2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

kaymin

donothoponpop wrote: »

Can I suggest we discuss fartlek this week, seeing as it will be introduced?

I've done very few fartlek sessions so don't have much to contribute

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's a great thread on strides (and other sessions) here. Must say I'm a bit puzzled at the suggestion to do strides prior to an easy run- I had been doing them during, and lately after, the run. If the idea is to improve running form, surely its a better idea to try and improve this form when you're flagging a bit?

When does everyone else do strides? Before, during, or after?

I've been doing strides after the run on the basis that I'm warmed up and doing strides first off might cause me injury.

ELFOYZER wrote: »

In full marathons I wear a 4 bottle fuel belt and hang them out of that, taking 1 gel +1 bottle of water every 10k or so.
I guess I'm wondering should I be rethinking the nutrition - pre-fueling, during training and after?

I haven't been re-fueling during training to date but I do eat a banana / drink a sweet drink very soon after each session. Once I go above 13 miles on the long run I intend trying to re-fuel during the session since I'll need to get used to it for the marathon.

ELFOYZER

Hi Ecoli,

Quick question on the programme,
I'm assuming (and hoping!) that there will be easy weeks, following a series of progressively hard training weeks.
Could you give me some idea of what your plans are, in particular - what weeks will be at an easier intensity.
I am considering getting a sports massage during the easy/taper weeks.

Also guys, what are your thoughts/experience on this?

Cheers,

Elfoyzer

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Hi Ecoli,

Quick question on the programme,
I'm assuming (and hoping!) that there will be easy weeks, following a series of progressively hard training weeks.
Could you give me some idea of what your plans are, in particular - what weeks will be at an easier intensity.
I am considering getting a sports massage during the easy/taper weeks.

Also guys, what are your thoughts/experience on this?

Cheers,

Elfoyzer

There are few actual "down" weeks and are normally around the 10 mile and half marathon so are more tapers however the plan has weeks when the target sessions will be less demanding on the body than others to prevent break down and there will be many runs which are designed for recovery to help rather than actually fully weeks easy.

I would recommend a regular sports massage possibly the day before a recovery day which gives you that night the recovery day and also the time the following day until your next training session. This prob the best time or even the tues or wed the week of a race

Krusty_Clown

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I am considering getting a sports massage during the easy/taper weeks.
Also guys, what are your thoughts/experience on this?

The only thing is that they're not cheap, so it's not something you would want to do too regularly. I'm not sure what other guys pay, but I would pay my physio around 60 euro for 60-75 minutes. They are hugely beneficial though (particularly after a significant race, with another one coming up soon in the schedule).

Krusty_Clown

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I guess I'm wondering should I be rethinking the nutrition - pre-fueling, during training and after?

On the nutrition side, I have found that avoiding fueling during training is beneficial, with the exception of long runs (where I would still try and run pretty lean). I don't think I could cope with a 15 mile morning run without having had a breakfast though. Have you done this before?

For LSRs (15+ miles) I'll bring money and get a bottle of water and carry an isotonic gel (no water required) and take the gel if I need it. For 20+ mile LSRs I'll buy two bottles of water, stopping just long enough to drink them and definitely take the gel (and also carry a spare just in case).

In the race, I'll take an isotonic gel every 6-8 miles as needed, and water at every station. Works for me!

ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

There are few actual "down" weeks and are normally around the 10 mile and half marathon so are more tapers however the plan has weeks when the target sessions will be less demanding on the body than others to prevent break down and there will be many runs which are designed for recovery to help rather than actually fully weeks easy.

I would recommend a regular sports massage possibly the day before a recovery day which gives you that night the recovery day and also the time the following day until your next training session. This prob the best time or even the tues or wed the week of a race

Thanks for that - pretty much what I had in mind too.

Hey Krusty, you're dead right sports massages are not cheap.
I am planning on chatting to my sports therapist to see if I can get a better rate if I book a number of sessions over the next 16 weeks or so.

ELFOYZER

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't think I could cope with a 15 mile morning run without having had a breakfast though. Have you done this before?

15 milers for breakfast - yeah baby!!!
I've run up to 25k on air at an easy pace, maybe a slice of toast and almost always a good 500ml of water before heading out.

Any longer and I'd use the gel every 40 min - that's a great idea buying the water when you're out.
Difficult though when in the Phoenix Park, although I would loop back to the car for a slurp of water. I know people stash bottles in bushes but I reckon thats just looking for trouble - (NB : stay away from the yellow water!)

Krusty_Clown

I was thinking the other day, some entrepreneur should really set up a stall selling plastic cups of water for 20c a pop in the Phoenix Park at weekends. You'd make a fortune. You could even set it up race-replica style, with a table and a bin 100m later.
*edit*. Sorry for the off-topic..

donothoponpop

I missed yesterday's session, so joined two runs together (6 steady, 8 easy) this morning before breakfast. A bit of water before I left was all I needed- I'm a great believer in "training" your body to do without fuel taken while running (anyway I've copious fat stores:rolleyes:). Anything over 17 and I'd be looking at taking an iso drink.

During a marathon I'll take a gel after 10 miles or so, and maybe another two later on. No harm in taking a gel with you on runs over 13 miles or so, just in case. I've bonked a couple of times (training and racing) before.

ecoli

donothoponpop wrote: »

I missed yesterday's session, so joined two runs together (6 steady, 8 easy) this morning before breakfast. A bit of water before I left was all I needed- I'm a great believer in "training" your body to do without fuel taken while running (anyway I've copious fat stores:rolleyes:). Anything over 17 and I'd be looking at taking an iso drink.

During a marathon I'll take a gel after 10 miles or so, and maybe another two later on. No harm in taking a gel with you on runs over 13 miles or so, just in case. I've bonked a couple of times (training and racing) before.

you mean you did 6 of the 8 steady or did 14?

donothoponpop

ecoli wrote: »

you mean you did 6 of the 8 steady or did 14?

6 steady, followed by 8 easy. So 14 in total. Not ideal, but I couldn't get out yesterday at all, and I wouldn't have been able to get out for a second run today.

ecoli

donothoponpop wrote: »

6 steady, followed by 8 easy. So 14 in total. Not ideal, but I couldn't get out yesterday at all, and I wouldn't have been able to get out for a second run today.

At this early stage i would say you can get away with this but in terms of later in the training plan this will do more harm than good so prob better if a session is missed dont try to make up for it later in the week unless you can swap your rest day. If this is not possible unless it is a key session or your LSR its ok to miss it and if it is one of those days try be flexible and do these instead of one of your planned easy days.
Life commitments come up the main thing is to learn to roll with the punches:)

kaymin

ecoli wrote: »

At this early stage i would say you can get away with this but in terms of later in the training plan this will do more harm than good so prob better if a session is missed dont try to make up for it later in the week unless you can swap your rest day. If this is not possible unless it is a key session or your LSR its ok to miss it and if it is one of those days try be flexible and do these instead of one of your planned easy days.
Life commitments come up the main thing is to learn to roll with the punches:)

I did the 7 mile 'steady' run this morning at a pace between steady and hard. I'm aware that the focus at this stage is building aerobic capacity, however, is there any harm in doing a couple of runs a bit faster than steady now and again? I wasn't breathing that heavy so I don't think I went anaerobic - I didn't have any lactic build-up anyways. Maybe I'll be glad of all the easy / steady runs when you start giving us tempos!

btw - I did the 10 mile easy tonight - there was a good 14 hours between runs. Felt fresh enough this evening.

village runner

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Don't mean to cut accross the 'stride' discussion, but I was wondering if you guys refuel during training.
I'm curious because I very rarely gulp gels or water during any of the sessions, even on long runs up to 15 miles.
I tend to run early in the morning so breakfast is a 500ml bottle of water, maybe a slice of toast if I feel hungry. I'd eat and drink properly when I get back in from the run.
I'm not a big 'gel' fan but use them on longer slow runs ( +15miles) and always use them in half and full marathons. For half M's I carry 1 gel, taking it at 10 - 15k. In full marathons I wear a 4 bottle fuel belt and hang them out of that, taking 1 gel +1 bottle of water every 10k or so.
I guess I'm wondering should I be rethinking the nutrition - pre-fueling, during training and after?

Why would you carry a water bottle in a marathon if its only water in it. Surely that would weigh you down. Do they not give out enough water on the course. Carrying gels is ok but water is a waste unless you have something like dioralyte in them.

ecoli

kaymin wrote: »

I did the 7 mile 'steady' run this morning at a pace between steady and hard. I'm aware that the focus at this stage is building aerobic capacity, however, is there any harm in doing a couple of runs a bit faster than steady now and again? I wasn't breathing that heavy so I don't think I went anaerobic - I didn't have any lactic build-up anyways. Maybe I'll be glad of all the easy / steady runs when you start giving us tempos!

btw - I did the 10 mile easy tonight - there was a good 14 hours between runs. Felt fresh enough this evening.

At the moment the idea is to get people to be able to cope with the mileage and then cope with the speed however if you are able to the odd fast one is okay though i would prefer steady.
However from next week will me including fast sessions and as such the easy days should be just that easy. Running hard on your easy days then will not give your body time to recover needed to gain the benefits from the sessions. This can lead to erratic performance and general fatigue.
As most people say the training for a marathon is only 50% the other fifty is getting to the start line fit and healthy and as such each session in the training plan has its own specific purpose.
Trust me as the weeks go on there will be a few days when you will be glad of the easy days;)

Bloody Nipples

Hey lads is it cool if I slot in from monday on? I think this is a fantastic idea and I know it would benefit me much more than my own routine which generally consists of just running to a certain mileage. And all my runs are generally at faster than MP which is probably a HUGE no no. No real variation in pace or specialised sessions either.

ecoli

Welcome along bloody nipples the more the merrier. Given your mileage base from your last marathon you shouldnt have too much trouble assimilating into the plan
Regarding the running faster that MP it can be why you managed to get such large improvements between your marathons in the past but as you get to a higher level like 3hr you have to start training smart rather than fast always.

I try to post the weeks plan on weekend to allow people to see it before the weeks starts however if ppl will be away from the comp for a bit dont be afraid to PM me and i can send them on the next few weeks training

ELFOYZER

village runner wrote: »

Why would you carry a water bottle in a marathon if its only water in it. Surely that would weigh you down. Do they not give out enough water on the course. Carrying gels is ok but water is a waste unless you have something like dioralyte in them.

Very good point VR. In training on my longer runs (16-23milers) I would carry a fuel belt with water and gels. I suppose I got into the habit of doing the same on the marathon. (Didn't want to change anything I did from training, even though all I had to do was meander through the waterstops and grab a bottle!)
I didn't really find the weight of the belt any hinderance, although I did loose a bottle on NCR - very annoying:mad:
I'm gonna go with the water on course this year, although every second counts!

ecoli

Right people roll call!!
Everyone still alive and kicking??

Right this week will be the first with a marathon specific session. Again not quite in full swing but after this week there will be 2 workouts a week

Week 4
Mon Rest
Tues 8 Miles (easy) + 4x200
Wed 8 miles (easy)
Thurs 2x(3,2,1) EP,MP,HMP all continuous running *
Fri 4 miles recovery
Sat 6 miles easy
Sun 15 miles easy


*EP- easy pace MP marathon pace HMP- half marathon pace

Again be sensible this should be at current pace not projected as this is 12 miles of constant running and as such gonna be hard enough without killing yourself trying to hit sub 3 pace if you are not there yet. Again it is early stages so you have time to get to the pace needed and also you are gonna have 16 and half miles in your legs from the two days previous so if you are not at the pace you want to be at dont be disheartened

Bloody Nipples

Is the 4x200 in the tuesday session to be incorporated into the run fartlek style or done seperately?

ecoli

preferable to be done after your run and should be roughly 5 k pace walk full recovery. The idea here is for them to be alactic to work on running form rather than a session in themselves

ELFOYZER

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|35| 101
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|45|87
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|5|43|80
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||


Guys, think this is the latest summary table I'm working from?
This week for me -
Monday - REST
Tuesday -11 mile (easy)
Wednesday - 6 mile (steady) No strides as I ran to work:rolleyes:
Thursday - 3mile (easy): LT track session 4 mile(varied ~6:20/mile); 3mile (easy) = 10 miles total
Friday - 12 miles (easy)
Saturday - Run workshop (Catriona Mc Kiernan) ; 4 miles (recovery)
Sunday - nothing, on my feet all day marshalling at aquathlon in Skerries!

As I said earlier, this would be a messy week for me. Had to chop and change a bit. Knee is fine, hoping for a sports massage and rest tomorrow
to prepare for week ahead.

ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

Right people roll call!!
Everyone still alive and kicking??

Right this week will be the first with a marathon specific session. Again not quite in full swing but after this week there will be 2 workouts a week

Week 3
Mon Rest
Tues 8 Miles (easy) + 4x200
Wed 8 miles (easy)
Thurs 2x(3,2,1) EP,MP,HMP all continuous running *
Fri 4 miles recovery
Sat 6 miles easy
Sun 15 miles easy


*EP- easy pace MP marathon pace HMP- half marathon pace

Again be sensible this should be at current pace not projected as this is 12 miles of constant running and as such gonna be hard enough without killing yourself trying to hit sub 3 pace if you are not there yet. Again it is early stages so you have time to get to the pace needed and also you are gonna have 16 and half miles in your legs from the two days previous so if you are not at the pace you want to be at dont be disheartened

I could be wrong here, but isn't this WEEK 4?!?!

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I could be wrong here, but isn't this WEEK 4?!?!

Correct you are changed the training sessions for the week but not the title oops:o

smmoore79

smmoore79 wrote: »

Still cant change the table. Summary for me this week has been 5 sessions and 35 miles total for the week. Total miles from the start is 101 miles (3 weeks training). Next weeks mileage is 42 weeks, arghh!

Summary for me this week is 5 sessions and 42 miles total. 4 weeks training now completed..

Resting now after 15 miles today, feel a bit fatigued after it, lucky ive a rest day tomorrow so should be grand for next run on Tuesday!

kaymin

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|5|43|80
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||

Did 14 miles today - my longest run ever! Instead of the 8 miles fartlek yesterday, I did the 48k Carlingford adventure race - it involved getting soaked to the skin, alot of mountain biking, hill running and a bit of kayaking at a reasonably leisurely pace - so I've equated it to 8 miles for the purposes of the summary table. Was interesting to see how my body coped with doing exercise non-stop for 6 - 7 hours.

ecoli

kaymin wrote: »

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|5|43|80
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||

Did 14 miles today - my longest run ever! Instead of the 8 miles fartlek yesterday, I did the 48k Carlingford adventure race - it involved getting soaked to the skin, alot of mountain biking, hill running and a bit of kayaking at a reasonably leisurely pace - so I've equated it to 8 miles for the purposes of the summary table. Was interesting to see how my body coped with doing exercise non-stop for 6 - 7 hours.

Congrats on what looks like a hell of a weekend. Given the fact that your 14 miler came day after Carlingford is definitely one that will make the DCM seem a little easier. Dont sell yourself short in no world does 48k = 8 mile Keep up the good work

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

preferable to be done after your run and should be roughly 5 k pace walk full recovery. The idea here is for them to be alactic to work on running form rather than a session in themselves

Just a quick question here as an independent observer Why are the strides 200 long. Would 100 metres not be enough and perhaps only do 6. Perhaps I am mistaken but many coaches advocate only 600 metres of such work. I look forward to your reply.

Reaganomical

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|5|43|80
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|


Good week last week - Monday off, Tuesday:8 easy, Wednesday:am - 4 v easy & core/strength in gym, pm: 7 steady + strides; Thursday: 6 easy; Friday: 6 "easy" in typhoon conditions; Saturday:8 fartlek; Sunday 13 easy

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Just a quick question here as an independent observer Why are the strides 200 long. Would 100 metres not be enough and perhaps only do 6. Perhaps I am mistaken but many coaches advocate only 600 metres of such work. I look forward to your reply.

I would like to give a scientific long winded answer to this question but i am afraid i dont have one. This is something bred purely out of habit. My former coach had me do this and i found them more beneficial than the shorter in terms of feeling i was concentrating on my form. I just felt that with the shorter strides you are finished before you have time to actually pay attention to your form.
I know people may disagree with this one this is more a case a conclusion derived from trial and error over the years