'Inception' Mega Thread *SPOILERS FROM POST 292 ONWARDS*

tennessee time

what i never understood was if the totem was mals originally then it shouldnt work properly for cobb, so how do we ever know when we are in the real world

Patricide

Watched this this morning and iv been thinking about it all day. I think while the story was good and the visual style was fantastic the film was majorly let down by its characters.

I really didnt care about any of them. I wasnt routing for them throughout the whole film. I mean its a great film but it could have been so much more.

mikhail

There's a spoiler warning in the thread title, folks, so we can talk freely.

Sad Professor

mewso wrote: »

1. Cobb and Ariadnane (whatever) use the machine to go from level 3 to limbo. So there can only be 3 levels? Thought you had to die under the influence of the drug to go down to limbo.

Yeah, this never made sense to me either.

2. In level 1 Cobb says there is no point in killing Ken because he will end up in Limbo. Now when they get to limbo they simply kill themselves to get back to reality or in Ariadnananea's case just up one level (figure that one out). So why not say to Ken "Hey Ken, we are going to finish you off here. Simply kill yourself when you get there ok".

Killing themselves in Limbo only acted as a kick in the latter stages when the sedative was wearing off. I'm not sure what would have happened had Saito tried killing himself earlier - probably nothing, he would have reset in Limbo, perhaps similar to Cobb waking upon the shoreline.

Ariadne was able to get out of Limbo because she was able to sync her kick with the kick from the level above. I assume the same would have worked with Saito had they found him in time.

3. You may say well Ken will forget where he is in limbo (which is what happened) but neither Cobb or Ariadsomething forgot and Cobb for presumably years.

Ariadne wasn't there very long though, and Cobb had been there before and was far more experienced with dreaming than Saito. Saito may well have tried killing himself in the early stages with no result, except losing more touch with reality, and by the time the kick from above began he was already lost.

tennessee time wrote: »

what i never understood was if the totem was mals originally then it shouldnt work properly for cobb, so how do we ever know when we are in the real world

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier as well, and I think it's a very important point when interpreting the ending. The totem, especially Cobb's, wasn't fool-proof. So whether it falls or not at the end doesn't really matter. Cobb walks away because he believes he is home and that's enough.

PhiloCypher

Originally Posted by mewso
1. Cobb and Ariadnane (whatever) use the machine to go from level 3 to limbo. So there can only be 3 levels? Thought you had to die under the influence of the drug to go down to limbo

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah, this never made sense to me either.

They used the machine to access the dreams of fischer who had already died and was in Limbo .

Hedman

From what i gathered from the film, Limbo itself is just another level of the dream that hasn't been constructed by an architect. Ariadne constructs the different levels and then teaches them to the dreamers (Yusef, Arthur and then Eames). She has only designed 3 levels of the dream so therefore anything below is automatically limbo.

It doesn't mean once you go down there you automatically lose yourself, the danger is, as in Mals case, that you begin to re-create from your memory (eg. her childhood home, the house they lived in etc). Saito lost himself because he re-created the place we see him in at the very start of the film when Cobbs and Arthur are trying to break into his safe.

Bacchus

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah, I pointed this out earlier as well, and I think it's a very important point when interpreting the ending. The totem, especially Cobb's, wasn't fool-proof. So whether it falls or not at the end doesn't really matter. Cobb walks away because he believes he is home and that's enough.

I don't think it matters that it was Mol's totem before, because she is dead and therefore can never create a dream world in which to trap/trick Cobb. The reason you were never supposed to let someone else touch your totem was because then that person would know the physics of it and could recreate it in a dream.

Penn

Cobb could use Mal's totem because she was dead. If anyone who was alive had touched the totem, they could use it in a dream and make Cobb think the dream was reality. Even though Mal was in the dreams, they weren't her dreams so she'd have no effect on the totem.

Sad Professor

Can he be sure she was dead though? She claimed that what he believed was reality was just another dream. If you accept that there is even a possibility that she was correct, then the totem isn't reliable.

Penn

Well, if Mal had a totem, chances are Cobb originally had one too. Maybe that's how he knew Mal's death was in reality. Then maybe he took hers out of guilt.

But even then, nobody else had a problem with their totems, so I see no reason to believe that reality wasn't really reality

Sad Professor

The film clearly wants you to question wether it was reality though. The totems weren't fool proof, they could be manipulated as we saw with Mal's, which is why everyone was so protective of theirs. Maybe Cobb had one before but we didn't see it. The idea seems to have been Mal's and Cobb may only have adopted it after she died, but we don't know. Either way, It was probably a mistake for Cobb to use her totem.

missingtime

Someone mentioned to me that Cobb is wearing his wedding ring when he is dreaming and he is not wearing it in real life.

Did anyone else spot this?

Otacon

missingtime wrote: »

Someone mentioned to me that Cobb is wearing his wedding ring when he is dreaming and he is not wearing it in real life.

Did anyone else spot this?

Yup, pretty much tells you that it is real at the end. But people still question it.

Rabidlamb

1. Cobb and Ariadnane (whatever) use the machine to go from level 3 to limbo. So there can only be 3 levels? Thought you had to die under the influence of the drug to go down to limbo.

The heaviest sedatives could be used to enter limbo.
Using the dream machine within a dream to go down the levels.
This is what Cobb & Mol did that afternoon in their home & ended up spending 50 years down there.
This is what Cobb & Adrianne did from level 3 (Ice Fortress).
Killing someone under heavy sedative also sends them to limbo as their body cannot wake up in the real world.

2. In level 1 Cobb says there is no point in killing Ken because he will end up in Limbo. Now when they get to limbo they simply kill themselves to get back to reality or in Ariadnananea's case just up one level (figure that one out). So why not say to Ken "Hey Ken, we are going to finish you off here. Simply kill yourself when you get there ok".

Killing Saito in level 1 would have sent him to limbo as the sedative would have stopped his body from waking up on the plane.
Also sending him there that early in the process would have fried his brain as it would be centuries due to the time differential before Cobb would have got to him.
He wouldn't have remembered any instruction to kill himself, note Mol & Cobb spent 50 years there before Cobb even recognised it wasn't reality.
When the old Saito meets Cobb he recognises him from a "half remembered dream", nothing more.

In Adrianne's case she initiated the kick in time with the other levels, good timing perhaps but they felt a shuddder in limbo so they knew something was happening.
She didn't have to kill herself, just rode the kicks back to level one then wait by the riverbank for the sedative to wear off.

3. You may say well Ken will forget where he is in limbo (which is what happened) but neither Cobb or Ariadsomething forgot and Cobb for presumably years.

Cobb had been there before & it had taken him 50 years to recognise he was there.
Mol & himself may have been the only people ever to have reached limbo.
Cobb & Adrianne entered limbo by using the machine together in level 3 (Ice Fortress).
Cobb was with her then & explained they were in limbo as they walked up from the beach as the city crumbled.

Right, next question please.

Bacchus

Sad Professor wrote: »

The film clearly wants you to question wether it was reality though. The totems weren't fool proof, they could be manipulated as we saw with Mal's, which is why everyone was so protective of theirs. Maybe Cobb had one before but we didn't see it. The idea seems to have been Mal's and Cobb may only have adopted it after she died, but we don't know. Either way, It was probably a mistake for Cobb to use her totem.

Yes, Mal's was manipulated because Cobb gained access to it. They are fool proof (within the movies logic) BUT only if you keep anyone from ever coming in contact with it. I don't really see an argument for "it was all a dream". There is no evidence of it in the movie and any arguments for it seem to require that something else outside of the movies timeline occurred (which I would consider a massive cheat on behalf of the writers). What is up for debate though is "was the ending still a dream".

The wedding ring theory is a good one but still isn't proof enough for me. Cobb may have believed he was in the real world and his subconscious put the ring on his finger to complete the self-illusion that he finally got back to the real world with his children.

Rabidlamb

Bacchus wrote:

Yes, Mal's was manipulated because Cobb gained access to it. They are fool proof (within the movies logic) BUT only if you keep anyone from ever coming in contact with it. I don't really see an argument for "it was all a dream". There is no evidence of it in the movie and any arguments for it seem to require that something else outside of the movies timeline occurred (which I would consider a massive cheat on behalf of the writers). What is up for debate though is "was the ending still a dream".

The "whole thing was a dream" argument doesn't float with me as it would nullify the relationship built with the characters.
It does however create the interesting slant that Mol was the only one to return to reality after she committed suicide.

No, I believe that Saito made good on his promise & Cobb is back in the US with his kids.
Nolan shot that final scene with a dreamlike perception to play with our minds.
Dressing the kids in the same clothes adds to the debate.
Yet the end credits say that the kids were played by different actors.

tok9

tok9 wrote: »

I've one question though. So hopefully someone can help me Why didn't anyone wake up from the kick when they hit the water or was the kick just when they went over the bridge? If thats the case i still don't understand why Yasuf (driver) didn't wake up. I suppose the sedative

Rabidlamb wrote: »

They had to kick back down through all the levels.
From the ice palace to the lift in the hotel to the van that had just hit the water.
Yussaf was there on the river bank after they escaped the van.
The only 2 left behind were Cobb & Saito who were trapped in Limbo still.
It's implied in the opening flashback scene & when it's replayed near the end that Saito recognised they were in a dream & shot them both to bring them back.
That's why they woke on the plane last.

Thanks for the reply but it didn't really answer my question. What I'm wondering is why didn't the rest of them wake up when they hit the water? Shouldn't they have woken up once they hit the water?

I'm assuming it's due to the powerful sedative.

Rabidlamb

tok9 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply but it didn't really answer my question. What I'm wondering is why didn't the rest of them wake up when they hit the water? Shouldn't they have woken up once they hit the water?

I'm assuming it's due to the powerful sedative.

Now I'm with you, sorry.
Yep, they only kick back as far as level one where they have to wait for the sedative to wear off before they wake in reality back on the plane.
It's the same reason they didn't want to kill Saito on level 1 cause he was too heavily sedated to wake up & would have gone straight to limbo.

RolandIRL

it's also due to the fact that the kicks only bring you up to the level you get kicked on. if you're on level 2, and you're kicked on level 1, you just get brought up to level 1, not woken up

so when the van hit the water, adrianne and the others got kicked up to level 1 (having been kicked up to level 2 from the lower level kicks or dying in the lower levels when the sedative starting to wear off), but for cobb and saiko, the kick wasn't powerful enough to bring them out of limbo.

O_o, that sounds really complicated

Rabidlamb

The stimulus of falling coupled with the song "Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien" on level 1 initiates the kick.
That's why Yussaf engineered the sedative so as not to affect inner ear function.

Cherry.Blossom

Just watched the film for the first time last night. WOW. Me and my boyfriend have been discussing it and theorising it since!

I am inclined to think that at the end Leo is still in a dream due to the spinning top that keeps spinning.

Anyone remember in Blade runner - The unicorn dream? And at the end harrison ford picks up the little unicorn trinket and its ment to be a sign that he is actually a replicant and not a human? - The ending of Inception kind of reminded me of that.

But I feel like the idea that ford was actually a replicant added another layer to Blade Runner, whereas if Leo is still in a dream then it seems like a bit of a cop out to me. Purely due to the "it was all a dream" cliche.

PhiloCypher

Cherry.Blossom wrote: »

Just watched the film for the first time last night. WOW. Me and my boyfriend have been discussing it and theorising it since!

I am inclined to think that at the end Leo is still in a dream due to the spinning top that keeps spinning.

Anyone remember in Blade runner - The unicorn dream? And at the end harrison ford picks up the little unicorn trinket and its ment to be a sign that he is actually a replicant and not a human? - The ending of Inception kind of reminded me of that.

Yeh I made the same point earlier in the thread :

To equate it with another film with an ending open to interpetation ie. Bladerunner in that film we have two possiblities one where Deckard is a replicant and one where he isn't, if he is a replicant it is merely ironic that he ended up hunting his own kind down if he isn't we get into more interesting territory whereby Deckards cold efficiency is held in stark relief against the charismatic replicants who display more human qualities then Deckard displays throughout the film save for when he falls for Rachael( a replicant). That dichotomy for me is far more interesting then a simple he was hunting his own twist and that is why that, for me, is the real ending .

Cherry.Blossom wrote: »

But I feel like the idea that ford was actually a replicant added another layer to Blade Runner, whereas if Leo is still in a dream then it seems like a bit of a cop out to me. Purely due to the "it was all a dream" cliche.

Cobbs catharsis works for me dream or no dream, either it is reality and he gets to go home to his children or its a dream but having found closure with Mal and finally being able to let go of his guilt he can once again allow himself to see their childrens faces again.

Cherry.Blossom

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Yeh I made the same point earlier in the thread :

Cobbs catharsis works for me dream or no dream, either it is reality and he gets to go home to his children or its a dream but having found closure with Mal and finally being able to let go of his guilt he can once again allow himself to see their childrens faces again.

Ah right. Didnt read the whole thread, its miles long at this stage! Just after watching it it clicked with me about Blade Runner. Wonder was Nolan taking a few pointers from Ridley Scott..

PhiloCypher

Cherry.Blossom wrote: »

Ah right. Didnt read the whole thread, its miles long at this stage! Just after watching it it clicked with me about Blade Runner. Wonder was Nolan taking a few pointers from Ridley Scott..

No worries lol , I see you're only on 8 posts, joined just to talk about this ?

I did the exact same thing

Cherry.Blossom

PhiloCypher wrote: »

No worries lol , I see you're only on 8 posts, joined just to talk about this ?

I did the exact same thing

No I while back but just had a browse around without actually commenting on anything. Just saw the film last night and have been wracking my brains about it ever since so thought i'd pipe up!

LighterGuy

Anyone else think the music used in the film is amazing?

"dream within a dream" track is wow ... (yes i said wow :cool:)

Mike Litoris

LighterGuy wrote: »

Anyone else think the music used in the film is amazing?

"dream within a dream" track is wow ... (yes i said wow :cool:)

I actually found it very off putting a lot of the time. Only bad mark against the movie from me.

krudler

Mike Litoris wrote: »

I actually found it very off putting a lot of the time. Only bad mark against the movie from me.

what?! one of Zimmer's finest scores, the track Time is amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0kGAz6HYM8

Richard Dower

Saw this last night, excellent movie....but i found the concept very easy to understand, there are no deep thinking moments, you just have to concentrate and take it all in, acting was solid all round, bit Matrix like.

Richard Dower

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The "whole thing was a dream" argument doesn't float with me as it would nullify the relationship built with the characters.
It does however create the interesting slant that Mol was the only one to return to reality after she committed suicide.

No, I believe that Saito made good on his promise & Cobb is back in the US with his kids.
Nolan shot that final scene with a dreamlike perception to play with our minds.
Dressing the kids in the same clothes adds to the debate.
Yet the end credits say that the kids were played by different actors.

That's the direction i was HOPINg the movie would go!, i thought when Mol killed herself she went back to reality and everything that happened to Cobb in the movie was about him getting back to reality, i was hoping this was the case...i thought the end scene with the kids was the point where Mol would show up, thus proving it was all Cobb's dream...but she didn't so you have to accept it was the real reality.