Saorview Content Speculation

warlikedave

aye shame that relay only has a small range - only covers the town if i am correct...i cant pick it up at all and im only 2-3 miles outside the town...so any new content coming our way soon? :P

Gerry Wicklow

Then again Mt L would probably cover most of the same areas only for the co-channel with Preseli.

warlikedave

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Then again Mt L would probably cover most of the same areas only for the co-channel with Preseli.

the relay only covers a small swath of area in which mt leinster and preslie clash..all teh way from arklow along the coast well beyond court town if im not mistaken...i dont see them putting up relays all the way down the south east coast nor would it make any monatary sense - thats why a channel change on the mux would be far easier for everyone - no relays and no clashing with preslie and no two ariels or moving ariels to get mt leinster....hmmm shame 3e doesnt show much sifi any more -

BEASTERLY

Sorry if this is old news but RTE 2 was in HD tonight for crinimal minds an the savage eye.

BEASTERLY

BEASTERLY wrote: »

Sorry if this is old news but RTE 2 was in HD tonight for crinimal minds an the savage eye.

Was it actual HD or upscaled?

BEASTERLY

Karsini wrote: »

Was it actual HD or upscaled?

It was upscaled for the savage eye but criminal minds definately was actual HD. I noticed that when i switched from BBC HD to DTT RTE 2 that RTE had a better picture, checked the info and sure enough it was broadcasting in 1080i.:)

I know they had a HD test channel but when did they start showing RTE 2 in HD.

watty

ALL RTE2 on DTT is Broadcast now in 1080i ALL the time. Since 2nd December 2010 http://www.saortv.info/2010/12/02/rte-2-up-scaled-to-hd/

But AFAIK all SD upscalled content unless they add a HD dog.

If the SD content was downscalled with very good gear from HD, then the upscalling works well.
Examples http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69125321&postcount=2

The Cush

BEASTERLY wrote: »

I know they had a HD test channel but when did they start showing RTE 2 in HD.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69339238&postcount=729
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056107911

BEASTERLY wrote: »

It was upscaled for the savage eye but criminal minds definately was actual HD.

As watty said an "RTÉ 2 HD" DOG/Bug/logo will be added during an actual native HD broadcast according to RTÉ so that we know we are actually watching a true HD transmission instead of upscaled/upconverted material.

It is planned that the service will carry a new logo/bug ‘RTÉ 2 HD’ and also a short animation will be played, probably a lower third super, on handover to the live event.
...
In all cases the transmission schedule/running order will contain specific data to indicate the true HD events.

watty

Seems that RTE1+1 when it starts (May?) will be temporary. It will be called RTÉ+ and have very late night RTE2 content and its own schedule

http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/21/saorview-launch-on-track-for-may-2011/

glimmerman123

I wonder will RTE News Now change to a live news channel at full launch and will the 2 mux be switched on as well in May.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Seems that RTE1+1 when it starts (May?) will be temporary. It will be called RTÉ+ and have very late night RTE2 content and its own schedule

http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/21/saorview-launch-on-track-for-may-2011/

Sky have mad men now

This was outlined in the proposal that there are 2 phases to both RTÉ Plus and RTÉ JR

Phase 1
RTÉ + = RTÉ ONE +1 from 7pm
RTÉjr = RTÉ TWO simulcast from 7am to 1pm follow by a repeat of that schedule until 7pm, it will not run at weekends

Phase 2
RTÉ + = An entirely separate channel with a different schedule
RTÉjr = Moves away from RTÉ Two and runs during the weekend while RTÉ Two starts to broadcast lifestyle shows during the morning followed by TRTÉ in the afternoon.

There is no change here.

watty

RTE News Now: Doubt it. Maybe add an extra live insert not on main RTE at best.

They are very quiet about 2nd Mux. I'd guess they will not use 2nd mux until either one of following happens:

• RTE Junior/RTE+ launch
• Any 2nd channel switches to HD
• Oireachtas Report launch (not up to RTE)
• Film Channel (not up to RTE)

Any of those needs the 2nd Mux running. Meanwhile there is no need for it.

Elmo

RTÉ News Now could be schedule like so: -

07:00 - 09:00 Morning Ireland with TV Headlines (this is in the document)
09:00 - 13:00 News, Sport, Business and Entertainment reports with no studio like that of EuroNews (content taken from previous days Six One, Nine News)
13:00 - 13:30 1 News
13:30 - 14:00 Updated version of 09:00 - 13:00
14:00 - 15:00 Current Affairs Repeats
15:00 - 17:40 As 13:30 - 14:00
17:40 - 19:00 As RTÉ One
19:00 - 20:00 Updated version of 09:00 - 13:00
20:00 - 21:00 Current Affairs Repeats
21:00 - 21:30 Nine News
21:30 - 22:00 RTÉ News on Two (Repeated late night on RTÉ Two)
22:00 - 23:00 Time shift of RTÉ One's CA programming
23:00 - 00:00 Oirechtas Report, The View etc
00:00 - 07:00 EuroNews

Schedule interrupted for live press conferences and Dail Proceedings etc.

glimmerman123

Elmo wrote: »

Sky have mad men now

This was outlined in the proposal that there are 2 phases to both RTÉ Plus and RTÉ JR

Phase 1
RTÉ + = RTÉ ONE +1 from 7pm
RTÉjr = RTÉ TWO simulcast from 7am to 1pm follow by a repeat of that schedule until 7pm, it will not run at weekends

Phase 2
RTÉ + = An entirely separate channel with a different schedule
RTÉjr = Moves away from RTÉ Two and runs during the weekend while RTÉ Two starts to broadcast lifestyle shows during the morning followed by TRTÉ in the afternoon.

There is no change here.

So nothing to get too excited about at launch. I was hoping RTE might fire up mux 2 and add one or two channels completely different to RTE 1and 2 to entice as many people as possible to take up Saorview at launch or at least turn RTE News Now into a proper news channel.:(

watty

The two Muxes is need for all the well known content to be done:

Four main channels migrating to HD over next few years. Real HD sport on RTE2 from May 2011

All outlined here as per presentation to Oireachtas Communications Committee, I think in July 2010.

Change outlined in this post http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/21/saorview-launch-on-track-for-may-2011/

RTE1+1 --> RTÉ+

All else is as was known for last 6 months. This is not a competitor to UPC, Sky or Freesat. It's simply the replacement for Free To Air Analogue TV.
As such, it's a huge improvement, Compared to Analogue

• 3e added
• Real Widescreen
• Far far better quality coverage already for RTE1 & RTE2
• About 5% more decent TG4 coverage, existing areas far better quality
• About 25% more decent TV3 coverage, existing areas far better quality
• RTE News now is new and handy. Easier than firing up PC and going online
• Even upscalled SD RTE2HD content an improvement on Sky and other SD channels
• True "live quality" PVR (recordings) via EPG without Sky/UPC sub

Coming Soon, not on Analogue

• Series link via MHEG5 PVR EPG application
• RTÉ2HD to get actual HD content
• RTÉ Junior
• RTÉ+
• Various MHEG5 interactive, not just Aertel
• Integrated RTÉ player "catch up TV" on boxes or TVs with Internet

Coming Later, not on Analogue

• Film Channel
• Oireachtas Reports
• Eventually TV3, RTE1 and TG4 in HD

All FTA 98% terrestrial plus entire Island of Ireland copy on Saorsat FTA.

Elmo

watty wrote: »

Coming Soon, not on Analogue

• RTÉ2HD to get actual HD content
• RTÉ Junior
• RTÉ+

Not soon enough. I think you were questioning the date in May. If the Minister agrees the channels could launch tomorrow, what are RTÉ waiting for?

warlikedave

watty wrote: »

The two Muxes is need for all the well known content to be done:

Four main channels migrating to HD over next few years. Real HD sport on RTE2 from May 2011

All outlined here as per presentation to Oireachtas Communications Committee, I think in July 2010.

Change outlined in this post http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/21/saorview-launch-on-track-for-may-2011/

RTE1+1 --> RTÉ+

All else is as was known for last 6 months. This is not a competitor to UPC, Sky or Freesat. It's simply the replacement for Free To Air Analogue TV.
As such, it's a huge improvement, Compared to Analogue

• 3e added
• Real Widescreen
• Far far better quality coverage already for RTE1 & RTE2
• About 5% more decent TG4 coverage, existing areas far better quality
• About 25% more decent TV3 coverage, existing areas far better quality
• RTE News now is new and handy. Easier than firing up PC and going online
• Even upscalled SD RTE2HD content an improvement on Sky and other SD channels
• True "live quality" PVR (recordings) via EPG without Sky/UPC sub

Coming Soon, not on Analogue

• Series link via MHEG5 PVR EPG application
• RTÉ2HD to get actual HD content
• RTÉ Junior
• RTÉ+
• Various MHEG5 interactive, not just Aertel
• Integrated RTÉ player "catch up TV" on boxes or TVs with Internet

Coming Later, not on Analogue

• Film Channel
• Oireachtas Reports
• Eventually TV3, RTE1 and TG4 in HD

All FTA 98% terrestrial plus entire Island of Ireland copy on Saorsat FTA.

Could add a few international news channels to that and maybe set up a music and/or sifi channel on it :P (im dreaming obviously :P) then ye would have a decent coverage and spread of services there

have setanta decided what they are doing with setanta ireland by the way?

Elmo

warlikedave wrote: »

Could add a few international news channels to that and maybe set up a music and/or sifi channel on it :P (im dreaming obviously :P) then ye would have a decent coverage and spread of services there

have setanta decided what they are doing with setanta ireland by the way?

Even I amn't that mad to think an Irish Sci/Fi channel would have a market.

Setanta look like they are remaining a pay service, An Post are giving it free for 3 months at the moment.

If the Commercial muxes hadn't been about Pay TV new and existing broadcasters might have taken up licences. A music channel from TV3 or TG4 or someone new. But the BAI approach was blind to power of UPC and Sky and their Duopoly in that market. Of course on boards I am going to get the back lash of "even if we had laws like Canada it wouldn't be compatiable with the EU TVWF" as though I was suggesting that MTV should be taken off UPC and Sky and replaced with Music Ireland (which I don't believe and didn't say) :rolleyes: anyway MTV is a pay channel just like Setanta.

The IFB is currently working on the Film Channel (I hear they have to pick up rights for Irish movies :rolleyes:) but it would mean they could get much of the Sound and Vision Fund if it ever happened. Oirechtas TV would prob have some other parliaments that it would look at if we were lucky.

If it had all worked out: -

Public Muxes

RTÉ One HD
RTÉ Two HD
TG4 HD
TV3 HD
RTÉ News Now
3e
RTÉ Plus
RTÉjr
IFB Channel
OTV
perhaps EURONEWS.

And

Commerical Muxes

well 2 to be given to local content providers with licence issued by the BAI e.g. TV3 Music, a commercial channel for TG4, New Licence 1, 2, 3 etc perhaps setanta might want some FTA channels, UTV, BBC 1NI and 2NI.

2 for premium pay TV Sky, ESPN, Setanta etc.

Sure what more would you want from DTT?

warlikedave

Elmo wrote: »

Even I amn't that mad to think an Irish Sci/Fi channel would have a market.

Setanta look like they are remaining a pay service, An Post are giving it free for 3 months at the moment.

If the Commercial muxes hadn't been about Pay TV new and existing broadcasters might have taken up licences. A music channel from TV3 or TG4 or someone new. But the BAI approach was blind to power of UPC and Sky and their Duopoly in that market. Of course on boards I am going to get the back lash of "even if we had laws like Canada it wouldn't be compatiable with the EU TVWF" as though I was suggesting that MTV should be taken off UPC and Sky and replaced with Music Ireland (which I don't believe and didn't say) :rolleyes: anyway MTV is a pay channel just like Setanta.

The IFB is currently working on the Film Channel (I hear they have to pick up rights for Irish movies :rolleyes:) but it would mean they could get much of the Sound and Vision Fund if it ever happened. Oirechtas TV would prob have some other parliaments that it would look at if we were lucky.

If it had all worked out: -

Public Muxes

RTÉ One HD
RTÉ Two HD
TG4 HD
TV3 HD
RTÉ News Now
3e
RTÉ Plus
RTÉjr
IFB Channel
OTV
perhaps EURONEWS.

And

Commerical Muxes

well 2 to be given to local content providers with licence issued by the BAI e.g. TV3 Music, a commercial channel for TG4, New Licence 1, 2, 3 etc perhaps setanta might want some FTA channels, UTV, BBC 1NI and 2NI.

2 for premium pay TV Sky, ESPN, Setanta etc.

Sure what more would you want from DTT?

Sifi was on a wandering thought LOL - still MTV is an awful music channel (more like a crappy soap channel) maybe an irish based music channel done right could work...so for BBC and UTV - I can see BBC being late in its arrival and UTV never making it since they have alot of shared content with tv3 and tv3 wouldnt be too happy about that :P

I cant see sky or espn making a jump onto our DTT service really....they already have a massive presence via sky platform already...its interesting times ahead if they get it done right though

Not sure what setanta will do however :P

Elmo

warlikedave wrote: »

Sifi was on a wandering thought LOL - still MTV is an awful music channel (more like a crappy soap channel) maybe an irish based music channel done right could work...so for BBC and UTV - I can see BBC being late in its arrival and UTV never making it since they have alot of shared content with tv3 and tv3 wouldnt be too happy about that :P

I cant see sky or espn making a jump onto our DTT service really....they already have a massive presence via sky platform already...its interesting times ahead if they get it done right though

Not sure what setanta will do however :P

Why not combine BBC NI and UTV into NITV after all the MOU only states it out on a cultural basis, NITV would just show NI programme plus any of the English shows that RTÉ or TV3 don't buy. UTV could run it or even own it. Or UTV could try for a BAI licence for UTV2 after all they have a major footprint into ROI local radio.

If sky or ESPN could ad customers I don't see why they would want to for their channels. They would purely be a premium service, I just don't think basic pay will work.

watty

warlikedave wrote: »

Could add a few international news channels to that and maybe set up a music and/or sifi channel on it :P (im dreaming obviously :P) then ye would have a decent coverage and spread of services there

have setanta decided what they are doing with setanta ireland by the way?

Who would pay?

This is Free To Air replacement of Analogue. A Pay TV platform is a different animal.

RTE have said this is for people that don't want pay TV, and recommended you get Freesat for Free UK TV.

warlikedave

watty wrote: »

Who would pay?

This is Free To Air replacement of Analogue. A Pay TV platform is a different animal.

RTE have said this is for people that don't want pay TV, and recommended you get Freesat for Free UK TV.

ive access to a uk ip so im ok for uk tv now - sat signal is only available from 19.2e for me...i was only thinking of additional free content that would be nice :P

watty

You can't get decent TV quality over Internet in real time. BBC HD, BBC 1 HD and ITV HD on sat are stunning as are some of the German (I have 28, 19, 13 on one dish).

warlikedave

watty wrote: »

You can't get decent TV quality over Internet in real time. BBC HD, BBC 1 HD and ITV HD on sat are stunning as are some of the German (I have 28, 19, 13 on one dish).

Aye well i cant afford the setup necessary to recieve freesat unfortunatly since we have a load of trees too close - it would require at least 50-100 foot of cable and a 12 foot pole to put the dish on top but the internet stream of the bbc and itv from thier respective sites are of a very good quality (nowhere near HD but certainly not a bad SD comparison usually)

Aye ZDF and Arte are the two HD channels ive got on 19.2e - quality is amazing indeed..they have Vox HD encrypted though which is a shame...any other free to air HD channels of note on 19.2e watty?

Shall be interesting to see how rte hd (DVB-T) will compare when it starts broadcasting native HD to the DVB-S2 channels

Question though - is there much quality diffeence between DVB-T and DVB-T2 (same standard as DVB-S2 isnt it except T2 is terresterial?) in regards to HD may i ask?

lawhec

warlikedave wrote: »

Question though - is there much quality diffeence between DVB-T and DVB-T2 (same standard as DVB-S2 isnt it except T2 is terresterial?) in regards to HD may i ask?

In theory at least (I can't vouch for a real-world comparison yet as DVB-T2 isn't broadcast in NI yet, and RTÉ2 is only upscaled HD for now) there should be no difference if it is transmitted at the same bit rate. The difference lies in DVB-T2 being able to seek out a slightly better bit rate for the same transmission parameters compared to DVB-T, along with a lower signal to noise ration being required (the UK is running DVB-T2 using 256QAM as opposed to 64QAM for DVB-T in areas where analogue has been switched off) amongst better SFN support etc. There's a useful web page using a javascript calculator that allows you to work out bit rates for a DVB-T(2) channel with certain parameters set. There's also a link near the top of the page to a DVB-S(2) calculator as well...

http://www.saschateichmann.de/dvb-t-hf.html

watty

The bitrate of a channel is nothing to do with DVB-T or DVB-T2. The difference is spectral efficiency.

For the same link conditions and bandwidth (8MHz) the DVB-T2 allows more information (combination of Symbol Rate, Bit Rate etc). It also has higher number FFTs defined for COFDM, DVB-T is 2K (About 1,700 carriers) or 8K (About 6,700 carriers in 8MHz). DVB T-2 adds 32K FFT, which needs a DSP chip for Tuner about 5 times more powerful, hence no firmware upgrade can make a DVB-T tuner be a DVB-T2

Also DVB-T is 16-QAM, or 64-QAM. DVB-T adds 256-QAM.
But 64QAM needs about x4 better signal than 16QAM (if all is perfect) for same S/N if FEC is the same.
And 256 QAM needs about x16 better signal.

So the 8 bits per symbol vs 6 bits per symbol isn't a fair comparison of Increased capacity as the signal needs to be about x4 stronger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB-T2

So most of the supposed extra capacity of DVB-T is simply running transmitters at much higher power and thus 256QAM (Freeview uses 16QAM for "robust" Muxes with best coverage and 64QAM for less good coverage Mux)

The maximum bit rate is limited as always by S/N and bandwidth used, thus Power, QAM level, distance, interference.

The higher number of carriers for 32K FFT in DVB-T doesn't help with random noise, only helps improve against interference as less carriers are lost so lower FEC will work. The less FEC, the more space for data.

So, the quality is set by the bitrate chosen for channel. DVB-T2 simply lets you have more bits in same spectrum (if you use higher power, there is no free lunch). DVB-T is close to Shannon Limit and DVB-T2 is slightly closer. But most of the extra efficency is the trading of Power for higher QAM. This is why DVB-T2 is only used where Analogue has been turned off.

So in general the choice of DVB-T or DVB-T2 has no effect on quality, if you can get the signal. Always channels use the minimum bit rate the broadcaster can use to give the "acceptable" quality.

If there is DVB-T2 Irish Channels in N.I. ever, then it's likely to use existing encodings and be identical quality to other transmissions.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

If there is DVB-T2 Irish Channels in N.I. ever, then it's likely to use existing encodings and be identical quality to other transmissions.

Not according to the published information. The RTE/TG4 mux is referred to as a 'mini mux'. Lower power with more robust coding.

Elmo

Setanta Freeview

I post this in hear purely because I have stated this before that Setanta provide some FTA programming during their schdule the next hour (12:30 - 13:30) is a "FREEVIEW" hour anyone on satellite want to let us know does this hour actually go out FTA or even Freeview on Sky?

Thanks,

Sorry for going off topic.

The show is called Pilgrims.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not according to the published information. The RTE/TG4 mux is referred to as a 'mini mux'. Lower power with more robust coding.

I don't mean the Modulation. I don't mean the DVB-T2, I'm referring to the content of the MPEG2-TS, the actual MPEG4 content.

The picture bit rate and quality is entirely separate and nothing to do with DVB-T, DVB-T2, QAM, FFTs, Guard bands or FEC, those only affect the total bandwidth of data possible in the MPEG2-TS

windsurfer99ie

watty wrote: »

Who would pay?

This is Free To Air replacement of Analogue. A Pay TV platform is a different animal.

RTE have said this is for people that don't want pay TV, and recommended you get Freesat for Free UK TV.

Fine, but I suggest we should lobby politicians if we want to see improvements to SAORVIEW. I contacted my local TD recently - no earth shattering revelations, but this is what came back:

******,
for your information, please see the reply below I received from Deputy Leo Varadkar in relation to your query regarding digital TV services.

I hope that this information is of use to you.

Thanks again for getting in touch.

with kind regards
James

---

Forwarded by James Reilly/Oireachtas on 18/01/2011 16:09

---

James,

Generally, this has been approached from the other angle. Currently, Irish residents are able to benefit from a "spill over" effect from British digital TV. The British Free to Air broadcasters (ITV, BBC, Ch4) operate a service called Freeview which broadcasts Digital TV to the UK. The satellites on which the Freeview is broadcast, broadcast to the entireity of the British Isles and Irish consumers can receive these channels by accident rather than design if they have the correct digital receiver. The British channels are able to do this because when they are buying programmes for the British market, those who are selling the rights are not too concerned about spilling into the compartively smaller Irish market.

RTÉ cannot broadcast on the Freeview due to rights issues. RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 get to buy programmes from foreign markets at a much reduced rate than the British broadcasters. As such, if there was to be a spill over from Irish broadcasters into the UK, they would have to pay for rights for that which would increase costs greatly. Therefore, they have set up their own Saorview service which will only broadcast to Ireland (the satellites are much more targetted than those that Freeview is broadcast on).

I will invesitage with RTÉ what the reasons for not having the British broadcasters on the RTÉ service, but I believe the issue there would be of rights itself - in that the British broadcasters end up buying the rights for Ireland as well as Britain when they would be buying television, and as such limit what is available to Irish TV. It would also dilute the advertising revenue available to Irish broadcasters, as the UK broadcasters would be able to sell advertising on their channels for the Irish market - they currently do this on NTL and Sky.

There are I understand companies who are developing a dual reception box, which will allow consumers to receive both the Freeview and Saorview services on the same set-up. However, people can - without huge difficulties - set up two boxes on the same TV and get the entire offerings of Irish and British Free to Air Television for no cost (beyond the purchase of equipment on day one).