'Inception' Mega Thread *SPOILERS FROM POST 292 ONWARDS*

nosco

Sad Professor wrote: »

Saw this for the second time last night and enjoyed it just as much as the first time. It seemed even more straightforward on a second viewing. For that reason, I wouldn't rate it amongst Nolan's best (TDK, The Prestige), but as summer blockbusters go it is in a league of its own.

Re: the ending

The film is very carefully designed in such a way as to not give solid evidence either way for it being a dream or not. The whole point of the film is that Cobb can never be sure about "reality". The totems are not reliable - they can be locked away and forgotten about or manipulated by another dreamer, as we saw with Mal. But one can't live their life constantly doubting reality. In the end, Cobb chooses his reality. It's the one that seems right to him, and he doesn't need to see the top fall to believe it. Whether it really is "reality" or not doesn't matter to him anymore.

It does matter to us, of course. And as others have said, this is where Nolan performs his own inception on the audience by making them question the whole idea of reality. Which is quite a heady philosophical question for a summer action film to be asking.

Fair dues to u. There were something that I still just can't wrap my head around. Maybe u can help.

Where did cobb and saito go after shooting themselves(presumably)in limbo. They were still under sedation, so needed a kick to wake up. So where did they wait for the sedative to wear off? Just don't really get it.

Sad Professor

nosco wrote: »

Where did cobb and saito go after shooting themselves(presumably)in limbo. They were still under sedation, so needed a kick to wake up. So where did they wait for the sedative to wear off? Just don't really get it.

Well, we don't really know because the film deliberately skips over that question. But if you believe that the ending is reality, then it must be assumed that they didn't go anywhere, they just woke up. Enough time had passed for them in Limbo that the sedative had worn off and killing themselves knocked them back to reality, where everyone else was already waking up anyway.

However, by doing a hard cut from Saito's hand on the gun to Cobb waking up on the plane, Nolan is being deliberately ambiguous in order to leave open the possibility that they didn't wake up. As many people have pointed out, we don't know how the rest of the crew got back to "reality" either. They presumedly would have had to wait out the sedative, which would have been a week in the first level of the dream. But since Nolan doesn't show us their (or Cobb's) transition back to reality, we can't be sure. As I said above, this is all by design. Nolan wants us to debate the ending.

nosco

Sad Professor wrote: »

Well, we don't really know because the film deliberately skips over that question. But if you believe that the ending is reality, then it must be assumed that they didn't go anywhere, they just woke up. Enough time had passed for them in Limbo that the sedative had worn off and killing themselves knocked them back to reality, where everyone else was already waking up anyway.

But thats what doesn't jibe with me. If the sedative had worn off then they would have woken up anyway, killing themselves or not. So there is no way the seaditive had worn off by the time they killed themselves. So, i guess what i'm wondering is what the hell happened them from the time they killed themselves to waking up. What 'level' were they on. Pretty sure they were both dead on all the other levels. I know its all interpretation etc but nothing makes sense in my head.

Klingon Hamlet

Vokes wrote: »

Hey, thats a good catch (plot hole?). By your logic above it must be Cobb who is dreaming the castle level, which directly contradicts what we're told about him later.

It was Arthur's dream...soon as he leaves, the dream began to disintegrate.

amacachi

Saw it tonight, decent film but to me not the masterpiece it was made out to be. It was mostly fairly straightforward I thought and it didn't make me care enough to want to watch again to check some details.

Klingon Hamlet

nosco wrote: »

But thats what doesn't jibe with me. If the sedative had worn off then they would have woken up anyway, killing themselves or not. So there is no way the seaditive had worn off by the time they killed themselves. So, i guess what i'm wondering is what the hell happened them from the time they killed themselves to waking up. What 'level' were they on. Pretty sure they were both dead on all the other levels. I know its all interpretation etc but nothing makes sense in my head.

I think because the dreamers exited, the dreams disintegrated, meaning the levels themselves withered away, leaving only Limbo and Reality.

Thing is it was mentioned early on that you only remember the middle of a dream, never the beginning. Note how each level begins midway. Even the final wake-up is abrupt, wwhich could indicate that when Saito shot himself, Cobb remained in his own Limbo...or else they both killed themselves, and woke suddenly and a bit spinny onboard the jetplane.

All open to interpretation. Hence the awesomeness and rewatchability.

Teg Veece

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

They had an architect there with them, the guy who rats them out soon thereafter. It was his dream.

I'm fairly sure that the second level of the dream wasn't the architect's dream because he was dreaming the first level - he says it himself - and stays there to kick the others out of their dream.

Klingon Hamlet wrote:

It was Arthur's dream...soon as he leaves, the dream began to disintegrate.

I guess it must have been Arthur's dream. It doesn't really make sense that Saito and Cobb were still running around in his dream even though Arthur was awake and walking around but maybe Nolan took some poetic licence here.

Okay, one more question. If you get to limbo by dying in a dream while under sedation, how did Cobb and Ariadne get there by just going to sleep and dreaming on Level 3. Shouldn't they just have gone to a Level 4 dream?

Otacon

Teg Veece wrote: »

Okay, one more question. If you get to limbo by dying in a dream while under sedation, how did Cobb and Ariadne get there by just going to sleep and dreaming on Level 3. Shouldn't they just have gone to a Level 4 dream?

They used Fischer's dead body on level three to go down.

nosco

Otacon wrote: »

They used Fischer's dead body on level three to go down.

?? They just dreamed deeper. The same way Cobb and Mal did it the first time.

Mike Litoris

Haven't seen this yet and have stopped myself getting excited by it. I loved The Prestige and Begins but absolutely hated TDK. In your view(s) would you liken it more to TDK than the other two?

Sad Professor

In terms of style, it is very much a continuation of TDK. Mann seems to be Nolan's main influence at the moment.

gosplan

I would personally have said that at the end, Cobb was either in reality or a dream where he could be with his kids. We're not really told which but he's happy in either case.

Found this on IMDB though. It's kind of damning evidence for those like me that would have thought the movie's end was deliberately ambiguous.

** WARNING: This is long, and every word of it contains spoilers. Beware **

It is NOT a dream: The WEDDING RING gives it away.

I have now seen this movie three times. The first time I saw it I thought it was not a dream and he was home. When I saw discussions to the contrary, I saw it again looking for any clues to tell whether he is dreaming the whole time, and questioned the ending thoroughly. It was not until I saw a post about someone saying he is only wearing a wedding ring when he dreams. Multiple people shot it down saying that they saw him wearing it in reality or that he was not wearing it in this dream or that one. My third viewing had me looking for the ring in almost every shot, seeing if his totem ever falls in a dream (Something someone said happened), looking at his children's faces to see if they are the same, etc.

My analysis as follows:

The Wedding Ring:

We start the movie with Cobb in limbo with Saito, he is wearing a ring. Step back to the beginning, he is trying to convince Saito to let him into his mind to help protect it, this takes place in a dream two layers down. He is wearing a wedding ring. Things go south and we wake up in the apartment, where we think an angry mob is really coming down the street. They threaten Saito's life with him thinking it is reality, only for him to discover otherwise. In this entire scene Cobb is wearing a wedding ring. Wake up on the train, NO WEDDING RING. In the hotel suite on the phone with his kids, NO WEDDING RING. On the roof talking to Saito, NO WEDDING RING. France, the architecture university, NO WEDDING RING. The coffee shop in Ariadne's first shared dream, Cobb is wearing his wedding ring, she freaks out. They wake up in the workshop, NO WEDDING RING. They go back under and Ariadne explores the physics of the dreamworld, again Cobb is wearing a wedding ring.

Cobb goes to see Eames, the entire time not wearing a ring. He meets the new chemist, still no ring. The chemist gives him a quick taste of his latest potion, in that scene we get a quick glimpse of his hand with a WEDDING RING. Wakes up, no ring. See the pattern?

So finally, the inception. We are on the plane, we clearly see is not wearing a ring. Level 1, WEDDING RING, Level 2, WEDDING RING, Level 3 WEDDING RING, Limbo he is wearing his WEDDING RING.

After he meets Saito as an old man, the conversation continues past what we saw in the beginning, yet even here he is wearing a WEDDING RING still. Then, when Saito reaches for the gun, we are on an airplane. He is not wearing a wedding ring here.

HERE IS THE KEY. As he is walking through the terminal, no ring, as he is greeted by father in law, no ring, when he gets home and spins his totem, no ring.

In his dreams he is married to Mul still, as she can still exist there. In reality, he knows she is dead and does not wear a wedding ring as he is no longer married. A simple yet easily unnoticed way to test which parts are reality.

Not done there, I investigated another thing, Cobb's totem:

I have seen many posts of people saying his totem falls when he is in others' dreams. This is simply not true. People say it wobbles and falls over in the beginning. I watched and listened closely, Saito spins the top and we hear it spinning as the scene cuts to the young Saito. Then, in the end when we see him old again, he looks down and it is still spinning, he knows he is not in reality and goes for the gun.

When Cobb uses inception on Mul, it continues and never stops. In the hotel after the failed Saito mission, it falls. A funny thing to note is that every scene in which the top spins endlessly he is wearing a WEDDING RING. In the scenes in which it topples, he is not.

Now, the awakening scene. Looks an awful lot like a dream right? Not really. He wakes up on the plane surprised, but everyone is smiling. They woke up from the sedatives, but Cobb and Saito were down in limbo. When they got back, everyone is happy to see he made it, Saito looks just as stunned only backing up the fact that he really snapped back to reality. They are all getting bags, going through customs, etc. Everyone looks at each other with a grin because they know inception worked and that Cobb is finally home. Not very dream-like except that it seems like a dream come true. Had the scene after he and Saito with the gun been him in his home, him on his way to his home, etc, I would think it is a dream. No, he awakens in EXACTLY the place he went to sleep to start inception. You never really know how you get to where you are in a dream do you? Then how does he know he is on a plane and just successfully completed inception on Robert Fischer, the man in front of him?

Finally, the home scene. Looks like a dream? In this case, yes it does. we see the children exactly where they were, doing the same thing, wearing the same clothes. They appear the same age. On my second viewing this was red flag that it was a dream. But on my third viewing I noticed slight differences, such as the kids looking slightly older. The cast list has two sets of kids listed, ones slightly older than the others. They are not voice casts but actual actors in the film. I especially noticed a difference as the camera pans towards the totem, I chose to focus on the back door with the kids. The girl is seen throwing herself on her father, in this scene she looks clearly older than the memory he has of her.

And of course, the totem itself. I watched each spin my third time through. It spun flawlessly for a while, began to wobble slightly, then started a hard wobble then fall. In the final scene it appears to be spinning smoothly for a long time, he probably gave it a lot of power. It starts to slightly wobble, and the screen goes black after it begins a HARD WOBBLE as if it is about to topple, not correct itself.

Conclusion: The movie isn't a dream, Cobb isn't caught in some "limbo that looks a lot like reality." Cobb spends the entire movie trying to get to his kids in reality, why would he settle for shades in a limbo? What proof is there that he is dreaming the whole time? If he is dreaming at the end, where is he dreaming? Limbo? So he goes from talking to Saito to just waking up on a plane, all as a part of a dream in limbo? Really? Think about it.

Nolan would never take the "eeet was aaaaalll a dreeeeaaaammmmm" cliche way out. But the fact that he cut the film before the top falls over does have a meaning. He is planting a seed of doubt in your mind. He uses inception on the audience to have them question the ending. The concept of the movie thus becomes reality to the viewer, a heavy thing to think about and something that hasn't been done before.

But all the evidence points to reality.

PhiloCypher

gosplan wrote: »

I would personally have said that at the end, Cobb was either in reality or a dream where he could be with his kids. We're not really told which but he's happy in either case.

Found this on IMDB though. It's kind of damning evidence for those like me that would have thought the movie's end was deliberately ambiguous.

Lets say the ring is an accurate indication of reality throughout most of the film , being that we see him let go of Mal in Limbo and seemingly wake up on the plane isn't it possible that Cobb never left Limbo and the rings absense is simply symbolic of that mental breakthrough .

tok9

gosplan wrote: »

I would personally have said that at the end, Cobb was either in reality or a dream where he could be with his kids. We're not really told which but he's happy in either case.

Found this on IMDB though. It's kind of damning evidence for those like me that would have thought the movie's end was deliberately ambiguous.

Still can't be sure imo..

I said in the thread earlier that it was fair enough to assume that when he's wearing the ring he's in a dream but not for the ending.

The reason for this is because he finally lets go of his wife in the previous dream so he wouldn't be wearing the ring in any of the dreams afterwards. This is all my opinion.

That said I do think he ends up getting back to his kids in reality

bnt

I've seen critics saying things along the lines of "there was no emotional depth, I couldn't empathise with Cobb at all", and so on. My experience was a little different, starting with the "elevator" metaphor for Cobb's mind. Note that he's the only character who has such a thing, and when I saw it my hair stood up on end.

Here's a character who is profoundly emotionally damaged, possibly to the point of being schizophrenic - barely hanging in there - and we can see how he's managed to compartmentalise his memories so effectively. I'm not a trained psychologist, but the elevator down to the "basement" was a major "oh, crap" moment for me. I really did not want to know what was in the "basement". And you want to tell me there's no emotional dimension to Inception? :eek:

rovert

Am I the only one who thought the whole complexity angle of the film is a tad over played? I followed it all the way though and the film did a great job of feeding you the premise on a piecemeal basis with the odd exposition here and there.

Renn

The odd exposition?

amacachi

rovert wrote: »

Am I the only one who thought the whole complexity angle of the film is a tad over played? I followed it all the way though and the film did a great job of feeding you the premise on a piecemeal basis with the odd exposition here and there.

I thought the way it was fed was overdone and the film suffered for it tbh. I agree though it wasn't that complex, I heard very little about it beforehand so wasn't expecting it to be, when I read up afterwards I was wondering if I missed something.

rovert

Just seen it today (yeah I know). For weeks I had people in my Masters course say oh "you got to pay attention, you got to pay attention." Ive been kind of outside of the bubble in regards to the hype. So it being complex was the factor which spoiled the movie for somewhat me rather than seeing an over hyped film too late so to speak.

It is a pretty awesome movie regardless dont get me wrong.

Otacon

tok9 wrote: »

The reason for this is because he finally lets go of his wife in the previous dream so he wouldn't be wearing the ring in any of the dreams afterwards.

The scene with Saito in the fortress or whatever in limbo takes place after this moment and he is still wearing the ring there.

rovert wrote: »

For weeks I had people in my Masters course say oh "you got to pay attention, you got to pay attention." Ive been kind of outside of the bubble in regards to the hype. So it being complex was the factor which spoiled the movie for somewhat me rather than seeing an over hyped film too late so to speak.

It is a pretty awesome movie regardless dont get me wrong.

Reading reviews before the movie, I was also bombarded with this 'complex movie' crap. The only thing is, it is true that its complex, the difference is the primary concept is actually very straight-forward.

The depth comes from how the music is used, see the videos earlier in the thread, or the theories, see the wedding ring one above.

In other words, its as complex as you make it really. The fact that Nolan pulls it off makes him my new favourite director.

rovert

Otacon wrote: »

In other words, its as complex as you make it really. The fact that Nolan pulls it off makes him my new favourite director.

Thats a good way of putting it.

I think the people who didnt get this film on a surface level are the same people who were confused by the end of Lost.

tok9

Otacon wrote: »

The scene with Saito in the fortress or whatever in limbo takes place after this moment and he is still wearing the ring there.

Hmmm... fair enough so.

Still, I don't think that will stop the debate.

Eddie Ere

I have avoided this thread since opening day, but have finally got to see this.


Excellent movie with a simple(ish), but cleverly pulled off concept that had me wondering where those two and a half hours went to so quickly.


I will enjoy reading back through this thread to see what theories have been put forward.

Mike Litoris

amacachi wrote: »

I thought the way it was fed was overdone and the film suffered for it tbh. I agree though it wasn't that complex, I heard very little about it beforehand so wasn't expecting it to be, when I read up afterwards I was wondering if I missed something.

Thats exactly how I feel about it. It really upset the pace of the film imo. That said, it was an exceptional movie. The last half an hour or so was just epic.

Rabidlamb

Once again, the wedding ring theory, this time with screencaps.
Seems very plausible.

http://revolvingdoorproject.net/2010/07/23/inception-what-happened-at-the-end/

magunkey

Excellent visual explaining Inception...don't click if you're still planning on seeing it.

FreeOSCAR

It didn't need an explanation tbh. Quite easy to follow.

mikhail

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

It didn't need an explanation tbh. Quite easy to follow.

I thought so too. Even Tom Clancy books have multiple threads interwoven; surely all but the dimmest people can handle that? The fact that it was the same characters in each of them is offset by the fact that the look of each thread, even the clothes and hair of the characters, is quite distinct.

Have many people found the graphic above (or one of the similar graphics knocking around) to have helped them? I ask because I'm curious about what fraction of the audience, er, lost the plot.

Antar Bolaeisk

mikhail wrote: »

I thought so too. Even Tom Clancy books have multiple threads interwoven; surely all but the dimmest people can handle that? The fact that it was the same characters in each of them is offset by the fact that the look of each thread, even the clothes and hair of the characters, is quite distinct.

Have many people found the graphic above (or one of the similar graphics knocking around) to have helped them? I ask because I'm curious about what fraction of the audience, er, lost the plot.

A lot of people seem to have been confused with Inception, in fact more than one have walked out of the film citing it as being far too confusing. As you said, the film is pretty straight forward and is no more complex than a film with multiple threads of a storyline playing out at the same time. What's worse is that Nolan puts the story on hold several times to explain to the audience just what is going on and people still insist on getting confused.

I think what's really happening is that Nolan is a very good magician, a lot of people are keeping a sharp eye out for give-aways for the upcoming twist sure that the entire film is being played out in Cobb's head and are, as a result, building too complex an image of what's really happening in their head. In reality the film is a simple reverse heist (as is blatantly stated at the beginning of the film) with the driving force behind it being Cobb's desire to fix one of his deepest regrets (Heck, even the coutdown song "non je ne regrette rien" is a massive arrow pointing at this).

The only conclusion I can draw is that most of the population must be stupid or we are very smart (probably a mixture of both )

strokemyclover

Great concept and a well made movie but I reckon it could have been done better. I was able to follow it pretty well and no complaints about the price afterwards which can't be said for a lot of movies these days......I'm looking at you Hot Tub Time Machine! :mad::pac: