2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

Scratch the fartlek anyway for certain as you have a session done already so swap it for a hard day. See how the legs are feeling today between 6-8 should be grand the idea is dont do too much and remember you have your recovery tomorrow and 8 miles MP to keep in mind at the weekend during your LSR. At the end of teh day today is to aid in recovery from your hard days so if it is a struggle today just leave it at six

Hey coach! Ran 8 mile easy - legs heavy today but will get out later for 4 mile rec and possibly a swim too. Looking forward to tomorrows session - full report tomorrow;)

donothoponpop

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I'm meeting up with a running buddy in the park at the popes cross tomorrow morning. I plan to run 8 miles easy with him @ 8:15/mile pace and then run the 8mile MP on my own @7:15/mile pace (I'm not up to the sub 3 pace yet!)
We normally head out at 7:30-8am, probably a bit early for ye? What time would you be in the Park? How are you fixed Kaymin?

Yeah, that would entail leaving the house here at about 5:30am, so I'll pass;).

No problem, I probably need to get some concrete road running into the legs, so I'll do my LSR around Dun Laoirghe.

kaymin

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I'm meeting up with a running buddy in the park at the popes cross tomorrow morning. I plan to run 8 miles easy with him @ 8:15/mile pace and then run the 8mile MP on my own @7:15/mile pace (I'm not up to the sub 3 pace yet!)
We normally head out at 7:30-8am, probably a bit early for ye? What time would you be in the Park? How are you fixed Kaymin?

Bit early for me also especially after one or two beers this evening. I'll be aiming to hit my target marathon pace for the second 8 miles. Maybe we'll meet up at the Frank Duffy 10 mile or for a LSR in a few weeks (am in Galway next weekend.

ELFOYZER

Sound so, I'm away next w'end too.
We should look at organising a group run on Sunday, 15th August in the Park if that suits. Would be good to hook up before the Frank Duffy and see where everyone is. I could be flexible on the time and start a little later ( for all you nocturnal sorts:D)

ELFOYZER

donothoponpop wrote: »

Yeah, that would entail leaving the house here at about 5:30am, so I'll pass;).

No problem, I probably need to get some concrete road running into the legs, so I'll do my LSR around Dun Laoirghe.

Think the focus ireland triathlon is on tomorrow so might be a little busy in that neck of the woods, have a good run;)

smmoore79

only got 2 sessions done this week due to bein on hols. 11 miles this week so far, plan 12 miles tomorrow so that will be 3 sessions and 24 miles total for the week. Overall, 167 miles done (by tomorrow!)

ecoli

Right lads today was the first day of marathon paced running it will be interesting to see how people got on with it?

Here is next weeks schedule

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 2 mile warm up 6-8 x 1k @ 5k +5-7 secs pace (1 min - 90 sec recovery) 2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 11 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday| 2 mile warm up 2x2m @ HMP (2-3 min recovery)
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 17 miles easy

Bloody Nipples

Just in from a 15.5 mile run, did the first 7 easy then tried to keep it at PMP for the last 8.5 which I did in 59:30, works out at a 7 min mile pace. Hopefully I'll be able to do that and faster for 26 miles in Oct :eek: it was tough to keep that pace up for 8 miles though.

Bloody Nipples

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|5|50|148.5|


And the table.

ecoli

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Just in from a 15.5 mile run, did the first 7 easy then tried to keep it at PMP for the last 8.5 which I did in 59:30, works out at a 7 min mile pace. Hopefully I'll be able to do that and faster for 26 miles in Oct :eek: it was tough to keep that pace up for 8 miles though.

Fair play on the running. When you think about it that is roughly 3.04 marathon pace at the moment with 3 months nearly to the day left to go to the marathon. Also you have to remember that this is at the end of a full hard week training so you as long as you stay consistent you are well on track. Well done keep it up

ELFOYZER

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|56|249
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|5|50|148.5|


Lot of running this week!

Legs heavy this morning but ran a on a nice 4 mile loop in Phoenix Park. First two loops - 8:35; 8:07; 8:13; 8:09; 8:12; 8:05; 8:04; 8:14.
MP two loops - 7:11; 7;07; 7:17; 7:04; 6:53; 7:16; 7:35*; 7:12 - then half mile jog cooldown. (*call of nature inc.)
Avg 7:12/mile at MP. Very happy to have done this with heavy legs.
Well earned rest and few scoops now!

ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

Right lads today was the first day of marathon paced running it will be interesting to see how people got on with it?

Here is next weeks schedule

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 2 mile warm up 6-8 x 1k @ 5k +5-7 secs pace (1 min - 90 sec recovery) 2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 11 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday| 2 mile warm up 2x2m @ HMP (2-3 min recovery)
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 17 miles easy

What? No Hills???

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

What? No Hills???

Not this week this week is something with a little more zip but dont worry they will be back next week in case you thought you were getting away from them. Would recommend trying to incorporate them into your LSR though

kaymin

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|49|282
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|56|249
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|5|50|148.5|


Summary for the week:

Monday Rest

Tuesday 3 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1 mile cool down
Efforts went up 63 feet and average paces were: 5:59, 5:51, 5:44, 5:26 - bit inconsistent!

Wednesday 11 miles easy - average 7:06 per mile

Thursday 8 miles easy - average 7:28 per mile (felt tired)

Friday 8 miles fartlek (10 min easy, ten min steady)
Average pace for each 10 minute segment was: 7:27, 6:48, 7:09, 6:33, 7:06, 6:07. Splits inconsistent again but hills / wind had an impact.

Saturday Rest / short walk

Sunday 8 miles easy 8 miles MP - 8 miles easy averaged 7:08; 8 miles MP averaged 6:26 - average for the total run was 6:47 per mile. Am still figuring out what MP I should be aiming for - 10 mile and half marathon races should help me decide. I wanted to make this a hard session so went hard but steady for the second half of this run - breathing was fine throughout but my legs are fairly spent now. Took in 5 isogels during the run - definitely was a help. Had no water though.

Bloody Nipples

kaymin wrote: »

Sunday 8 miles easy 8 miles MP - 8 miles easy averaged 7:08; 8 miles MP averaged 6:26 - average for the total run was 6:47 per mile.

Fair play! :eek:

ELFOYZER

kaymin wrote: »

Sunday 8 miles easy 8 miles MP - 8 miles easy averaged 7:08; 8 miles MP averaged 6:26 - average for the total run was 6:47 per mile. Am still figuring out what MP I should be aiming for - 10 mile and half marathon races should help me decide. I wanted to make this a hard session so went hard but steady for the second half of this run - breathing was fine throughout but my legs are fairly spent now. Took in 5 isogels during the run - definitely was a help. Had no water though.

WOW! no question about a sub 3 here, unless someone chops your leg off - and even then I'd reckon you'd have a fair go on one foot! Great running Kaymin, but 5 Gels??? God, that would destroy my stomach. I had one Powermax gel at 8 miles today and planned on max of 4 on the big day.
Still, whatever works for ya. Well done.

kaymin

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Fair play! :eek:

ELFOYZER wrote: »

WOW! no question about a sub 3 here, unless someone chops your leg off - and even then I'd reckon you'd have a fair go on one foot! Great running Kaymin, but 5 Gels??? God, that would destroy my stomach. I had one Powermax gel at 8 miles today and planned on max of 4 on the big day.
Still, whatever works for ya. Well done.

Cheers - the last 10 miles is where the real pain begins though.

High5 recommend that you take an isogel every 20 minutes (they would!) - apparently you can digest 75g of carbohydrate every hour and one isolgel contains 22g of carobohydrate. Isogels have a much higher water content than normal gels and you don't need to take water with them or even soon after (I sound like a High5 salesman). It felt strange finishing the run today and not feeling hungry!

donothoponpop

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|5|51|227
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|5|50|148.5|


Very happy with this weeks training. Knew I'd be playing a bit of catch-up after two weeks holidays, but things are going better than I expected.

Today's 16 miler was a tester, I wasn't sure what pace to run the (current) MP miles at, but figured I'd be content to get 7:15 pace at this early stage of the game. So the first 8 miles were 8:09 average, very humid, and I wasn't sure how many MP miles I'd be able to manage. Did them in Marlay park, so there's a bit of a hill in there, which skews the pace a little. Felt the legs hurting a bit after the first two, so convinced myself to get to 4, then see how I felt. In the end, I managed 7, perhaps overcooked the pace a bit on the last two, but the legs were gone, so jogged the last.

Summary, 8@8:09, then 7:04, 6:59, 7:05, 7:09, 7:33, 6:40, 6:46, 1 x warm down.

smmoore79

smmoore79 wrote: »

only got 2 sessions done this week due to bein on hols. 11 miles this week so far, plan 12 miles tomorrow so that will be 3 sessions and 24 miles total for the week. Overall, 167 miles done (by tomorrow!)

Got through my 12 miles today. averaging 7 13 pace. so thats 167 miles to date. Only downside to my run was that i wore my relatively new trainers (Luna racer). Back of my heals were cut up a bit.. On the plus side, theyre nice and lite compared to my Mizuno's!

ecoli

Well done to everyone i am happy with how the sessions went they are quite promising and you all seem to be strong doing these not dying off in the last ones so i think over the next three months we will see them times come down to the target or there abouts

Keep up the good work

donothoponpop

Hey coach, now might be a good time to give your ideas on stretching- I did a bit now, had a cold bath, but I can feel the leg muscles tensing up! Will do a recovery run tomorrow- very slow!- but what should I (we) do in the interim regarding stretching?

ecoli

donothoponpop wrote: »

Hey coach, now might be a good time to give your ideas on stretching- I did a bit now, had a cold bath, but I can feel the leg muscles tensing up! Will do a recovery run tomorrow- very slow!- but what should I (we) do in the interim regarding stretching?

Right this is one i am guilty of not doing enough of so i feel like a bit of a hypocrite but ill do my best.
1st thing first stretching is not warming up warming up should be done before attempting to stretch (lightly jogging can do this)

Once this is done it should be followed by static stretching. This is basically your traditional stretching you know well and usually involves joint rotation etc. When doing these they should be gradual and not overstretch. Also when doing these you should not be bouncing it and should be holding the stretch. should be held for about 5 - 7 secs longest

Once these are completed should be followed by dynamic stretching. This is effectively working on range of motion.

When strecthing as well most people seem to work from there head down or feet up but what i have found is the fact that the back is so crucial and connects basically everything in the body it should be stretcted so that stretching muscles in the upper and lower body wont have adverse effects

Hope this helps a bit

Speedy44

donothoponpop wrote: »

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|5|51|227
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|6 | 61 | 214|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|5|50|148.5|


Good week this week. Another pmp run under the belt, a bit too much up & down due to running with 2:40 marathoners and not having garmin on. Still, averaged 6:45 for the 6mls (I think!).

2 other good sessions, 10 x 1K on Wed & 3 x 15mins on Friday. Got in 61mls for the week in 6 days. Onwards & upwards ...............

Bloody Nipples

ecoli wrote: »

Right lads today was the first day of marathon paced running it will be interesting to see how people got on with it?

Here is next weeks schedule

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 2 mile warm up 6-8 x 1k @ 5k +5-7 secs pace (1 min - 90 sec recovery) 2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 11 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday| 2 mile warm up 2x2m @ HMP (2-3 min recovery)
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 17 miles easy

Should the recoveries on Tuesday and friday be walked or run?

ecoli

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Should the recoveries on Tuesday and friday be walked or run?

Leave this to the discretion of the athlete the main thing is that the recovery time is kept between the times stated. Some people dont feel recovered jogging while others feel if they start walking the legs start to seize up and prefer to jog so which ever you feel best helps you recover

ELFOYZER

Found today's session tough -
Ran 2 mile w/u easy; then 6x1k intervals (4:03;3:53;3:53;4:02;4:10;4:02) - walk/run/stretch during 90 sec recoveries; 1mile cooldown.
May have been the few beers at the w'end, but good workout.

What's the topic of chat this week?

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Found today's session tough -
Ran 2 mile w/u easy; then 6x1k intervals (4:03;3:53;3:53;4:02;4:10;4:02) - walk/run/stretch during 90 sec recoveries; 1mile cooldown.
May have been the few beers at the w'end, but good workout.

What's the topic of chat this week?

Well stretching was brought up i dunno if people have more to contribute. If you have a topic you want to bring up though by all means do so

Bloody Nipples

For better or worse, I don't stretch at all :cool: I've got so many bad habits.

Bloody Nipples

Editors are generally a timid and bookish lot. You'll find few Purple Hearts in our ranks, and few of us trying out for Fear Factor. In two decades at Runner's World, I've gone to the brink of combat just once.

It happened 10 years ago at the annual meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine. I was attending a slideshow on "Stretching and Running Injuries," and the speaker kept making fun of Runner's World. His data on Honolulu marathoners indicated that runners who stretched got injured more often than those who didn't. After each of his statistical slides, he'd project pages of Runner's World with articles like "9 Best Stretches for Runners." The message was clear: the editors of this magazine must be lost in space.

Hey, wait a minute, that's me. When the lights came on, I rushed to the microphone, huffing, puffing, and expanding my chest to its full 38 inches. I felt my testosterone surging. This dude was in trouble.

"Thanks for the fascinating paper," I said. "I'm just curious. If stretching doesn't work, why do runners keep doing it?"

So much for my Terminator fantasy.

These days, as the running population keeps booming, the question of stretching's value is more important than ever. No wonder a recent report from the Centers for Disease Control received so much attention. It, too, cast doubt on the effectiveness of stretching, concluding, "There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine prerun or postrun stretching to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes."

I always thought the folks at the CDC worked around the clock on SARS, HIV, and the biohazards of sci-fi movies. These people have time for sore Achilles tendons?

Stephen Thacker, M.D., the study's head author, assures me he has spent many years in public health surveillance, epidemiology, and infectious diseases. But, he says, obesity is costing the United States more than $100 billion a year, and the CDC believes that more exercise could reduce this healthcare burden.
"We want to promote physical activity," says Dr. Thacker, "but we have to look at all the things that either encourage or discourage exercise, such as the amount of time it takes to exercise, and the injuries you can get. We look for the science before we make any recommendations."

For Dr. Thacker's paper "The Impact of Stretching on Sports Injury Risk: A Systematic Review of the Literature," he and his colleagues pored over nearly 100 other published medical studies on the subject. Their key conclusions: stretching does increase flexibility; the highest-quality studies indicate that this increased flexibility doesn't prevent injuries; few athletes need extreme flexibility to perform their best (perhaps just gymnasts and figure skaters); and more injuries would be prevented by better warmups, by strength training, and by balance exercises, than by stretching.

Ian Shrier, M.D., a past president of the Canadian Society of Sports Medicine, has been drilling into the stretching literature since the early 1990s. In a 1999 paper titled "Stretching Before Exercise Does Not Reduce the Risk of Local Muscle Injury," Dr. Shrier lists five reasons why stretching shouldn't be expected to work. Among them: stretching won't change eccentric muscle activity (when a muscle simultaneously contracts and lengthens, as in downhill running), which is believed to cause most injuries; stretching can produce damage at the skeletal level; and stretching appears to mask muscle pain, which could cause the exerciser to ignore this key pre-injury signal. He concludes: "The basic science and clinical evidence today suggests that stretching before exercise is more likely to cause injury than to prevent it."

This is certain to come as a shock to many runners. In a recent Runner's World Online Poll, 89 percent of respondents said they try to make stretching "a regular part" of their program. Stretching has worked for them, so why should they stop? "I was sidelined with an IT band injury, but my PT taught me some new stretches," one runner wrote. "Since then, I have not had any problems." Many others stretch simply because it feels good.

It's easy to understand why flexibility has fans. I want to be flexible--not rigid--in my life, especially in my thinking. Likewise, we all know that tall buildings and long bridges are built to be flexible. Their flexibility enhances their strength in the face of hurricanes and earthquakes. No doubt: Flexibility is good.

Until you consider runners' relationship with "motion," which is another word for flexibility. Runners try to avoid too much motion. We wear orthotics to prevent overpronation. We wear knee straps to prevent too much lateral movement. We do crunches to build a rock-hard midsection. Flexibility sounds like a great idea, but has definite drawbacks for runners.

The best research on stretching and injury prevention has been done with military recruits. Military training has much in common with exercise, and the Army has a huge interest in keeping injuries to a minimum. In one study, titled "Physical Training and Exercise-Related Injuries," a U.S. Army research team found that trainees with the highest and lowest flexibility had the highest injury rates. They were, respectively, 2.2- and 2.5-times more likely to incur an injury than trainees with average flexibility. Apparently, when it comes to flexibility and injuries, don't try to be all that you can be. Settle for average.

Surprisingly, the best-known stretching-for-runners team in the United States, the father-son duo of Jim and Phil Wharton, agree with the medical research conclusions. "We don't even use the word 'stretching' anymore," the Whartons say. "It conjures up an image of static stretching--of holding still for too long, like the tension created by a tug of war. That can actually weaken the muscle-tendon connection."

The Whartons promote AI ("active, isolated") flexibility exercises. These exercises move the muscle and joint gently and progressively to the point of slight tension, then immediately release the tension, and then repeat 10 times. There's no static-stretching hold for 10 to 30 seconds. "This promotes healthy blood circulation and lubrication to the joint," say the Whartons, whose fans include Deena Kastor, Alan Webb, and Khalid Khannouchi.

Since older runners would seem to have much to gain from stretching, I call Ed Whitlock, who last fall became the first 70+ runner to go sub-3:00 in the marathon. But Whitlock is afraid of setting a bad example. You see, he doesn't stretch. "I get the greatest return on my time by piling on miles," he says. "I don't want to dump on stretching. We all need to find our own way. But you can do too much and get injured."

The CDC's Dr. Thacker agrees. "If the time you spend stretching," he says, "causes you to lose time from something else--more running, strength training, or stability exercises--then you might be better off spending the time on that something else."

Or take the middle road: stretch in the evening while you're watching TV. I like the Wharton approach, where you keep moving through your stretches--into them and out of them. That seems like a natural way to make you feel better. And it won't cut into your training time.

Worth a read.

Here's the article:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/1,7124,s6-241-287--7001-0,00.html

ecoli

Right lads (and ladies if we have any) lets start sorting out this LSR on Sunday. I am thinking around 11-12 in the park maybe? (again this will be based on majority rule)

Also be nice to get peoples usual LSR pace so we can try and find common ground in terms of pace i was thinking around 8 min pace or so unless people think it too fast/slow (again this will be a majority ruling)

So just drop your name and pace if you are interested in coming (and also time of day if suggested doesnt suit) and hopefully we can facilitate everyone