to ComReg not bothering with DVB-H which the model is being questioned anyhow and linking up with Saorview.

Presumably mobile operators could link up with Sky on a commercial DTT service and make that work. Currently its 3G Mobile TV but they did trials for DVB-H. 3G lets them get mobile TV off the ground but DTT access would allow them free up 3G for more interactive stuff and wouldn't have contention issues. I gather mobiles are able to cope now with DTT following improvements, probably even more so with DVB-T2 meaning DVB-H isn't probably needed.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

The rest of the sites will only have one Mux.

The extra 3 will be switched off to save massive electric bill.

I am not suggesting that they use all four, but they are due a second one after ASO, so why not now? The second mux would allow RTE1+2 to be HD only, with about 10 or so other channels. That would guarantee the success of SAORview as a platform.

watty

Makes sense to me but it's up to our Glorious Leader(s).

Saorview's success is 100% assured, because it will be the ONLY way to get TG4, TV3, RTE1 and RTE2 without a subscription in 3 or 4 years time.

BBC is a non-runner on free DTT. The royalties are not much. It's the extra transmission costs. I and most of the country certainly don't wish a tax or licence hike to pay for what anyone with a 50cm dish and sat box all costing under €70 can get for free. Or pay a bit more once off for BBC HD and a Freesat PVR.

watty

scath wrote: »

I have suggested to RTÉ to consider linking up with mobile operators for Radio DTT on mobiles. From talking to someone in 02 they would be cool with that too as it is done in Germany.

RTE wouldn't like it. That is what has killed DAB and DVB-h in Germany.

frankymail

icdg wrote: »

Feel free to speculate on what content will be on the free-to-air digital terrestrial television platform, which the powers that be have stupidly decided to name "Saorview" (thus leaving anyone that doesn't speak Irish confused as to what "Saor" means and leaving those that DO speak Irish annoyed that it wasn't called "Saorfeach". But that's neither hear nor there).

I'll start the ball rolling by predicting that there will be no additional TV channels other than RTÉ News Now, at least initially.

I'd be more annoyed if they called is "Saorfeach".. that doesnt make sense. :rolleyes:

scath

Wouldn't be Saorfeach as Saorfeach would translate to Freelook. Would be Saoramharc. I guess they reckoned its as near to Freeview without having to get a license from the UK. I mean they could have got a license as Freeview Ireland. But I guess the confusion of same would be a problem. Saorview strikes the balance I suppose.

frankymail

The Logo is cat too. Pure CAIC

I think 3e will be added and nothing else for the time being. I could maybe possibly see a third channel somewhere along the line for RTE. The RTE Sport brand would work well but the market seems saturated with Setanta and Sky, maybe we could see an all entertainment station from RTE, branded as RTE Ten, like their new entertainment website division.

It's a hard one to judge. I think a On Demand, TV version of the RTE Player would be a much better use of resources.

Sam Russell

frankymail wrote: »

I think a On Demand, TV version of the RTE Player would be a much better use of resources.

There is no return channel, and there are not enough spare channels. A red button service might be useful, but the demand for it escapes me. There is simply not enough content. As it is they pad out the schedule with rubbish like 'Murder She Wrote'.

From RTE, we should get RTE1 HD, RTE2 HD, RTE NEWS NOW, and RTE SPORT. With TG4 providing some matching services, like the Film Channel, and OTV. Not all channels would be 24/7, for example. the Sport channel might only be active for actual sporting events, not relaying Australian Junior TiddlyWinks Regional SemiFinals in the wee small hours.

Different parts of the schedule could be assigned channel/programme nos so, for example, childrens programmes would occupy their own space in the EPG, etc.

Gerry Wicklow

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Not if they insist on jamming Preseli:mad:. One mux is more than enough for them.

Yup,the north korea RTENL are still broadcasting at high power on all 4 muxes from mt leinster.

It's more obvious than ever that this is deliberate jamming given theres going to be no need for the extra 3 muxes.

What is that farce costing and is there any regulation at all of this money wasting pettyness??:mad::mad:

Testing my aunt fanny.

copacetic

scath wrote: »

I have suggested to RTÉ to consider linking up with mobile operators for Radio DTT on mobiles. From talking to someone in 02 they would be cool with that too as it is done in Germany. However coming to an agreement as to charges for usage is another issue. But it is spectrum efficient. In that case then why DAB? Topology is the only issue also. Also DVB-H is foreseen. This is why serious consideration should be given to ComReg not bothering with DVB-H which the model is being questioned anyhow and linking up with Saorview.

Presumably mobile operators could link up with Sky on a commercial DTT service and make that work. Currently its 3G Mobile TV but they did trials for DVB-H. 3G lets them get mobile TV off the ground but DTT access would allow them free up 3G for more interactive stuff and wouldn't have contention issues. I gather mobiles are able to cope now with DTT following improvements, probably even more so with DVB-T2 meaning DVB-H isn't probably needed.

Are you suggesting that supporting portable DVB-T reception is spectrum efficient? Wouldn't his would require a move away from 64 QAM to 16QAM? That and would be not at all spectrum efficient. It would throw away nearly all the gains of mpeg4.

endakenny

Macy0161 wrote: »

I actually don't think TV3 will be on at launch...

I believe that TV3 is obliged by its licence to have full terrestrial coverage but that it has got slack by saying that it is negotiating. Is the broadcasting commission going to take TV3 to task? I am also aware that TV3 would have to pay RTÉNL to be broadcast on the relays because RTÉNL has to pay to operate it. Who exactly owns the transmitters?

watty

RTENL owns the Transmitters and most of the sites.


Mobile handsets work just as well as setboxes. Outside the signal is better. No need to change the QAM. DVB-h isn't needed anymore.

scath

copacetic wrote: »

Are you suggesting that supporting portable DVB-T reception is spectrum efficient? Wouldn't his would require a move away from 64 QAM to 16QAM? That and would be not at all spectrum efficient. It would throw away nearly all the gains of mpeg4.

Eh, copacetic, i don't think ya read properly through all of my thread lol. That makes the QAM issue is irrelevant because use of DVB-T for radio means DAB is not then needed for radio. So spectrum is saved. Now it means then DVB-T portable radios have to be produced. But for mobiles it exists. Then ya don't need DAB spectrum at all. And as we know, there is no need for all this spare radio capacity with DAB, as the industry has issues with more saturation of the crowded market that DAB would bring so they are shying away from it at the moment. The gains of MPEG4 would not be thrown away with MPEG4. Furthermore with DVB-T2 it would be even more spectrum efficient for the dual use of TV and radio and still no DAB needed.

scath

watty wrote: »

RTENL owns the Transmitters and most of the sites.


Mobile handsets work just as well as setboxes. Outside the signal is better. No need to change the QAM. DVB-h isn't needed anymore.

Yip Watty, and not alone DVB-H isn't needed anymore, DAB isn't either, and that frees up quite abit of spectrum isn't it? As you pointed out why RTÉ wouldn't like it, they would I suppose prefer to have DAB, DVB-H because it means they can charge mobile operators for access of programmes as they have to pay programme rights. They could also charge them for access to the DAB network. So i guess they've RTÉ NL in mind, a business! I guess RTÉ pay extra rights to foreign programs on mobiles also. I mean the lad in 02 did say to me broadcasters charge to be on the mobile network's TV service and not the other way around.

watty

Radio

If they used AAC (supported by Saorview) instead of MP2 (traditional DTT/Sat Radio), then 128k is about the same quality as 256k MP2 (or 192k MP3). UK Dab is using 128k often, which is terrible, worse than FM. 128K AAC is at least as good as FM and sometimes better.

endakenny

watty wrote: »

RTENL owns the Transmitters and most of the sites.

If RTÉNL owns the transmitters, then it could let TV3 onto the PSB mux for free. It goes against competition to force TV3 to pay to be on this mux. Surely the European Commission would have something to say about the state broadcaster denying TV3 free full terrestrial coverage.

Sam Russell

endakenny wrote: »

If RTÉNL owns the transmitters, then it could let TV3 onto the PSB mux for free. It goes against competition to force TV3 to pay to be on this mux. Surely the European Commission would have something to say about the state broadcaster denying TV3 free full terrestrial coverage.

No, RTE NL are governed by a regulator. They could no more let TV3 on for free, than Dublin Airport Authority could let Ryanair have free access. The Competition Authority would be down on both of them if they did. And the EU have a thing about state subsidies. They do not allow them.

watty

Sky, RTE, TG4, UPC and others would all complain bitterly if TV3 got free carriage. They are a commercial company funded by adverts. It would be massive distortion of competition if TV3 got free carriage.

RTE don't have free carriage, even if they were not charge and RTENL was completely integrated to RTE. RTENL has to pay ESB (huge), staff, Microwave & Fibre feed costs and capital equipment etc.

watty

watty wrote: »

RTENL has to pay ESB (huge),

It must be huge up at mt leinster anyhow...3 extra unnecessary muxes on high power still on air for nada nothing ... for nearly a year now with the jamming exercise.

Easy know they're not a private sector company and don't have to account for their spending...
The love wasting other peoples..
such effeciency :rolleyes:

galtee boy

watty wrote: »

Sky, RTE, TG4, UPC and others would all complain bitterly if TV3 got free carriage. They are a commercial company funded by adverts. It would be massive distortion of competition if TV3 got free carriage.

RTE don't have free carriage, even if they were not charge and RTENL was completely integrated to RTE. RTENL has to pay ESB (huge), staff, Microwave & Fibre feed costs and capital equipment etc.

Is it safe to assume now, that we will not see TV3 back on Saorview until the October launch ? and that they will just leave the current channel line-up of RTE 1 & 2, TG4 and RTE News Now, plus FM & DAB radio stations on through out the summer, as has been the case for some month's now ? Everyday I turn on DTT hoping to see TV3 back ( just to complete the line-up ) or some channel changes like some video on the HD channel, but nothing has changed for quite a while now, except some experimenting with a Saorview dedicated epg.

scath

galtee boy wrote: »

Is it safe to assume now, that we will not see TV3 back on Saorview until the October launch ? and that they will just leave the current channel line-up of RTE 1 & 2, TG4 and RTE News Now, plus FM & DAB radio stations on through out the summer, as has been the case for some month's now ? Everyday I turn on DTT hoping to see TV3 back ( just to complete the line-up ) or some channel changes like some video on the HD channel, but nothing has changed for quite a while now, except some experimenting with a Saorview dedicated epg.

I would say there will be some experimenting further with the channel line up. I suspect we may see Oireachtas TV, perhaps a reconfiguration of RTÉ2 on DTT different from analogue RTÉ2 and a childrens channel. TV3 and 3e probably will wait til mid October for cost reasons. So I would say just have to continue as you are. I'd say we'll have the current lineup until mid August. That's just my own intuition and nowt more

Mr McBoatface

Deleted User wrote: »

It must be huge up at mt leinster anyhow...3 extra unnecessary muxes on high power still on air for nada nothing ... for nearly a year now with the jamming exercise.

Easy know they're not a private sector company and don't have to account for their spending...
The love wasting other peoples..
such effeciency :rolleyes:

It might be a bit early to say for sure, but I think they've turned off the extra muxes at Mount Leinster. I lost all channels on all the muxes earlier today and when the channels came back I could only tune them in on a single mux instead of the normal 4 .

yes -can confirm on ch 45 only now which means most of co wexford and south wicklow will not be able to receive RTE digital as the bulk of households do have presely aerials.
They should be on ch39

10000maniacs

watty wrote: »

Sky, RTE, TG4, UPC and others would all complain bitterly if TV3 got free carriage. They are a commercial company funded by adverts. It would be massive distortion of competition if TV3 got free carriage.

RTE don't have free carriage, even if they were not charge and RTENL was completely integrated to RTE. RTENL has to pay ESB (huge), staff, Microwave & Fibre feed costs and capital equipment etc.

It could be argued that there is already a massive distortion of competition, where RTE not only get a sizable chunk of the license fee, but compete with a distinct advantage over its competitors for advertising revenue.
TG4 also has a skewed advantage over TV3.
Let Sky and UPC complain.
Sky are not even under regulation here. They only answer to UK jurisdiction.
They can't have it both ways.

Sam Russell

10000maniacs wrote: »

It could be argued that there is already a massive distortion of competition, where RTE not only get a sizable chunk of the license fee, but compete with a distinct advantage over its competitors for advertising revenue.
TG4 also has a skewed advantage over TV3.
Let Sky and UPC complain.
Sky are not even under regulation here. They only answer to UK jurisdiction.
They can't have it both ways.

I do not understand your point. TV3 are a commercial operation that refuses to pay for full carriage on analogue and consequently are not carried on a large number (nearly all) repeaters. They are in dispute over costs, and as a consequence are not getting a free ride on DTT. It is not certain that they will pay for carriage on DTT at launch, and it is probably certain that if they do not agree terms, they will not be carried. The licence fee has nothing to do with it. Bus Eareann pays their road tax as does Dublin Bus. The government owns both and yet still collects the road tax.

TV3 still broadcast their studio productions on 4:3 format. They produce very few home produced programmes anyway except cheap face-to-camera stuff. A shopping channel has more elaborate production values. Almost all their output is sourced from ITV1 or the BBC, plus their bought in Americana.

TV3 is a low rent outfit, that refuses to pay the rent.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

TV3 is a low rent outfit, that refuses to pay the rent.

Could someone point me exactly to public domain information as to what TV3 has or hasn't been paid for transmission by them and also to an independent assessment of transmission costs for them.
Bearing in mind that their chief competitor controls their outlet.

I keep reading people refering here to the dispute but want to see if it's hearsay or are there actually any particulars.

Charles Slane

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep reading people refering here to the dispute but want to see if it's hearsay or are there actually any particulars.

Have to say, I'd be very interested to hear particulars too. We could argue forever about the merits of the quailty of their programming, but some facts on their apparent refusal to pay carriage fees would be enlightening.

endakenny

Sam Russell wrote: »

TV3 are a commercial operation that refuses to pay for full carriage on analogue and consequently are not carried on a large number (nearly all) repeaters. They are in dispute over costs, and as a consequence are not getting a free ride on DTT. It is not certain that they will pay for carriage on DTT at launch, and it is probably certain that if they do not agree terms, they will not be carried.

As far as I know, TV3 is obliged by the terms of its licence to have full coverage and has been given slack because it is "negotiating". Why isn't the broadcasting regulator putting more pressure on TV3? Surely it would be in TV3's interest to pay for full coverage because it would get more viewers. Hence, more ad revenue.