2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

ecoli

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments

smmoore79

Will be keeping an eye on this one with keen interest. I'll be aiming sub 3 in Dublin but will be following a plan with a little less mileage (P&D 18 week 55 mile max plan).

theboyblunder

ecoli wrote: »

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments

good idea ecoli. thanks.

Im trying for sub 3 but in longford...will be watching closely for good advice

donothoponpop

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10||


Great, look forward to working on this!

theboyblunder

ecoli wrote: »

The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

Just checking - thats per week right?

Oisin11178

theboyblunder wrote: »

Just checking - thats per week right?

Are you a man or a mouse:-)
Good idea. Its come to early for me but ill be dipping in and getting some training tips.

RacoonQueen

Not that I'm aiming for sub-3 at this point but how many 65 mile weeks will there be? Do people reckon that you need to push the mileage that high in order to run sub 3? I think the clown ran it on the 55 mpw schedule?

ecoli

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Not that I'm aiming for sub-3 at this point but how many 65 mile weeks will there be? Do people reckon that you need to push the mileage that high in order to run sub 3? I think the clown ran it on the 55 mpw schedule?

65 is the max the mileage would go during the plan. There are only 2 60+ weeks the majority are around 55. Agree that there are some people who can do it on less, I know people who have missed out on the 3hr mark doing 65+ and know people who have done it on 40 but as this is a general plan rather than tailoring for a specific person.

ecoli

theboyblunder wrote: »

Just checking - thats per week right?

yes that is in one week. Don't be alarmed though there is a building phase to this you are not thrown in at the deep end.

theboyblunder

ecoli wrote: »

yes that is in one week. Don't be alarmed though there is a building phase to this you are not thrown in at the deep end.

Cheers ecoli. Thats great - im more or less doing that kind of thing at the moment most weeks so feel nice and validated (wont last long - prob until my next pmp run ). I am following P&D but substituting the med-long runs for PMP runs of similar distances.

Looking forward to your take on things training the Dublin hopefuls.

ecoli

Just to give people a taste of the schedule i will post a few of the key weeks from the schedule to give people a better idea of where i am coming from

Week 1
Mon Rest
Tues 8 miles easy
Wed 6 miles easy + 4x200m strides
Thurs 8 miles easy
Fri 4 miles easy
Sat 7 miles easy
Sunday 8 miles easy

Week 5
Mon Rest
Tues 4 miles easy, 4x2 min hills, 2 mile cooldown
Wed 10 miles easy
Thurs 8 miles easy
Fri 2 mile warm up, 3x2k @ HMP, 2 mile cooldown
Sat 6 miles recovery
Sun 16 miles easy

Week 10 (max week)
Mon Rest
Tues 8 miles easy
Wed 12 miles easy
Thurs 2 mile warm up, 2 x 3m @ HMP, 2 mile cool down
Fri 8 miles easy
Sat 6 miles easy
Sun 20 miles easy

Week 13 (race week)
Mon rest
Tues 8 miles easy
Wed 7 miles easy
Thurs Rest
Fri 2-3 miles recovery
Sat HALF MARATHON
Sun 6 miles easy

Week 15
Mon Rest
Tues 8 miles easy
Wed 10 miles easy
Thurs 2 miles warm up, 5 x 3 min hills, 2 miles cool down
Fri 8 miles easy
Sat 4 miles easy
Sun 10 miles easy 10 miles @ MP

Krusty_Clown

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Do people reckon that you need to push the mileage that high in order to run sub 3? I think the clown ran it on the 55 mpw schedule?

'...the clown'? 55 mpw schedule maybe, but I ran a fair bit more than the plan specified. I was running 55-62 miles a few weeks. The only difference between that and 65 miles is a 4-5 mile recovery run.

Looks like a good plan... No doubles?

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

'...the clown'? 55 mpw schedule maybe, but I ran a fair bit more than the plan specified. I was running 55-62 miles a few weeks. The only difference between that and 65 miles is a 4-5 mile recovery run.

Looks like a good plan... No doubles?

I was considering putting them in as i am a great advocate of doubles(as seen in my own log) but with life's stresses i thought getting out once a day would be a better option for people in general as it can be hard to get out once a day with commitments in general.

tempo

I think this is a good idea,hopefully people can share their ideas and problems along the way.
While your input an enthusiasim is great im not sure if you are experienced enough to be giving out plans for sub 3hour marathon.

Krusty_Clown

ecoli seems has a solid understanding of the necessary principles (far more than most sub-three runners). I'm sure the more experienced runners will be quick to drop in and offer some advice and encouragement, and where it's done in a positive way, productive feedback.

I look forward to watching this thread develop, and hopefully use some of the advice for my next goal.

shels4ever

Looks good one thing that I found really helpful in some plans was the flexibility of an optional session, not sure if this is something you coudl work in.

It mainly focused on the person and what their strong and weak areas were. For for example someone how may have slightly slower base speed could work on that in one session, and another person could do strenght work on the same day. In that way the plan would cater for people across the board and not be just another generic plan.

This way its closer to coaching as apposed to just setting a ridged plan to follow. But would need more communication between coach and running.

Peckham

Will be watching this with interest and hopefully will be able to contribute, but I'm aiming for Berlin (4 weeks before Dublin), so won't make sense for me to follow the training.

ecoli - do you plan to include anything faster than PMP within your long runs? Having read Daniels I'm interested in the tempo pace segments he includes within a few long runs.

Also, what pace range would you use for "easy" for a sub-3 candidate? Do you differentiate between long run easy and recovery?

ecoli

tempo wrote: »

I think this is a good idea,hopefully people can share their ideas and problems along the way.
While your input an enthusiasim is great im not sure if you are experienced enough to be giving out plans for sub 3hour marathon.

I understand your concern regarding me giving out plans. The truth is when i was first approached about mentoring this thread i said the exact same thing and some where approached and given first refusal because while i feel that i can get people under three like you pointed out i have not completed a marathon. My running experience extends extends to half marathons of which i have ran 1.17 and paced a 1.29. This plan was not taken lightly and alot of research and my own experience of 70+ mile weeks has been thought out to create the plan.
Many people may not want to follow my advice for this reason which is understandable but it gives the people the option if they are looking for one or have tried with other plans and they didnt work out for them

ecoli

shels4ever wrote: »

Looks good one thing that I found really helpful in some plans was the flexibility of an optional session, not sure if this is something you coudl work in.

It mainly focused on the person and what their strong and weak areas were. For for example someone how may have slightly slower base speed could work on that in one session, and another person could do strenght work on the same day. In that way the plan would cater for people across the board and not be just another generic plan.

This way its closer to coaching as apposed to just setting a ridged plan to follow. But would need more communication between coach and running.

This seems to be alot more like coaching and depending on the numbers i may be able to do this. I have few athletes which i have started to coach like this but this thread was more lines of the other mentoring threads. Ideally schedules should be completely specific to the athlete but some times we can't always get that. Again the numbers may be determinant of how much personal communication can be given

aero2k

Hi ecoli,

Great idea for a thread. Best of luck with it, the structure looks good.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Do people reckon that you need to push the mileage that high in order to run sub 3?

Hi RQ,

I'm still working on my detailed retrospective training log for Edinburgh. I was surprised to find that over 30 weeks, my average mileage was 55pw, and since I run every day that's only 7.9 per day. If I skipped an easy run I'd only have been at 50pw. The longest week was 69 miles, with a few over 60.
I'll have to have a look back for DCM '09, but I suspect the mileage was a little less then. I'd put the improvement since down to more quality, i.e. faster sessions.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I look forward to watching this thread develop, and hopefully use some of the advice for my next goal.

Come on now Krusty, don't be coy....

ecoli

Peckham wrote: »

Will be watching this with interest and hopefully will be able to contribute, but I'm aiming for Berlin (4 weeks before Dublin), so won't make sense for me to follow the training.

ecoli - do you plan to include anything faster than PMP within your long runs? Having read Daniels I'm interested in the tempo pace segments he includes within a few long runs.

Also, what pace range would you use for "easy" for a sub-3 candidate? Do you differentiate between long run easy and recovery?

Mostly within the long runs the quickest would be at MP. There are workouts which work at HMP which will clock a up to 8 miles in the session as this pace. These sessions as well as hills help to give the strength needed to compliment long runs.

Easy runs should be at comfortable talking pace while i don't like giving exact figures but rather an athlete to listen to there body i would say pace should be somewhere between 7.15 - 7.45

Krusty_Clown

aero2k wrote: »

Come on now Krusty, don't be coy....

Lol. There's no coy! 2:48:xx or die trying (not literally!).

shels4ever

ecoli wrote: »

I understand your concern regarding me giving out plans. The truth is when i was first approached about mentoring this thread i said the exact same thing and some where approached and given first refusal because while i feel that i can get people under three like you pointed out i have not completed a marathon. My running experience extends extends to half marathons of which i have ran 1.17 and paced a 1.29. This plan was not taken lightly and alot of research and my own experience of 70+ mile weeks has been thought out to create the plan.
Many people may not want to follow my advice for this reason which is understandable but it gives the people the option if they are looking for one or have tried with other plans and they didnt work out for them

I dont think you need to have run sub 3 to coach some to sub 3 . Ok it may help in some regards but not all great coaches were great runners . I'll be keeping a good eye on this thread now

tempo

shels4ever wrote: »

I dont think you need to have run sub 3 to coach some to sub 3 . Ok it may help in some regards but not all great coaches were great runners . I'll be keeping a good eye on this thread now

I do agree with what you say and i have alot of experience of running myself but If you havn't ran a certain distance how can you relate to people on the so called ''wall'' or differn't aspects that are specific to the marathon.
I think its a great idea and probably Ecoli is one of the most knowledgeable on this site.
hope we get good feedback from People on here and who want to share there thoughts and ask some questions.

ecoli

13 days till the plan kicks in time for a Roll call to get people to know each other (if we have any:p)

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10||
smmoore79| 3.10||

smmoore79

ecoli wrote: »

13 days till the plan kicks in time for a Roll call to get people to know each other (if we have any:p)

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10||

Im not very good with IT so Stick me down in that table above! Cheers! PB is last years Dublin in 3 hr 10 mins. Hopefully next PB will be Dublin this year :rolleyes:

runningcoach

100 % agree with shels4ever. Best of luck Ecoli with it.

Speedy44

ecoli wrote: »

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
Speedy44 - 3:26 - 47mls - On the way

donothoponpop

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10|40|
smmoore79| 3.10||
Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way:)

smmoore79

donothoponpop wrote: »

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10|40|
smmoore79| 3.10|26|
Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way:)

update

ecoli

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10|40|
smmoore79| 3.10||
Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way:)

Hope everyone's training is going well. Just a quick reminder that training plan will start from next week i will put up the weeks training in the next day or two. If we have anyone else who is interested dont be afraid to speak up and let yourself be known we dont bite i promise

donothoponpop

Great, looking forward to getting started.:)

Tergat has not been posting on Boards lately, as he is busy with coaching elsewhere, but he kindly agreed to drop by from time to time, and give his input into this thread. So anyone who wants to benefit from ecoli's mentoring, with tergats assistance, get your name down in the next week, and lets break some barriers:)

lazarus_

ecoli does sounds like a great idea. i coach quite a group of athletes in the UK and was wondering as i usually coach up to half marathon myself and all my study and advice from uk endurance coaches and mark rowland have revolved around many a lot of similar basis for the marathon structure.

1) could you explain to me your view on anaerobic threshold training and how it would be incorporated into your program?
2) will you use HR as a guide at all? if so, based on the PR's provided what HR range would you put your athletes in for the aerobic, anaerobic and VO2 Max work?
3) will you incorporate hillwork for that strength endurance? if so, what structure will it take?
4) speed endurance is key is what i always say- u mention alot about MP and HMP but in the majority of cases you need significant speed insurance to run and finish strong a marathon, what sort of speed endurance will you structure into your program? and what pace would a 3hr group target in this session?

Once again, i think this is a fantastic idea to help some people and wish you the best. I m just curious to see another coaches perspective on this as the four i mentioned above are integral to my coaching and the success i have had.

ecoli

lazarus_ wrote: »

ecoli does sounds like a great idea. i coach quite a group of athletes in the UK and was wondering as i usually coach up to half marathon myself and all my study and advice from uk endurance coaches and mark rowland have revolved around many a lot of similar basis for the marathon structure.

1) could you explain to me your view on anaerobic threshold training and how it would be incorporated into your program?
2) will you use HR as a guide at all? if so, based on the PR's provided what HR range would you put your athletes in for the aerobic, anaerobic and VO2 Max work?
3) will you incorporate hillwork for that strength endurance? if so, what structure will it take?
4) speed endurance is key is what i always say- u mention alot about MP and HMP but in the majority of cases you need significant speed insurance to run and finish strong a marathon, what sort of speed endurance will you structure into your program? and what pace would a 3hr group target in this session?

Once again, i think this is a fantastic idea to help some people and wish you the best. I m just curious to see another coaches perspective on this as the four i mentioned above are integral to my coaching and the success i have had.

Thanks for the support. By the sounds of it you have alot more coaching experience than me. As i have stated in this thread i have only recently started coaching people and would not be qualified (as of yet). The idea was i was approached to help try and mentor as best possible with my knowledge (through research and experience as a runner). As such i dunno how much insight i would be able to give you in comparison to qualified coaches from endurance uk however i will answer to give you an insight into my own coaching philosphies and hhopefully give athletes more of an insight into the background to the plan that i intend to prescribe

1) could you explain to me your view on anaerobic threshold training and how it would be incorporated into your program?

I think that this is an aspect which is crucial to any plan. I intend to phase this in after the base building phase and from here alternate it with the HMP sessions which aim to develop the aerobic capacity.The idea is to stay between sub threshold to threshold in order to raise your capacity. This is safer as too much threshold pace is likely to contribute to glycogen depletion and residual muscle fatigue which will create and adverse effect. This was the approach i used during my own half marathon training and in my opinion became the corner stone to my development

2) will you use HR as a guide at all? if so, based on the PR's provided what HR range would you put your athletes in for the aerobic, anaerobic and VO2 Max work?

Short answer for this would be no. I have tried using heart rates in my own training in the past personal experience i didnt find this to be as useful for development. I have researched it a bit but would be by no means an expert and as such this could be a reason for why i didnt find it as useful as many people who base all their training by it. For me the fact that so many things (such as weather,sleep, stress etc.) can contribute to this means that their are so many variables in a days training that i think it may be hard to do a generalized plan for a group of people i do not have face to face contact with may be quite problematic.

3) will you incorporate hillwork for that strength endurance? if so, what structure will it take?

Hillwork i feel is a major factor for distance running from middle to long. Here i was able to gain alot of insight from an international IAAF coach who kindly helped with my understaning of this. These will be seperate sessions of hill reps of duration between 2-3 min. These seem to be optimal for long distance runners with shorter durations of 1 min - 90 seconds being prescribed as more beneficial for more middle distance athletes


4) speed endurance is key is what i always say- u mention alot about MP and HMP but in the majority of cases you need significant speed insurance to run and finish strong a marathon, what sort of speed endurance will you structure into your program? and what pace would a 3hr group target in this session?

For marathon training i would be more inclined to keep this aspect of a marathon plan to a minimum. As the Marathon is almost 99% aerobic i feel that there is less need to be training within anaerobic zones. Again this is a generalized plan and as such i think anaerobic training would be more personalized in terms of marathon plans as the majority of athletes looking to the 3hr mark i would feel benefit more from the aerobic development gained from aerobic based sessions as opposed to eroding their aerobic capacity (to some degree) through these sort of sessions

Again as i have said before i am not a qualified coach at the moment and these views you may feel to go against your own experience. While i am the mentor here this thread is designed as support and as such people are free to (and encouraged) to contribute and i am sure that with your background in coaching people would be happy for you to give your input.

lazarus_

Ecoli im rushing out so ill just point out the main things that grasped me.

1) you said that anaerobic threshold was a crucial part to any plan. Then you went on in the end to say that marathon is 99% aerobic so anaerobic does not really factor into things? this has me confused.
2) if you do think anaerobic is crucial like you originally said - how do you intend to discover the anaerobic threshold obviously blood lactate is not possible so to work off heart rate is by far the best measure possible to your group that combined with 'feel' and discussion with athletes.
3) I recommend from my experience that you sit down with some experienced marathon runners and ask them about what they did regarding speed endurance as i know many highly successful marathon runners and they all incorporate some even swear by speed endurance so i think it is one of the most vital preperation.. workouts like 4 mile warm up, 5*mile, 3*1km, 1*800m 3*400 have proved very successful for me or even basic things like 20*400m with a mile before and after. in terms of AT threshold 2-3 sets of 20min with 60 seconds is very successful.

anyway, i think you should research, communicate with the experienced coaches in your area and perhaps even take a step back before two forward as there is many avenues about marathon preperation that need to be channeled before you take on a couple of months of someones life and time as it is a very complex and structurally definitive journey for an athlete and as a coach if this doesnt work its not easy to take. the best coaches know when they are not ready for something and are always learning that being said if people are willing to be your guinea pigs more power to you as u will i know for a fact learn a lot.

ecoli

lazarus_ wrote: »

Ecoli im rushing out so ill just point out the main things that grasped me.

1) you said that anaerobic threshold was a crucial part to any plan. Then you went on in the end to say that marathon is 99% aerobic so anaerobic does not really factor into things? this has me confused.

I do believe this to be crucial but only in small amounts and also it is possible to develop your anaerobic threshold through running sub threshold paces as through this your previously anaerobic training develops into aerobic. Sessions should be give ample recovery time and only after a high level aerobic base has been built up. Even up to once a week can lead to glycogen depletion and residual muscle fatigue

Based on the theories of Lydiard and Livingstone


[/QUOTE]2) if you do think anaerobic is crucial like you originally said - how do you intend to discover the anaerobic threshold obviously blood lactate is not possible so to work off heart rate is by far the best measure possible to your group that combined with 'feel' and discussion with athletes. [/QUOTE]

You have a point in it being one of the easiest ways of identifying threshold and if athletes base there training off HRM then This may be added to the plan but for those who dont i will aim for percieved effort based on current fitness levels and Race paces


[/QUOTE]3) I recommend from my experience that you sit down with some experienced marathon runners and ask them about what they did regarding speed endurance as i know many highly successful marathon runners and they all incorporate some even swear by speed endurance so i think it is one of the most vital preperation.. workouts like 4 mile warm up, 5*mile, 3*1km, 1*800m 3*400 have proved very successful for me or even basic things like 20*400m with a mile before and after. in terms of AT threshold 2-3 sets of 20min with 60 seconds is very successful. [/QUOTE]

I have talked with marathon runners from 2.35 - 3.15 range in order to get as best a picture of what has worked and what hasn't in order to establish what would be beneficial to the majority. As i have not done a marathon i thought this was the best way to ensure that i can give people the best possible plan i could devise.I was suprised to find that very few considered speed endurance workouts to be one of their main components to their marathon plans. Also referring to your idea of AT threshold work out i think this might be suited to more elite marathon runners only they have built up aerobic base over a number of years

DON’T do the threshold runs for an hour- that’s too long for most people: to get the effect you’re after without knocking yourself around too much, try something like 20 mins w/up: 20 mins A.T. tempo: 20 mins cool-down.

Healthy Intelligent Training - Ken Livingstone

[/QUOTE]anyway, i think you should research, communicate with the experienced coaches in your area and perhaps even take a step back before two forward as there is many avenues about marathon preperation that need to be channeled before you take on a couple of months of someones life and time as it is a very complex and structurally definitive journey for an athlete and as a coach if this doesnt work its not easy to take. the best coaches know when they are not ready for something and are always learning that being said if people are willing to be your guinea pigs more power to you as u will i know for a fact learn a lot.[/QUOTE]

I understand your concern regarding this and i have said from the start i was approached to give my insight i did not go looking for this role (though i did offer private coaching to willing guinea pigs previously). The thread starts by saying it is not a certainty but that i ensure that i intend to give to the best of my ability people a chance to break the mark. This thread is not designed to tell people how to training but rather provide an alternative to people who have made attempts previously using other plans and have be unsuccessful. I am fully confident that my approaches can provide this but like i said i am open to input from other posters as at the end of the day we are all students for the entirety of our lives

lazarus_

i am going to pull one thing from all you said and that is your quote which u tried to give me which is absolutely ludicrious. you cannot use AT threshold for 20mins on a 1500 metre runner regardless a marathon runner. Your AT threshold is a pace you should be able to hold for about 13 miles give or take. And to suggest 20mins is sufficient shows a clear lack of experience. especially as the 2nd 20miniute interval is the one where your heart rate level has levelled off and you gain the most benefit - blood lactates prove this. The first half of the original 20mins is spent trying to force your blood lactate/hr into the AT Zone. any athlete can run a correctly structured AT threshold as its a very individualized spectrum. if you don't learn to correctly manage and incorporate this into the programmes you are setting yourself up for a fall in the long term as it is a vital ingredient but one which takes extreme caution to understand and develop. Quotes from books and dropping names like Lydiard doesnt mean anything without the experience of trial and error with individuals and the modern study and qualifications. it takes years to develop an athlete and a plan that suits them - an athlete of any ability.

- learn about anaerobic threshold training, the scientific footing, the structure. It will help you and anyone whom you take under your wing. your clearly a young eager guy but quouting 'healthy intelligent training' highlights the need to get proper coaching qualifications.

I spend hours everyday, writing schedules every one individual - no athlete is the same. i get daily feedback from every athlete, keep a journal for each athlete and this is how u learn what works for each athlete as noone athlete is the same and by throwing everyone in together, some will thrive and some will flounder and thats when you need to be able to step in and know what to change and how to change it

village runner

Easy boys. Ecoli has stated he aint a coach so let him make his own mistakes if he does. Dont knock it until he gives it a go and let his pupils give their feedback.

tisnotover

village runner wrote: »

Easy boys. Ecoli has stated he aint a coach so let him make his own mistakes if he does. Dont knock it until he gives it a go and let his pupils give their feedback.

+1 to this ^^.

I'm always suspect of posters coming on to boards with < 10 posts to their name. your questions seem heavily loaded to me lazarus.

ecoli

lazarus_ wrote: »

Quotes from books and dropping names like Lydiard doesnt mean anything without the experience of trial and error with individuals and the modern study and qualifications. it takes years to develop an athlete and a plan that suits them - an athlete of any ability.

- learn about anaerobic threshold training, the scientific footing, the structure. It will help you and anyone whom you take under your wing. your clearly a young eager guy but quouting 'healthy intelligent training' highlights the need to get proper coaching qualifications.

I spend hours everyday, writing schedules every one individual - no athlete is the same. i get daily feedback from every athlete, keep a journal for each athlete and this is how u learn what works for each athlete as noone athlete is the same and by throwing everyone in together, some will thrive and some will flounder and thats when you need to be able to step in and know what to change and how to change it

The reason for quoting this book was not to act as proof but rather to support my own anecdotal evidence from my own training for which i have applied all my theories to in order to try and establish what works and what doesn't as i agree training is about trial and error.
I dont see how quoting a book shows a need for proper coaching. Granted i am not qualified and i do intend to pursue this in the very near future (have been hounding the AAI for a coaching calendar update) however through comparison with other research and the insights given to me by runners of high quality (sub 15 5ks and sub 70 half guys) who swear by this book i approached it with an open mind in order to try and gain a broader understanding of principles of training used to develop my own coaching style. While i do not agree with everything in the book i do see many aspects to be of sound basis in my opinion. This is an approach i take with all research in order to try and find what works.
I applaud your efforts as a coach and with my own athletes i have taken this approach however i am not "coaching" these athletes but rather mentoring from my own personal knowledge i have made this clear from the start and the people who have expressed an interest have come to this decision under no false pretenses. Ideally every athlete should have there own personalized coach without a doubt however this message board is designed to give people a place to gain insight from fellow athletes as we can not all ideally come under a personal coach for whatever reason. These are the reasons why the development of generalized plans such as P&D, Hal Higdon and many others have come into being
Village Runner and tisnotover i realize you were trying to end this bit of tooing and frowing my response was to give the athletes who intend to follow the plan a fuller picture from both sides. The most important thing for an athlete is to have confidence in their training plan and its long term aims

donothoponpop

Ecoli had offered free coaching online for any sub-3 wannabe's, with the explicit understanding that this was his first foray into marathon coaching, so it would be a learning experience on both sides...

As someone interested in this, I signed up, and then suggested that ecoli take this a little bit further, and mentor a sub-3 thread for the benefit of everyone on Boards who wanted to follow it. He was a little hesitant owing to lack of experience, but happily accepted the task. Tergat has agreed to cast his eye over the thread from time to time, so there will be a very experienced aide in the wings.

Anyone signing up is well aware they are getting what they paid for. Ecoli, you shouldn't feel the need to explain yourself to anyone who joined Boards for the explicit purpose of giving their differing opinion. Lazarus, if you want to start your own sub-3 mentoring thread, and offer to coach posters here for free, by all means go right ahead. But don't try and derail this thread before its even started.

tisnotover

Best of luck with the log ecoli !

Will be following with interest to see if I can pick up some tips for next time.

ecoli

I appreciate people defending my position, though if i do not address all questions tackled i will not be given athletes who wish to follow my plan a fair overview of the principles which the training is based on so i will attempt to answer them to the best of my ability from my own knowledge (again this is not absolute fact but rather reasons which i base my principles on)

Optimally yes a fully developed athlete would optimally benefit from the second session because they have developed their aerobic base to the point where they have maximized their muscle recruitment of type 1 muscle fibers and increased the capillary density but these two factors have been found to be directly correlated to training volume. As such at beginning of this plan i feel that the sacrificing of these benefits are outweighed by the avoidance of residual muscle fatigue and glycogen depletion (if these sessions are carried out on too regular a basis). This may be a cautious approach but as you have said before i am not in daily contact with these athletes who are trusting me with the next 18 weeks of their lives so i would prefer to take a more cautious approach to insure that i get these athletes to the start line fully fit and in shape to tackle their goals

Your initial motive as you have claimed was to gain insight into my training perspective as a coach and though i feel that your motives seem to have shifted (or were falsely stated at the start) i feel i have answered these sufficiently. Again i am not claiming these principles are the be all and end all in terms of training. These are my believes and i hope that they give you an insight into my coaching approach as you wished to gain at the start of this debate

tergat

lazarus_ wrote: »

i am going to pull one thing from all you said and that is your quote which u tried to give me which is absolutely ludicrious. you cannot use AT threshold for 20mins on a 1500 metre runner regardless a marathon runner. Your AT threshold is a pace you should be able to hold for about 13 miles give or take. And to suggest 20mins is sufficient shows a clear lack of experience. especially as the 2nd 20miniute interval is the one where your heart rate level has levelled off and you gain the most benefit - blood lactates prove this. The first half of the original 20mins is spent trying to force your blood lactate/hr into the AT Zone. any athlete can run a correctly structured AT threshold as its a very individualized spectrum. if you don't learn to correctly manage and incorporate this into the programmes you are setting yourself up for a fall in the long term as it is a vital ingredient but one which takes extreme caution to understand and develop. Quotes from books and dropping names like Lydiard doesnt mean anything without the experience of trial and error with individuals and the modern study and qualifications. it takes years to develop an athlete and a plan that suits them - an athlete of any ability.

- learn about anaerobic threshold training, the scientific footing, the structure. It will help you and anyone whom you take under your wing. your clearly a young eager guy but quouting 'healthy intelligent training' highlights the need to get proper coaching qualifications.

I spend hours everyday, writing schedules every one individual - no athlete is the same. i get daily feedback from every athlete, keep a journal for each athlete and this is how u learn what works for each athlete as noone athlete is the same and by throwing everyone in together, some will thrive and some will flounder and thats when you need to be able to step in and know what to change and how to change it

lazarus,

To be fair to Ecoli he has stated his coaching experience and made it quite clear of his intentions for this mentoring idea. I am sure if you go back a number of years to when you first started coaching, there was an eager to learn younster in you too and hopefully still is. A wise coach told me once "you must be like the jackdaw and beg, borrow and steal". This is the only way people learn. We have to beg, borrow and steal ideas from numerous coaches/books/websites etc and try them out and see what works. A coach has to start somewhere and the best way to do this is to actively coach. This mentoring effort will teach Ecoli more than he can pick up in any book.

Anaerobic Threshold training (LT/maxlass/steady state whatever the flavour of the month) is very important to athletes from 800m-Marathon. There are many different zones to work in around this range (80%-92% of Max HR) and many ways of achieving the same goal (long tempos, short tempos, LT intervals etc). What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 min a mile at a 4-mmol level a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective.

I agree with your comments on coaching. When coaching a runner, I find out their natural capacities through verbal discussion and observation. I consider the time-frame of their progression to a goal race. I also think about the demands of that race. And, last but not least, I consider their current fitness level. I won't give the exact same training to runners who vary in ability, tendencies, natural capacities (attributes), or time-frames that vary, if that makes sense. In Ecoli's case here, it will be a general plan for lots of individuals so individual attention is impossible.

Leave him to it, he will learn so much along the way. A coach once said to me "It's about the journey and not the destination" and how right he was.

Tergat

misty floyd

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments
donothoponpop|3:10|40|
smmoore79| 3.10||
Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way:)
misty floyd|3:00|32.3|


3:00:30 for me in Rotterdam in April this year. Gone backwards since with injury, weight gain and enjoying myself . This weekend is my last blowout for a while so this is good timing for me anyway.

Very glad you are doing this Ecoli, the group work ethic will be excellent for motivation and I hope you enjoy the process. I hope several more add their names, did you advertise on the sub 3 thread....I didn't check. I'm happy with the plan I went with for Rotterdam but I'm open to some variations so long as its not too rigid.

So for me sub 3 is my goal but I'll be hoping for faster than that, will see how it goes.

Cheers. Good luck comrades!

SUNGOD

would love to get involved but after 12 months of injury im way off the pace at the moment.
but i will still be checking regularly to see what kind of sessions etc everyone is doing.
best of luck to everyone doing this and to ecoli in setting this up
hopefully i will join ye next year

ecoli

Hey Guys

Will be starting to post the training plan from tomorrow (stuck in work dont have access to it at the moment to do it now). Regarding the plan would people prefer me to do week by week or post a few weeks at a time? Some people find they like to know what's in store in the week or two in advance and some like to take it one day at a time so i will leave it to the majority

Hope peoples build up has been going well

ecoli

SUNGOD wrote: »

would love to get involved but after 12 months of injury im way off the pace at the moment.
but i will still be checking regularly to see what kind of sessions etc everyone is doing.
best of luck to everyone doing this and to ecoli in setting this up
hopefully i will join ye next year

Best of luck getting back into things hopefully ya will get back to fighting form before too long

asimonov

best of luck lads. i look forward to seeing the progress through the next 18 weeks - as a baseline i would love to know your current 5k / 10k / 1/2 marathon PB's.

donothoponpop

@ ecoli: each week at a time suits me, although happy to see whats down the road too.

@asimonov: no 5Kpb, 40:40 10k, 1:28 half. Hope to destroy the 10k one in a couple of months.

kaymin

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments

donothoponpop|3:10|40|

smmoore79| 3.10||

Speedy44|3:26|47|On the way

misty floyd|3:00|32.3|

kaymin|n/a|7|




Goes against all the rules to try for a sub-3 hour marathon for the first try but I plan to do only one marathon ever so I want to make it a good one.

Very low mileage this week because running is not my main sport but that'll change for the next 4 months.

I'm not a complete novice....did the Kildare half in 1:24 last month with very haphazard running training so I'm hopeful of achieving the target by following ecoli's plan.