VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

hellboy99

This is going back to September of 2002:

The European Court of Justice has ruled that aspects of vehicle registration tax constitute a form of double taxation and are therefore illegal under the EU treaty.
The ruling came after a Finnish citizen took a case against his own government.
He claimed that by levying vehicle registration tax on a used car he had imported into Finland, the government was taxing the same product twice, because the tax ignored the value of the tax already paid on the car in another member state.
The court ruled that the VRT law in Finland conflicts with the EU treaty, and is illegal. The ruling may affect the operation of VRT in Ireland, which also charges high rates of VRT.
The European Commission two weeks ago called for the abolition of vehicle registration tax.
The Commission said in the interim, states should ensure that their VRT systems did not discriminate by imposing a double taxation burden on motorists importing second hand cars from other member states.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/0919/vrt.html

Michael Ring, Fine Gael TD for Mayo made the following statement in a Dáil debate back in 2004:

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2004-02-17.338.0&s=vrt#g362.0

Drivers in this country must be the softest people in the world to put up with the taxation and abuse we get from the Government. When one purchases a car one must pay VRT. We were told that on joining the European Union we would be able to import cars from elsewhere in Europe without paying VRT. The Government quickly got a derogation from this when it found it was losing tax revenue. This was wrong.

Quite some time back on the Green Party’s website, under its policy on the economy section it had a statement on VRT to the effect that the Green Party would abolish motor tax or VRT on a phased basis. The Commission on Taxation report, commissioned by the Government in 2009 recommended its abolition over a phased period of ten years.

Esel

hellboy99 wrote: »

Quite some time back on the Green Party’s website, under its policy on the economy section it had a statement on VRT to the effect that the Green Party would abolish motor tax or VRT on a phased basis.

Maybe the CO2 rating system was their Phase 1 then? We should have voted them back in! :eek:

hellboy99 wrote: »

The Commission on Taxation report, commissioned by the Government in 2009 recommended its abolition over a phased period of ten years.

There are a stack of different Commission Reports sitting on shelves gathering dust. Don't hold your breath on that count.

sollar

Looks like the government may have to face the EU courts over the issue of VRT.


http://www.donegaldaily.com/2011/06/30/major-victory-for-anti-vrt-campaigners-in-donegal/

sollar

OSI wrote: »

This can't be a good thing, the government will only look to other areas to make up the shortfall in VRT if this happens. And by other areas, read Motor Tax.

If they try to claw it all back on that people wil be paying about a grand per car in motor tax.

Robbo

Ah good old Ryan Stewart and his Ladybird book on European Law.

I see he reckons it's quite rare that the Commission initiates proceedings against a Member State. I suggest he picks up a copy of Craig & de Burca's book on European Law, opens the case index and notes how many of them begin with Commission -v- France, Italy etc.

challengemaster

sollar wrote: »

If they try to claw it all back on that people wil be paying about a grand per car in motor tax.

Anyone with any sort of "high litre" car is already paying that much...

robtri

challengemaster wrote: »

Anyone with any sort of "high litre" car is already paying that much...

so just imagine how they will be paying if VRt was abolished...



Also to note ... if you think the car industry was badly hit witht eh recession..this would devastate it..

Matt Simis

robtri wrote: »

Also to note ... if you think the car industry was badly hit witht eh recession..this would devastate it..

Only the used car sales portion and only temporally. VRT is a band aid thats got to be pulled off, better do it now than when we are in a boom and VRT is worth a lot more.

I was in the VRT office twice before they closed down and moved to NCTS. Grand total of 3 people there; a doorman, a staffer and me. Empty seats = 50. VRT has already died in monetary terms.


There is also the long standing counterpoint that no VRT = more car sales as cars get cheaper. More sales, more tax (VAT, fuel, aftersales service etc). While its not a sure bet, it is a definite possible outcome.

sollar

Its an unfair tax and the country will just have to adjust if its abolished.

We're not flavour of the month with the EU re taxes these days anyway!!

-Chris-

sollar wrote: »

Looks like the government may have to face the EU courts over the issue of VRT.


http://www.donegaldaily.com/2011/06/30/major-victory-for-anti-vrt-campaigners-in-donegal/

Over what issue? This'll only affect a very small number of drivers.

More of Ryan/Donegal's self-interested VRT whinging.

Cookie_Monster

why is it only against Ireland, do Denmark not have an extremely similar VRT. The EC not taking a case against them also under the circumstances?

R P McMurphy

I wonder would the assurances given during Lisbon 2 in relation to Ireland's ability to dictate its own tax affairs also relate to VRT

mondeo

Nice move, so I could live in the south and drive a northern reg car down here legally if Ireland looses?

Eleganza

Good luck on that. Mailed the E.U. Commission looking for feedback on my 15 month old complaint regarding VRT OMSP cut-off at €2000.
E.U. repsond to say they'll reply when they reply.
Don't expect the E.U. to protect the interests of the Irish Citizen.

robtri

Matt Simis wrote: »

Only the used car sales portion and only temporally. VRT is a band aid thats got to be pulled off, better do it now than when we are in a boom and VRT is worth a lot more.
.

if it has to come off, better to do it slowly i think...

yes it will only effect the used car portion of the market but every dealer has used cars and the write down on the stock would be immense.....
especailly for the premium market stock...

iirc the VRT on a a new 320d is around the €6k mark....

if this goes, the used car price will drop by around €5k for one or two year old cars .... having 20 of these types or similiar priced cars on your lot will be a drop in asset value of €100,000 ....
some of the larger premium marquee dealers can have up to 100 cars at a similiar value....not sure if many would survive with such a loss

turbodiesel

Sure they'll only get fined a small percentage of what they take in......like water off a ducks back to revenue.....

Owen

Matt Simis wrote: »

better do it now than when we are in a boom

We're in a boom

Matt Simis

PaintDoctor wrote: »

We're in a boom

I said "than when we are in a boom"?!?
When this was raised 4years ago the amount VRT brought in was staggering and to replace it would have represent largish increases on some other tax. To replace it today will be much "cheaper" as VRT itself is a fraction of what it was.

EPM

Abolition of this has to be gradual. So many dealerships are teethering on the edge right now that having a massive devaluation of stock (again) would surely see a lot go under. Not to mention the amount of people that still have huge car finance out on cars falling into (even more) negative equity over night.

mcwhirter

Will I get the 3600 euros back I paid then?, fooking crooks!!!!

It BeeMee

I fail to see where the case is on a person's movement between countries.

There is nothing stopping a ROI license holder driving a ROI registered car up North, or a NI license holder driving a NI registered car down South.

Or am I missing something?

m.j.w

It BeeMee wrote: »

I fail to see where the case is on a person's movement between countries.

There is nothing stopping a ROI license holder driving a ROI registered car up North, or a NI license holder driving a NI registered car down South.

Or am I missing something?

It doesnt matter what licence you have, its to do with were you are a resident

creedp

m.j.w wrote: »

It doesnt matter what licence you have, its to do with were you are a resident

Actually its more to do with what you can get away with in persuading the Revenue that your main residence is still up North and are just live here temporarily. The amount if NI and UK registered machiney all around the country is extraordinary. I've noticed a Citroen C8 with an 08 UK plate parking in North City Centre for nearly 2 years now. It carries kids to school every day yet still goes around with a UK plate displaying a UK tax disc so no Irish tax and no VRT. Makes you feel like a fool if you import a car and run to VRT centre with you VRT payment doesn't it?

Zubeneschamali

creedp wrote: »

Makes you feel like a fool if you import a car and run to VRT centre with you VRT payment doesn't it?

Well, no.

Some kids snuck into our house onetime and stole a camera and phone, and got away with it. That doesn't make me want to steal other people's stuff, though, and it doesn't make me feel foolish for being honest.

pa990

if VRT is abolished, it'll just be replaced with some other form of motor related tax.

the state needs income,
income comes in the form of taxation
tax isnt gonna go away.
we'll be forever paying VRT in one form or another

Guy:Incognito

Eleganza wrote: »

Good luck on that. Mailed the E.U. Commission looking for feedback on my 15 month old complaint regarding VRT OMSP cut-off at €2000.
E.U. repsond to say they'll reply when they reply.
Don't expect the E.U. to protect the interests of the Irish Citizen.

The reply wont help you at all , should it ever come. I can tell you that already.

The fact the the OMSP has a floor of €2000 is irrelevant. Its a number put there to make the books balance and whther they put €1 in that box or €1000 wont change anything.

The minimum rate for a 36% car is €720. €720 is 36% of €2000. So just so the figures are easy, the €2000 is applied accross the board. If they put the real OMSP of say €1100 in the box, the minimum VRT figure of €720 would still be what you pay.

SO in summary, that €2000 figure means feck all in reality.

NIMAN

Re: Mr Stewart.

Never really liked him.

He started the campaign cos all the people who moved into RoI from NI for cheaper houses, no rates etc couldn't be bothered to change their car over to an Irish plate, even though it was free if you were taking up residence in the South.

They all kept their Northern addresses for their car insurance, their bank accounts, their credit cards, their doctors, kept their children in NI schools etc. Then however when Customs got to them they all got up in arms and started moaning that they were being victimised. They knew the rules but chose to ignore them. They wanted the advantages of living in RoI but none of the cons.

Mr Stewart and his supporters were constantly on the airwaves crying. Never did I hear them answer the question as to why they did not change their car over to a Southern plate free of charge?

As someone who made the move too, and who has paid VRT twice since my arrival in the State, I don't like it either, but its the law of the country. I accept it. I watched many people I know up here dodge down back lanes avoiding the Customs checkpoints. They said they would never pay.

Mr Stewart got many followers, mostly from the new generation of Facebookers. I think he had 10,000+ 'friends'. He staged a protest once outside a Customs office in Donegal and asked as many people as possible to come out and show their support. I think around 50 of his 10,000 friends showed up.

He ran in the last General Election, and got one of the lowest vote counts in history, 203 votes. From a guy who had 10,000+ supporters.

Obviously when it came to the crunch no-one had any confidence in him.

Having said that, most of those were probably Northerners still registered to vote in NI !!

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

better do it now than when we are in a boom and VRT is worth a lot more.

Indeed. If you ever want to get rid of it, now's the time. Sales are only half of what they were during the boom years. And typical VRT is now only 14-16% compared to 25-30% before the switch in '08

VRT revenue in the boom was over €2 billion - now it's only about a quarter of that...

Once they're doing that, they might as well scrap motor tax (many people aren't paying it at the mo) and increase excise on fuel (no way to avoid paying tax when it's on fuel)...

n97 mini

I think switching to a CO2 based system did more damage to VRT than the bust.

Getting rid of it is fine... But how long will it be till the thousands of Civil Servants involved in it retire -- and even then they're still on the payroll? Last time I was in a VRO the ignorant cnut of a young one that was handling my case was only about 25, unwashed, and hung-over.

Mr Stewart. Donegal's answer to Michael Healy Rae, except he didn't get elected.

Eleganza

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The reply wont help you at all , should it ever come. I can tell you that already.

The fact the the OMSP has a floor of €2000 is irrelevant. Its a number put there to make the books balance and whther they put €1 in that box or €1000 wont change anything.

The minimum rate for a 36% car is €720. €720 is 36% of €2000. So just so the figures are easy, the €2000 is applied accross the board. If they put the real OMSP of say €1100 in the box, the minimum VRT figure of €720 would still be what you pay.

SO in summary, that €2000 figure means feck all in reality.

€2000 means a hell of a lot when the car is only worth 1000 on open market and you have to pay 720 euro to register it your car imported from another country. It automatically makes importing a car uneconomic and is a barrier to trade.
chipping away at VRT bit by bit will make the tax too difficult to operate and will hasten it's abolition.
Here is the infringement procedure from EU for Malta which I based my complaint upon. A breach of competiton rules is a breach regardless of whether it is for 10 euro or 2000 euro.
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/08/511&format=HTML&aged=0&language=en&guiLanguage=en

The way you make your pronouncement, it's almost like you know something about VRT.