2010 Dublin Marathon Improvers / Sub 3:30 Thread

RedB

This is a thread focusing on the runners who have probably run a marathon already and want to improve. It is geared at those with the 2010 Dublin City Marathon (DCM) in mind and intends to follow one of the 18 Week Schedules outlined in the Pfitzinger and Douglas (P&D) book Advanced Marathoning. The basic schedule starts at 33 miles per week and peaks at 55 miles per week.

It would help if you had a copy of the book yourself but I'll post up the 1st weeks plan so you can see what sort of training is involved and if it would suit you.

Weeks to Goal
17
Monday Rest or cross-training
Tuesday Lactate threshold 8M w/ 4M @ HM pace
Wednesday Rest or cross-training
Thursday General Aerobic 9M
Friday Rest or cross-training
Saturday Recovery 4M
Sunday Med-long run 12M
Weekly Vol 33M


Its 6 weeks now before that Schedule is due to start (21st June) so if you think you might be interested then jump in as soon as you like and let us know how your training is going, any intermediate races you plan on doing and any tips or advice you feel like passing along.

While the thread title mentions sub 3:30, there's no promises here that this thread will get you there......but it sure will help:)

menoscemo

Nice one Red, I will definately be popping in here. 33 miles is more or less a standard week for me at the moment so looks good. I am surprised there are only 4 runs though. Is that normal or does it increase to 5/6? Also a recovery 4 miles on saturday after a rest day
Also does this plan generally follow the 'tergat' 2 big workouts per week (i.e. a long run at the weekend and a big midweek tempo session like that 8m with 4 at hm?)
Either way count me in (though I may modify the programme). Where can I pick up that book?

nomadic

Count me in too. I'm not so sure how well i'll follow the program. I won't be marathon specific training until the end of July but sub 3.30 is the goal.

pgmcpq

3:30 is the goal for Dublin for me. Not sure if I will follow this plan... but very much appreciate the thread and am planning to order the book.

catweazle

Good luck with it Redb, I dont expect to be able to pull out a 3.30 in Dublin but I am taking an interest in the advanced schedule. I am interested in trying it more for the variety in the plan than going back to another session of 9/10 minute miles thats in the Intermediate plan

plodder

menoscemo wrote: »

Nice one Red, I will definately be popping in here. 33 miles is more or less a standard week for me at the moment so looks good. I am surprised there are only 4 runs though. Is that normal or does it increase to 5/6? Also a recovery 4 miles on saturday after a rest day
Also does this plan generally follow the 'tergat' 2 big workouts per week (i.e. a long run at the weekend and a big midweek tempo session like that 8m with 4 at hm?)
Either way count me in (though I may modify the programme). Where can I pick up that book?

It goes to 5 runs per week after about 3 weeks.

I'll be following this thread with interest too..

rainbow kirby

menoscemo wrote: »

Where can I pick up that book?

Saw it in Easons in O'Connell Street last week, it's just under a score. Amazon would probably be cheaper.

I'm far too slow for a sub-3:30 thread

misty floyd

£10.48 delivered from bookdepository.co.uk Thats a really good site actually, cheapest books around and an excellent service: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780736074605/Advanced-Marathoning

Best of luck with the goals and the log.

Oisin11178

Finally, badly needed thread. There is the novice thread and the sub 3 thread so there was a has there. Good luck lads, took me 3 goes to get sub 3.30:-)

TakeaBowSon

Great stuff....I'll be following this closely!

theboyblunder

Good idea lads. Will be dipping in to this. I trained to break 3:30 in my first marathon a few years ago and missed out by 50 sec.

I didnt have any structure to my training back then - If id followed the P&D id imagine I would have been comfortably under.

Good luck with the goals!

menoscemo

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'm far too slow for a sub-3:30 thread

Ah No, I am not really worried abou the sub 3.30 aspect, more the 'improvers' idea. i am sure you're welcome here and this plan would suit you.

RedB

menoscemo wrote: »

Ah No, I am not really worried abou the sub 3.30 aspect, more the 'improvers' idea. i am sure you're welcome here and this plan would suit you.

+1

Welcome to one and all. The thread is primarily intended for Improvers and, while it centres around the P&D schedule, it is open to anyone on any plan who is trying to improve. No doubt everyone will have to modify their own plans anyway when life starts throwing those curveballs at you but maybe here we'll figure out the best way of doing that. If some of the better runners want to drop us a few pearls of wisdom then this might be a place to do it. Or is someone spots a relevant thread or website then they could also mention it here.

For instance maybe this thread about PMP Workouts and Pace might be of interest at some stage - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055825141&page=4

If you're aiming for sub 3:30, well that's even better again. Let us know how its going, maybe what plan you're following or how you fit in your different sessions.

This is not a mentored thread but hopefully we can assemble a bit of a core group here to help us all to improve (and ideally get that sub 3:30 :cool:)

Krusty_Clown

I have followed the 24 week and 12 week 55mpw programs from the old book, and the 12 week 55mpw program from the new book with pretty solid results (3:25 -> 3:00 -> 2:55), so if I can answer any questions (on my experiences), I would be more than happy to do so.

Make sure you buy the new version of the book. Not a huge amount of difference, however, the programs have subtle differences (mostly around PMP runs).
ISBN978-0736074605

(old book was: ISBN9780736034319)

kennyb3

krusty i presume you are in work so going on them codes i reckon you keep that P& D book strapped to you at all times 'just in case':D

Krusty_Clown

kennyb3 wrote: »

krusty i presume you are in work so going on them codes i reckon you keep that P& D book strapped to you at all times 'just in case':D

LOl. No, I just checked on Amazon. We have d'internet in work too!

kennyb3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

LOl. No, I just checked on Amazon. We have d'internet in work too!

I believe you

pgmcpq

I've just ordered the P+D book. I've found it difficult to follow some of complicated plans - I prefer an outline plan with simple targets - so I am a bit fearful of this !

RedB wrote: »

Weeks to Goal 17

QUOTE=Krusty_Clown;65831064]I have followed the 24 week and 12 week 55mpw programs from the old book, and the 12 week 55mpw program from the new book with pretty solid results (3:25 -> 3:00 -> 2:55)[/QUOTE]

Quick question : What is the difference between the 24, 17 and 12 week programs mentioned. Is it simply a quicker "ramp up" ? I just started sketching out a plan for Dublin a few days ago ( based on an amalgam of a few plans and my schedule - re reading Fitzgeralds "Brain Training for Runners" which I was thinking of using this time around ) and realized that this is actually week1 of a 24 week program .... ! I peaked at 60 miles and 6 days a week for my last effort - 55 and 5 seems a bit low. Was looking at pushing to 70 with more PMP miles....

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I'm far too slow for a sub-3:30 thread

Dunno if sub 3:30 is on the cards for me either ( confidence took a bit of a battering recently !) Hopefully this thread will have a few wannbes like myself !!

RedB

pgmcpq wrote: »

Dunno if sub 3:30 is on the cards for me either ( confidence took a bit of a battering recently !) Hopefully this thread will have a few wannbes like myself !!

Welcome to Wannabe Central

pgmcpq wrote: »

I've just ordered the P+D book. I've found it difficult to follow some of complicated plans - I prefer an outline plan with simple targets - so I am a bit fearful of this !

The P+D book spends a good bit of itself explaining the background to its schedules and then gives different detailed schedules depending on how many miles you intend doing a week. The idea is to minimise the 'junk' miles and train as effectively and efficiently as practical. It tells you why to trust it and then tells you what to do. It is an outline plan with simple targets .

pgmcpq wrote: »

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have followed the 24 week and 12 week 55mpw programs from the old book, and the 12 week 55mpw program from the new book with pretty solid results (3:25 -> 3:00 -> 2:55)

Quick question : What is the difference between the 24, 17 and 12 week programs mentioned. Is it simply a quicker "ramp up" ? I just started sketching out a plan for Dublin a few days ago ( based on an amalgam of a few plans and my schedule - re reading Fitzgeralds "Brain Training for Runners" which I was thinking of using this time around ) and realized that this is actually week1 of a 24 week program .... ! I peaked at 60 miles and 6 days a week for my last effort - 55 and 5 seems a bit low. Was looking at pushing to 70 with more PMP miles....

'17 weeks to go' is just the countdown method they use for the 18 week programme. There are also 12 week schedules in the book for those short on time and maybe people will be interested in them in July/August but we've got the time to follow the 18 week schedule so that's what I posted. The earlier edition of the book that Krusty refers to must have had 24 week schedules instead of 18 or it included a 6 week base training period?
The P+D book also includes schedules for the 70M bracket that you're interested in so we can include that schedule as well in the log if you want.

Krusty_Clown

Yes, exactly. The older version of the book includes 24 week schedules, for those who want to make a significant commitment. It's a complete 24 week schedule, no base building phase.

The 12 week program isn't just for those who have less time available, but also for those who don't want to commit to an 18 week program and may not need the same endurance stimulus (it includes only 2x20 miles, instead of 3x20 in the 18 week program (but I would do a 20, 21, and 22 mile LSR)). I have 19 weeks to my goal marathon (Berlin), but instead of starting the 18 week program next week, I'm going to follow a 10k program with lots of hill work for the next few weeks and then launch into the 12 week 55 or 70 mpw program. I tend not to have problems with endurance, so will focus on increasing speed instead.

But that's all irrelevant. This thread is about the 18 week program.

I peaked at 60 miles and 6 days a week for my last effort - 55 and 5 seems a bit low.

To state the obvious, the difference between 55 miles over 5 days and 60 miles in 6 days is simply an additional 5 mile recovery run, so similar mileage to what you would be used to. You can of course add whatever mileage you want to on top of the existing program.

--amadeus--

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Saw it in Easons in O'Connell Street last week, it's just under a score. Amazon would probably be cheaper.

I'm far too slow for a sub-3:30 thread

pgmcpq wrote: »

Dunno if sub 3:30 is on the cards for me either ( confidence took a bit of a battering recently !) Hopefully this thread will have a few wannbes like myself !!

The only thing I know for a fact is that of you are confident you won't hit a target then you def won't. A bit of positivity goes a long way and there are lots (and lots) of people on here who went from 4:20, 4:30 marathons to sub 3:30 and faster. If they can then you can.

"If you think you can, or you can't... you're right!" Henry Ford

paulmcd1973

Good to see a thread like this. Did my first DCM last year, 3:43, following Hal Higdon's beginner program along with much appreciated advice from all on the site here. Was running along with Krusty and Village Runner (pacers for the 3:30 group) for the first half, but they ditched me in Orwell. Definite plan is sub 3:30 this year, how far below 3:30 remains to be seen.

Effin Runner

Ye are some feckers! There I was happy enough to do my second DCM in 3.40 and then ye start this thread! As Oscar Wilde once said, " I can resist everything except temptation".Count me in!

plodder

RedB wrote: »

Welcome to Wannabe Central

+1. I'm looking to go 23 minutes faster than my previous best time. :pac:

cphowlin

Hoping to hit sub 3:30 in DCM too. Did Limerick a few weeks ago and was on for hitting sub 3:30 but faded badly in the last 4 miles. Finished in 3:36 in the end. Gotta work on those last few miles!!

Hoping to follow P&D too. Want to do the 18 week plan but will be away climbing Mont Blanc for what would be the second and third week so will probably end up on some mix of the 12 and 18 week plan.

RedB

Not sure how this is going to pan out but I shamelessly lifted the following table from another thread for inspiration and then adapted it :rolleyes:. I suppose the idea is that we just log our training for now (either as we do it or at the end of the week) and maybe have a column for our individual 'Weekly Target' (e.g. 33M, 55M, 70M)? Its easy to edit the table when there's only a few names on it but the numbers will probably increase in time. What do people think?

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||


If you want to throw your name in then work away or if you just want to post the odd query or read the thread, then that's fine too.

pgmcpq

RedB wrote: »

The P+D book also includes schedules for the 70M bracket that you're interested in so we can include that schedule as well in the log if you want.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

But that's all irrelevant. This thread is about the 18 week program.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to muddy the water. All will be clear once the book arrives.

RedB wrote: »

Its easy to edit the table when there's only a few names on it but the numbers will probably increase in time. What do people think?

Looks good to me.

Scampwolf

Did DCM09 in 3:51 so planned to have a go at 3:30 fo 2010. Have being training for Cork just to have something to aim for, and hope to get sub 4, than few weeks rest than back into training for Dublin. Avg 35 mpw last 8 weeks, Is this a silly idea, should I give Cork a miss ?
Great to have this thread , not very good at reading the books

Krusty_Clown

Scampwolf wrote: »

Did DCM09 in 3:51 so planned to have a go at 3:30 fo 2010. Have being training for Cork just to have something to aim for, and hope to get sub 4

Why would you aspire to run slower in Cork? Has your training not been as good as it was for DCM09? Would you not aim to improve slightly, like 3:45 in Cork?

Scampwolf

True, This is my third Cork and I find it harder than Dublin, Maybe its the smaller crowd, lack of pacing group or heat. Last year was too hot and was hell for last few miles, Time was 4:23, Secretly I think that sub 3:50 would be on, thanks for calling my hand, I'm just worried I could stuff up Dublin which I have targeted as my shot at qualifying for Boston 2011 as a 45 yo A dream I had since a teenager when my dad ran it at 45, Family tradition and all that!

Krusty_Clown

Scampwolf wrote: »

True, This is my third Cork and I find it harder than Dublin, Maybe its the smaller crowd, lack of pacing group or heat. Last year was too hot and was hell for last few miles, Time was 4:23, Secretly I think that sub 3:50 would be on, thanks for calling my hand, I'm just worried I could stuff up Dublin which I have targeted as my shot at qualifying for Boston 2011 as a 45 yo A dream I had since a teenager when my dad ran it at 45, Family tradition and all that!

Nice one. A great goal to have. I hope to run it in 2012. There are pacers this year in Cork, so it might be worth your while tucking in with the 3:45 guys and seeing how it goes.

Woddle

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||



Great idea redb, I'll join yous for this, the more the merrier, I've organised a small group for Sunday long runs, they probably won't start for a few more weeks but yous would be all welcome, myself and menoscemo will hopefully stick together for longer intervals in marlay (I hope) so again all welcome.
I've ran 3'37 but that was back in 08 and since then I've watched alot of friends go faster, I'm in pretty poor shape but I'm up for the challenge.
Oh and DM is 24 weeks from this week so I've already started Pfitzinger 24 weeks 55 miles.

paulmcd1973

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||


And add me to the list also. I'm going to get the P&D book and try to follow their 18 week guide.

BrokenMan

I have a quick question and this seems the best place to ask. I have no marathon experience but have a couple of halfs and 10 milers under the belt. Would the P& D book be too advanced for a first marathon. Planning on running DCM and aiming for something in the 3:3x range. Have a half best of 1:46 in Connemara and a 10 mile best of 1:15.

--amadeus--

BrokenMan wrote: »

I have a quick question and this seems the best place to ask. I have no marathon experience but have a couple of halfs and 10 milers under the belt. Would the P& D book be too advanced for a first marathon. Planning on running DCM and aiming for something in the 3:3x range. Have a half best of 1:46 in Connemara and a 10 mile best of 1:15.

It really depends on your training background. The P&D plans are fairly mileage heavy and have some tough speedwork in them. If your background training in halves included 30+ miles and a speedwork session per week then by all means go for P&D, if not then maybe an Intermediate Higdon plan?

BrokenMan

Thansk --amadeus-- trainig for Connemara peaked at around 35 and was runnign tempo or intervals each week. Think I will buy the book and have a read and decide between it and a Higdon Intermediate. Might even look at mixing them up a bit.

jb-ski

misty floyd wrote: »

£10.48 delivered from bookdepository.co.uk Thats a really good site actually, cheapest books around and an excellent service: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780736074605/Advanced-Marathoning

Best of luck with the goals and the log.

thanks for tip, misty.
i just ordered book now.

i'll be following this thread also, so here's to DCM sub 3.30 (or Better:))

Krusty_Clown

BrokenMan wrote: »

Thansk --amadeus-- trainig for Connemara peaked at around 35 and was runnign tempo or intervals each week. Think I will buy the book and have a read and decide between it and a Higdon Intermediate. Might even look at mixing them up a bit.

I was going to reply with exactly what Amadeus said. What you peaked at for Connemara isn't terribly useful, what's more relevant is what you have done since then. You would need to be running 30-35 miles per week regularly before starting one of these plans, so you would want to be building up your mileage to that level now, in order to hit the ground running on the 21st June.

For my first marathon, I, like you, did the Connemara half, and moved straight onto the marathon track, following a hybrid training plan (HalHigdon intermediate II and makey-uppey), which served me very well. I don't think I would have been capable of following a P&D advanced marathoning training plan. But as you said, the book is a great investment, even if you don't follow the plan (this time) and describes the essential elements of a training plan. There's no reason you can't structure a plan for yourself using elements from both P&D and HH. Good luck!

BrokenMan

Thansk Krusty. Current mileage is mid 20's so would have to ramp it up smartish to get there. It's possible but would probably be a step too far this time around. I will definitely get the book and have a good read through it but will probably follow the Higdon Intermediate II primarily.

RacoonQueen

If I run Dublin I just want to beat Woddle. :pac:

RedB

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||

Woddle

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If I run Dublin I just want to beat Woddle. :pac:

Fightin words they are , I appreciate your reverse psychology, your really just trying to get me to get out and train.

Woddle

RedB wrote: »

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||

How are we defining sessions redb, as if you've done 4 in the first week your probably going to injure yourself.

Also would it be worth adding an extra 2 columns for long runs (15 miles or more) and for medium long runs (10-14.99 miles)

Woddle

I think if we had columns for VO2 max, lactate threshold, medium long run, long run and easy/recovery runs we cound then look at the results after the marathon and say well this is why woddle didn't get sub 3-30, he didn't do enough long runs and this is why krusty did go sub 3-30 he followed it to the letter, just an idea and we're sharing alot more vauable information.

RacoonQueen

Woddle wrote: »

Fightin words they are , I appreciate your reverse psychology, your really just trying to get me to get out and train.

It's good to have something to aim for. Even with your lack of training you're probably already ahead of me. Keep me motivated if I have someone to watch and compete with. :pac:

shels4ever

Woddle wrote: »

why woddle didn't get sub 3-30, he didn't do enough long runs .

Well you have to be banned from talking like this now . I've a plan i'm following now, but only printing week by week off, no big count downs either i think they just put pressure on you .
Your well capable of going sub 3:30 with a couple of months good running.

menoscemo

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Even with your lack of training you're probably already ahead of me.

Hmmm have you seen this man recently? :D:pac:

menoscemo

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|6|35|35| no long run. 5 mile race 34:15|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||


Bit disappointed with race time. a Good 35 mile week otherwise.

nomadic

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|6|35|35| no long run. 5 mile race 34:15|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|4|19|-|All short runs,5k race pb of sorts 21.12|

plodder

Woddle wrote: »

How are we defining sessions redb, as if you've done 4 in the first week your probably going to injure yourself.

I'd guess sessions just means runs in this case. I've only recently begun to realise that's not what it normally means. So, what are sessions (normally)?

On the question of how much detail to record in the table, it's hard to know. But, personally, I think a summary like what's there now is ok. If most people are trying to follow the P&D plan, maybe it's not necessary to repeat all the detail. Of course, whether people actually stick to it, is another question :pac:

Maybe just use the comments field for indicating where you've gone off the plan. Or add a link to your own training log, if people want to see more detail.

plodder

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|6|35|35| no long run. 5 mile race 34:15|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|4|19|-|All short runs,5k race pb of sorts 21.12|
Plodder|5|34|36|Wanted to do an 8 miler instead of 6 on Tuesday. No time though.