2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

Bloody Nipples · 20-07-2010 01:49PM

Cheers for the advice. And one last question how often would you recommend doing this core session?

This one's for ecoli. I have the fortune to be working with a very experienced marathon runner (17 time, pb 3:12) and she told me you should always jog the recovery of a hill repeat (though she didn't get a chance to explain the reason) so I was just wondering where the scientific world weighs in on this one?

ecoli · 20-07-2010 02:02PM

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Cheers for the advice. And one last question how often would you recommend doing this core session?

This one's for ecoli. I have the fortune to be working with a very experienced marathon runner (17 time, pb 3:12) and she told me you should always jog the recovery of a hill repeat (though she didn't get a chance to explain the reason) so I was just wondering where the scientific world weighs in on this one?

I would recommend core 2-3 times a week is plenty.

Ideally jogging recovery is best as it keeps it short but some athletes are not used to continual jogging in these sorts of sessions. The main thing is building leg strength in these sessions so i will leave it to the preference of the athlete. Only thing is with walking this is okay as long not taking too long with the walk. Idea is that the recoveries should be short whether walking or jogging. I put walking on the schedule given the nature of training over the last while this session would be a shock to the system and as such i was giving people leeway being first sessions

Bloody Nipples · 20-07-2010 11:47PM

Gonna have to break tomorrow's run up into two 5 milers. I get the feeling this is defeating the purpose?

ecoli · 21-07-2010 12:35AM

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Gonna have to break tomorrow's run up into two 5 milers. I get the feeling this is defeating the purpose?

Ideally would try to get the whole thing in one but if you can doing the mileage as a double is the next best thing. You still have the LSR so wouldnt worry too much moving the schedule now would only take away from other sessions

ecoli · 24-07-2010 12:44PM

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 4 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1-2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 11 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday| 8 miles fartlek (10 min easy, ten min steady)
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 8 miles easy 8 miles MP

Hope everyone is getting on ok? be nice to get a bit of feed back from people to see how they coping with it.

Any questions just shout

donothoponpop · 24-07-2010 01:50PM

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

I'm just back from two weeks holidays, where inevitably the training suffered. Family, travel, and good times, meant I skipped a fair few sessions, however I tried to get in running when I could, and managed a few good sessions. No point lying about it though, my milage suffered, about 30/week (updated above).

Hard 10 miles up a mountain this morning, for penance, felt good, and a LSR planned for tomorrow. I'm giving up booze from now until the end of the program, (so squeezed in three months worth of boozing in the past fortnight!). Ready to knuckle down for the tough part of the schedule.

ecoli · 24-07-2010 02:31PM

ecoli wrote: »

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 4 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1-2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 11 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday| 8 miles fartlek (10 min easy, ten min steady)
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 8 miles easy 8 miles MP

Hope everyone is getting on ok? be nice to get a bit of feed back from people to see how they coping with it.

Any questions just shout

Just to re itterate before people have a cow about it. This is current marathon pace rather than target as 8 miles is alot at MP so if you are not there quite yet it could be very painful

Also discussion topic for the week will be Stretching : static and dynamic. I plan on staying out of these topics to allow for more interaction between the sub three hopefuls. I will interject if advice want but this will be given towards the end of a week to allow for a proper discussion

kaymin · 25-07-2010 04:09PM

Week 5 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|49|233
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

Summary for me:
Monday Rest
Tuesday 4 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1-2 mile cool down
Wednesday 10 miles easy
Thursday 8 miles easy
Friday 2 mile warm up, 3x2k HMP 2-3 min recovery, 2 mile cool down
Saturday 50 minute steady kayak - ignored for the mileage summary
Sunday 16 miles LSR - 152 mins / 7min even per mile

ecoli wrote: »

Hope everyone is getting on ok? be nice to get a bit of feed back from people to see how they coping with it.

Any questions just shout

This week has been the toughest week so far. I need to concentrate more on keeping to the paces (rather than going harder) for the marathon specific sessions. I was happy with todays LSR - I got into an easy rhythm - breathing was controlled but my legs felt heavy - probably from the hard sessions earlier in the week. I could have kept going at the same pace for another few miles though.

Tried one isogel today for the first time - no ill effects so I'll be using them on all future LSRs.

Overall I'm coping well with the training - I haven't felt run down at all and haven't suffered any significant niggles. To date I've been doing 80% of my training on grass but I'll be doing the marathon specific sessions on tarmac so that % will fall a little in future.

ecoli · 25-07-2010 04:46PM

kaymin wrote: »

This week has been the toughest week so far. I need to concentrate more on keeping to the paces (rather than going harder) for the marathon specific sessions. I was happy with todays LSR - I got into an easy rhythm - breathing was controlled but my legs felt heavy - probably from the hard sessions earlier in the week. I could have kept going at the same pace for another few miles though.

Tried one isogel today for the first time - no ill effects so I'll be using them on all future LSRs.

Overall I'm coping well with the training - I haven't felt run down at all and haven't suffered any significant niggles. To date I've been doing 80% of my training on grass but I'll be doing the marathon specific sessions on tarmac so that % will fall a little in future.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Every run is a piece of the jigsaw and complement each other so runs that are easy should be easy and runs that MP should be MP. Given the fact that this was the first week of sessions you should not be feeling run down (hopefully). You should get into a habit where you will prob be fairly tired during the weeks training. That is okay as long as it is comfotably tired and not to the point where every training session you are dreading with how you are feeling. There are "down" weeks incorporated into the plan also to help ensure that the training does not break you down. these occur in week 9 and 13 and they coincide with the 10 mile and half marathon from the race series.
Doing your MP work on the road is grand just regarding the HMP you can do these on road aswell if you like but they should be on a flat short loop or track ideally just to take out external factors such as elevation and with track you are able to accurately maintain the pace

Keep up the good work

Speedy44 · 25-07-2010 05:31PM

Summary for me:
Monday - 5.5mls recovery
Tuesday - 8.25mls easy
Wednesday - 40min fartlec
Thursday - off
Friday - 2 mile warm up, 2x12min THR 4min recovery, 2 mile cool down
Saturday - 6.5mls easy
Sunday - 14 miles LSR with 4mls @ pmp (27:05). Average pace for run, 7:25.

Speedy44 · 25-07-2010 05:34PM

kaymin wrote: »

Week 5 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|6 | 52.75 | 127.75|
kaymin|n/a|5|49|233
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

ELFOYZER · 25-07-2010 10:38PM

Week 5 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|6 | 52.75 | 127.75|
kaymin|n/a|5|49|233
ELFOYZER|3.29|6|50|243
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

Hey e-coli, just checking in, much better week for me. Managed to run within my current limits and not push too hard. Feel grand after it. Really enjoyed the Hills on Tuesday and HMP session on Friday. Weekly summary as follows -

Monday - REST ( Core and Stretching = 45min)
Tuesday - 4mile easy; 4x2min with jog back; 1 mile cooldown (Khyber Pass. Phoenix Pk) + 30 min swim later*
Wednesday - 10 mile (easy/steady)
Thurdsay - 6 mile (easy)
Friday - 2 mile easy; 3x 2km HMP +2min rec jog; 2 mile easy**
Saturday - 4 mile recovery (+ 40 min core+ stretch)
Sunday - 15.5 mile LSR

*Swim was great for loosening up the legs.
** HMP was at 4:15 - 4:20/km (~6:55/mile). Happy with this pace for now as I know I will improve over 10 miler, half and main event.

ELFOYZER · 26-07-2010 03:37PM

Hill Repeats
Last week I maintained a 'steady' pace (7:30/mile) on each of the repeats with a jog back down to bottom before firing off up again. I was happy enough to jog back, given walking back would have taken +3mins.

Tomorrow, I'm planning on running them a little harder, say somewhere between MP and HMP(<7:15/mile). No doubt, this will require a greater effort. Just wondering is this the way to go?

I have the typical 'training staleness' in the legs but apart from that I feel fine, which makes me think should I be pushing harder? For some reason, last week felt less of an effort for me, so much so that I could run the hill session today, but I recognise the rest day is as important.

Stretching
I noticed other posters were having knee problems but managing them with stretching, icing, compression, etc. I have had similar problems over the past few weeks but have been managing the 'niggles' very well, although I believe my knee problems are more back/hip/hamstring related - it's complicated!!!
I now stretch quite a lot (never really did before) and that along with core sessions and reqular icing have really helped. Its all static stretching for me and I feel my little routine works very well for me.
(PS - still can't touch my toes with straight knees though:()

ecoli · 26-07-2010 04:51PM

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Hill Repeats
Last week I maintained a 'steady' pace (7:30/mile) on each of the repeats with a jog back down to bottom before firing off up again. I was happy enough to jog back, given walking back would have taken +3mins.

Tomorrow, I'm planning on running them a little harder, say somewhere between MP and HMP(<7:15/mile). No doubt, this will require a greater effort. Just wondering is this the way to go?

I have the typical 'training staleness' in the legs but apart from that I feel fine, which makes me think should I be pushing harder? For some reason, last week felt less of an effort for me, so much so that I could run the hill session today, but I recognise the rest day is as important.

Stretching
I noticed other posters were having knee problems but managing them with stretching, icing, compression, etc. I have had similar problems over the past few weeks but have been managing the 'niggles' very well, although I believe my knee problems are more back/hip/hamstring related - it's complicated!!!
I now stretch quite a lot (never really did before) and that along with core sessions and reqular icing have really helped. Its all static stretching for me and I feel my little routine works very well for me.
(PS - still can't touch my toes with straight knees though:()

Regarding your hills. Going a bit faster is grand for my hill reps i run at roughly 6 min pace which was 7 seconds outside my HMP but on a constant hill so by the end i was fairly tired so that might give you an idea of what kinda paces.

Regarding training you should be feeling fine a little tired but nothing major there is no reason to feel at the end of every week like you couldnt manage another day without rest. The idea is that we are building the aerobic base to to point where you are running as efficiently as possible. This is the difference with traning for the shorter distances as its a different type of hurt than you would get from an anaerobic session. The fact that you can handle the training without straining yourself too much is good because if you flat out every week and are constantly tired while building you are not peaking properly and not running to your full potential. as the weeks build in mileage you should be a little tired but nothing to major but come the taper you will feel super human and that is what we want

ELFOYZER · 27-07-2010 09:40AM

Great session in Park this morning before work ( and rain!)

Pushed hard on the hills to hit HMP pace - effort felt like 5k:eek:. No HRM so no idea what the ticker was doing.
4mile easy,
2 min @ 6:52/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:47/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:42/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:26/mile, 3 min jog back
1 mile cooldown

Speedy44 · 27-07-2010 02:04PM

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Great session in Park this morning before work ( and rain!)

Pushed hard on the hills to hit HMP pace - effort felt like 5k:eek:. No HRM so no idea what the ticker was doing.
4mile easy,
2 min @ 6:52/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:47/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:42/mile, 3 min jog back
2 min @ 6:26/mile, 3 min jog back
1 mile cooldown

Good session to get in at that time of the day. You must have been up early! It normally takes me a good 6hrs of been wide awake before I can even think about running that fast.

ELFOYZER · 27-07-2010 02:27PM

Speedy44 wrote: »

Good session to get in at that time of the day. You must have been up early! It normally takes me a good 6hrs of been wide awake before I can even think about running that fast.

Yeah, bit of a morning person so I am.:) In Phoenix Park for 7am, session done just after 8. Mind you, I'll probably be flaked out on the couch for the evening.:(

ecoli · 27-07-2010 03:00PM

Speedy44 wrote: »

Good session to get in at that time of the day. You must have been up early! It normally takes me a good 6hrs of been wide awake before I can even think about running that fast.

+1 on this i cant do sessions in the morning only way i can is if it 11 or twelve and i been up for hours. Then again i work nights so prob has something to do with it my body only properly wakes up around 2-3

Bloody Nipples · 27-07-2010 06:35PM

Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||150
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|3|22|98.5|

Last week got away from me but i'm back this week, hopefully get all the sessions done, though I may have to shuffle them around.

donothoponpop · 27-07-2010 10:38PM

Did tonights hill repeats on a local trail, nothing too steep, but boy, do they hurt! Even though I've run loads of mountains, I tend to avoid the lactate sessions, preferring a long slow steady climb. Pace was nothing special, but when its a matter of counting down the last 40 secs, I think the effort intensity was right!

On stretching- I never stretch before a training run. Would do some stretching before intervals all right, or before a race, and very little after. Warm up and cool down jog would be more likely. Lately I've been taking cold showers after training, which I'm told are good for recovery (guess a cold bath would be better again).

ELFOYZER · 30-07-2010 12:44PM

Hey there, just checkin in -
Ran 11 miles easy on Wednesday evening as planned - went well.

Last night I had intended running 8 mile easy, but ended up going to club track session = 3.8k easy; 6x3min @~6:25/mile with 2 min recovery; 2 x 150m accelerations; 5k easy run home. ~10miles all in.

Not sure about tonight, legs are a bit heavy - thinking of running 6 miles easy; then 4 mile rec on sat and 8+8mile on sunday as planned.

ecoli · 30-07-2010 05:31PM

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Hey there, just checkin in -
Ran 11 miles easy on Wednesday evening as planned - went well.

Last night I had intended running 8 mile easy, but ended up going to club track session = 3.8k easy; 6x3min @~6:25/mile with 2 min recovery; 2 x 150m accelerations; 5k easy run home. ~10miles all in.

Not sure about tonight, legs are a bit heavy - thinking of running 6 miles easy; then 4 mile rec on sat and 8+8mile on sunday as planned.

Scratch the fartlek anyway for certain as you have a session done already so swap it for a hard day. See how the legs are feeling today between 6-8 should be grand the idea is dont do too much and remember you have your recovery tomorrow and 8 miles MP to keep in mind at the weekend during your LSR. At the end of teh day today is to aid in recovery from your hard days so if it is a struggle today just leave it at six

Slogger Jogger · 30-07-2010 07:12PM

Off topic slightly for this thread but discussing Rob Heffernan's 2nd 4th place in race walking in the Euros they said that he reckoned he can 'walk' a sub 3 marathon. Now that just makes me depressed :rolleyes:

ecoli · 30-07-2010 07:25PM

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Off topic slightly for this thread but discussing Rob Heffernan's 2nd 4th place in race walking in the Euros they said that he reckoned he can 'walk' a sub 3 marathon. Now that just makes me depressed :rolleyes:

I wouldnt worry to much Rob is quite the runner and when he was younger ran 33 for 10k and there walking pace is not far off running pace

ecoli · 30-07-2010 11:52PM

Just a heads up for anyone following the plan if you are interested i am thinking of trying to organize a group LSR in Phoenix Park. I thought might be good to try and get a few people together (including myself) for a bit of moral support. If anyone is interested let me know and if there is enough numbers we will organise this. Can be a chance to put names to faces in the build up to DCM. Also for people not in dublin if there enough maybe you can organise amongst yourselves?

What do people think?

Others welcome to of course if they want the time and pace will be decided before hand to give people an indication and even if there are others who are doing shorter runs could maybe tag along

donothoponpop · 31-07-2010 12:56AM

ecoli wrote: »

Just a heads up for anyone following the plan if you are interested i am thinking of trying to organize a group LSR in Phoenix Park. I thought might be good to try and get a few people together (including myself) for a bit of moral support. If anyone is interested let me know and if there is enough numbers we will organise this. Can be a chance to put names to faces in the build up to DCM. Also for people not in dublin if there enough maybe you can organise amongst yourselves?

What do people think?

Others welcome to of course if they want the time and pace will be decided before hand to give people an indication and even if there are others who are doing shorter runs could maybe tag along

Great idea- would love to come, but I live in South Wicklow, so unlikely unless the planets align.
Likewise, anyone who's around South Wicklow, more than welcome to link up for an LSR.
Best of luck with it ecoli!

kaymin · 31-07-2010 11:07AM

ecoli wrote: »

Just a heads up for anyone following the plan if you are interested i am thinking of trying to organize a group LSR in Phoenix Park. I thought might be good to try and get a few people together (including myself) for a bit of moral support. If anyone is interested let me know and if there is enough numbers we will organise this. Can be a chance to put names to faces in the build up to DCM. Also for people not in dublin if there enough maybe you can organise amongst yourselves?

What do people think?

Others welcome to of course if they want the time and pace will be decided before hand to give people an indication and even if there are others who are doing shorter runs could maybe tag along

Sounds good to me - I do most of my runs in the Phoenix park.

donothoponpop · 31-07-2010 12:09PM

I'm actually driving up to Dublin tomorrow morning- would anyone be interested in doing the 8easy+8MP tomorrow in the Phoenix Park?

ecoli · 31-07-2010 12:43PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

I'm actually driving up to Dublin tomorrow morning- would anyone be interested in doing the 8easy+8MP tomorrow in the Phoenix Park?

Im in work im afraid but maybe few others around?

ELFOYZER · 31-07-2010 12:51PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

I'm actually driving up to Dublin tomorrow morning- would anyone be interested in doing the 8easy+8MP tomorrow in the Phoenix Park?

I'm meeting up with a running buddy in the park at the popes cross tomorrow morning. I plan to run 8 miles easy with him @ 8:15/mile pace and then run the 8mile MP on my own @7:15/mile pace (I'm not up to the sub 3 pace yet!)
We normally head out at 7:30-8am, probably a bit early for ye? What time would you be in the Park? How are you fixed Kaymin?

2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

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