VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

-Chris-

As long as you can prove you still own them, then you shouldn't have any issues.

johnos1984

-Chris- wrote: »

As long as you can prove you still own them, then you shouldn't have any issues.

The Passat is my own car but I've sold the Marina as another car I was waiting to go up for sale went on the market.

The next one I hope to keep though.

If I don't will they bother with it? I'm hardly bringing in truck loads of them

-Chris-

johnos1984 wrote: »

The Passat is my own car but I've sold the Marina as another car I was waiting to go up for sale went on the market.

The next one I hope to keep though.

If I don't will they bother with it? I'm hardly bringing in truck loads of them

I'm not sure of the exact number of cars you have to import and sell before they start considering you a trader. It's not a lot (something small like 3 or 6 a year).

If they see a pattern of you importing cars and then selling them at a profit, they'll ask you to declare the profit as income and pay tax on it.

whippet

johnos1984 wrote: »

Quick question:

I asked in the classics section but got no definitive answer.

How many cars can one import per year before they run into trouble with revenue?

I'm not trading but I have brought in a Passat last Nov, a classic in June and possibly another one in July.

a few transactions might raise a flag with revenue but once it's obvious it isn't part of an organised trading operation they will leave you well alone.

My father in law brought in four cars in one year and did get a call to ask him were why he was importing the cars .. he just told them that he still owns three and sold one as he replaced it with another.

Eleganza

-Chris- wrote: »

But the current way of doing it is the fairest.

Two identical cars, one in the UK, one in Ireland.
The one in Ireland has €5,000 of VRT in its price.
If you import the one from the UK, you should pay the same VRT as the one in Ireland.

This system caters for that.

Well that's completely wrong.
Government can only legally apply so much VRT as to make the imported car from another E.U country as expensive as a locally sourced identical car and they don't do that and the VRT valuation system isn't fit to do it.
The VRT system doesn't take account of open market price elsewhere in the E.U. and compensate so that the importer doesn't overpay vis-a-vis a locally sourced car.
If they tried to write the software to do that it would end up costing more to develop than the failed PPARS system and still wouldn't work.
Revenue constructed VRT as an Ad Valorem tax purely so that they could charge what ever they want without reference to purchase price. If it was based on purchase price then the registration tax take would shrink as buyers source cheaper cars overseas. But an Ad Valorem tax which makes importing a product from within the E.U. more expensive than sourcing locally is contrary to competition law; catch 22. This is certain but the E.U. don't appear to want to move on it as they don't want to act against our regime's sovereignty in the area of taxation policy leaving the Citizens of E.U. who happen to live in Ireland crucified by our local oppressors. Without sovereignty in the area of taxation policy the E.U. would disintegrate as local ruling regimes step back from the Union so the E.U. commission don't push on this topic as it threatens their own existence.

It BeeMee

Eleganza wrote: »

Well that's completely wrong.
Government can only legally apply so much VRT as to make the imported car from another E.U country as expensive as a locally sourced identical car and they don't do that and the VRT valuation system isn't fit to do it.

But the only place they fail on this is on cars with a market value of less than €2,000 : the Malta case you quoted was specifically about imposing a minimum tax, same as Ireland does.

Eleganza wrote: »

The VRT system doesn't take account of open market price elsewhere in the E.U. and compensate so that the importer doesn't overpay vis-a-vis a locally sourced car.

Why should they? Cars cost different amounts in different countries, so where should the comparison begin and end?

BTW I was speaking to a Dutch colleague of mine recently who got a new company car: a Renault Megane that cost in the region of €30,000!!! His previous car was a 1.9TDi Audi A3 that cost over 40k. Should revenue take that market into account?

Eleganza wrote: »

If it was based on purchase price then the registration tax take would shrink as buyers source cheaper cars overseas.

You mean buyers would claim they bought it cheaper.

Eleganza wrote: »

But an Ad Valorem tax which makes importing a product from within the E.U. more expensive than sourcing locally is contrary to competition law; catch 22.

Again, the only area where it may be more expensive is on cars with an Irish market value of less that 2k. Above that value, it appears they are ok.

Eleganza

I give up on ye. Ye have no grasp of the topic. No wonder the Revenue Commissioners have got away with screwing the Irish motoring public for VRT over the last 20 years.
Half of you are masochists who feel you deserve to be screwed for VRT and the rest of you are too dim to understand exactly how you are being screwed.
I can't be civil to ye. If I talk in any simpler terms I'll be accused of being condescending. No need to ban me this time. I'm gone.
And I am actually gone. I left Ireland and am beyond the reach of this regime and leave behind citizens who are now referred to in internal DoF documents as tax units. That's what ye are; tax units, not people.

Jimdagym

Eleganza wrote: »

I give up on ye. Ye have no grasp of the topic. No wonder the Revenue Commissioners have got away with screwing the Irish motoring public for VRT over the last 20 years.
Half of you are masochists who feel you deserve to be screwed for VRT and the rest of you are too dim to understand exactly how you are being screwed.
I can't be civil to ye. If I talk in any simpler terms I'll be accused of being condescending. No need to ban me this time. I'm gone.
And I am actually gone. I left Ireland and am beyond the reach of this regime and leave behind citizens who are now referred to in internal DoF documents as tax units. That's what ye are; tax units, not people.

Cheerio.

Grimreaper666

It's hard to believe how people are still putting up with this VRT crap, it's totally unjust and it's even gotten worse lately but then again when you see how the banks were bailed out without as much as a protest is it any wonder we're being screwed left, right and centre.

mcwhirter

-Chris- wrote: »

Well then don't buy a car that attracts €720 VRT and high motor tax...

hey, moderator, thats the minimum you pay at 36% which most older cars are. Thats what I was stating, no need to get cocky, now thats a warning;)

-Chris-

Eleganza wrote: »

I give up on ye. Ye have no grasp of the topic. <blah blah>
No need to ban me this time. I'm gone.
<blah blah>

Bye!

mcwhirter wrote: »

hey, moderator, thats the minimum you pay at 36% which most older cars are. Thats what I was stating, no need to get cocky, now thats a warning;)

I'm not sure what you mean?

I'm not sure under what circumstances someone would be forced into buying a car with €720 VRT and high Motor Tax when it's outside their budget.

sollar

Eleganza wrote: »

No wonder the Revenue Commissioners have got away with screwing the Irish motoring public for VRT over the last 20 years.
Half of you are masochists who feel you deserve to be screwed for VRT and the rest of you are too dim to understand exactly how you are being screwed.

Sadly there is an element of truth in that and i'd add the cohort who say the law is the law..... never to be questioned.

-Chris-

sollar wrote: »

Sadly there is an element of truth in that and i'd add the cohort who say the law is the law..... never to be questioned.

And what about those who say the system is being applied incorrectly and needs revision, but who feel that a wholesale removal of VRT would cause as many problems as it solves?

Are we masochists or dim, or some combination of the two? Nevermind, don't answer that - instead please reply with opinion rather than insults if you can...

sollar

-Chris- wrote: »

And what about those who say the system is being applied incorrectly and needs revision.

Revised in what way? Most countries in the EU don't have a VRT system. They seem to work just fine. The problem is that we have used it for so long now people can't imagine what would happen if it was removed.... i understand its hard to envision exactly how it would pan out. There may be a few bumpy years but overall it would do no harm for us to do as the rest of europe does.

We have a tenancy on this country to just go along with whatever hair brained scheme the government can dream up and kick up little fuss..... just look at what has happened with the banks and the guarantee.

-Chris-

sollar wrote: »

Revised in what way? Most countries in the EU don't have a VRT system. They seem to work just fine. The problem is that we have used it for so long now people can't imagine what would happen if it was removed.... i understand its hard to envision exactly how it would pan out. There may be a few bumpy years but overall it would do no harm for us to do as the rest of europe does.

We have a tenancy on this country to just go along with whatever hair brained scheme the government can dream up and kick up little fuss..... just look at what has happened with the banks and the guarantee.

The OMSPs need to be revised, the method of valuing non-mainstream cars needs to be revised, the way the NCTS administers the system needs to be revised...

Many can imagine what will happen without VRT, we just don't all agree.

I'm not getting into the banks, that's a whole other can of worms :P

dr.fuzzenstein

sollar wrote: »

We have a tenancy on this country to just go along with whatever hair brained scheme the government can dream up and kick up little fuss..... just look at what has happened with the banks and the guarantee.

I dare say yes to that.
The Irish abroad are portrayed as rebels who kicked out the English and will take no sh*t from anyone, mess with us and we'll get you!
In reality people here are the most docile and easily led in Europe, it took the people over ten years to kick out a government of obviously corrupt and criminal cronies and only after they ruined the country.
The idea is to keep quiet, don't make a fuss, draw no attention to oneself, plough you own little furrow and don't rock the boat.
The French are the other side of the extreme, there'd be burning barricades along the way, it doesn't always help, but it's better than to say "I'm sure all those big and clever people in government know better than me and who am I to question them? Surely I can't possibly understand the genius of their policies, so I better keep quiet and the head down".
Anyone says "the law's the law and it must be upheld regardless" does not understand democracy.
The law is the law for now, but if people work together and form a coherent movement that puts pressure on the right people, it might be something alltogether different tomorrow.
The main thing about VRT is that VAT is applied on top of it.
Anyone who doesn't see that as crazy had better get out of the country and live somewhere else for a few years to see other things than only this little green field.
The main problem is that the country is run by people who never had to leave because they knew the right people, their mammy took them for an interview after school and that's what they've done since. They have no idea of anywhere else and never will have.
This is especially painful for those of us who have been abroad, who have seen how things are done in the civilised world and to watch the carry on here.
Also, VRT exists because direct taxation is just stupidly low here.
In Germany you will never see at least half of your income, but for that you will be given services such as roads, schools and hospitals.
Taxes should be on income, that way everybody pays their way at the source and people won't be punished for spending their money.
The way it goes here is the other way round. Make as much as you can and get it out of the country.

hellboy99

EC starts legal action to exempt cross-border drivers from VRT:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ec-starts-legal-action-to-exempt-cross-border-drivers-from-vrt-511284.html

Cuddlesworth

hellboy99 wrote: »

EC starts legal action to exempt cross-border drivers from VRT:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ec-starts-legal-action-to-exempt-cross-border-drivers-from-vrt-511284.html

Lol. Just lol. But if it gets your hopes up then I don't want to let you down hard. There is a slight chance* that it will go nowhere.





















*100%

drunkmonkey

hellboy99 wrote: »

EC starts legal action to exempt cross-border drivers from VRT:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ec-starts-legal-action-to-exempt-cross-border-drivers-from-vrt-511284.html

Why is it only cross border drivers, what makes donegal so special, scrap it for everybody and be done with it. It's wholesale theft on all Irish drivers.

hellboy99

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Lol. Just lol. But if it gets your hopes up then I don't want to let you down hard. There is a slight chance* that it will go nowhere.

It may go nowhere as you say but isn't trying better than doing nothing, at least some people are trying to get something done.

hellboy99

drunkmonkey wrote: »

scrap it for everybody and be done with it. It's wholesale theft on all Irish drivers.

It would be nice to see it gone but as some say what new tax will take it's place. But I will say this and this been said based on my brothers case, the system needs to be looked into and aspects of it changed.

There is something wrong and rotten within Revenue when you are told VRT of €5900 on a shell, then only to be told you cannot VRT a shell. Then that same day to be told the VRT is now €15,000+ and they are valuing your car at €40,000+ when that same car has a current Irish OMSP of €10,000 - €18,000. Now Revenue will not tell him the VRT or the OMSP :mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

hellboy99 wrote: »

It would be nice to see it gone but as some say what new tax will take it's place. But I will say this and this been said based on my brothers case, the system needs to be looked into and aspects of it changed.

There is something wrong and rotten within Revenue when you are told VRT of €5900 on a shell, then only to be told you cannot VRT a shell. Then that same day to be told the VRT is now €15,000+ and they are valuing your car at €40,000+ when that same car has a current Irish OMSP of €10,000 - €18,000. Now Revenue will not tell him the VRT or the OMSP :mad:

I think it's the Irish system.
Put anything in place and tailor it to importing main stream cars.
As soon as anyone has anything that isn't a Toyota Corolla, panic, out of ideas, completely lost, give any answer that comes to mind and start the whole pillar to post thing.
The strategy is to get the pleb to either pay up silly money or give in and buy something sensible, like a Toyota Corolla, like everybody else, why would you want something other than everyone else?
Ireland is not tailored to minority tastes, what 90% of the people want is got to be good enough for everyone and if you want something else, tough.
The whole approach starts from half arsed planning, to half arsed legislation to half arsed enforcement.
As Bertie said "Don't upset the apple tart!"

Esel

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The main thing about VRT is that VAT is applied on top of it.

Eh...... no. VAT is applied before VRT. But wait....

The main thing about VRT is that is calculated backwards.

Firstly, there is the dealer price. Let's say €10,000.

Add VAT @ 21%, that makes €12,100.

Let us say that the VRT rate on the vehicle in question is 36%.

You might think that the final selling price (including VRT) would be €12,100 * 1.36 = €16,456 - right? Wrong.

VRT is expressed as a percentage of the final selling price, aka Open Market Selling Price (OMSP).

So, if the price before VRT is €12,100, this means that this amount €12,100 is taken to be 64% (i.e. 100% - 36%) of the OMSP! Stay with me here.

To calculate the OMSP, divide €12,100 by 64, and multiply by 100.... (or simply divide by 0.64 - it's quicker, and gives the same result) €18,906.

So, Hey Presto!, you will pay almost €2,500 more than you might have thought.

__________________________________________

If importing from a third country (outside the EU), you will have to bleed a bit more through the nose.

Duty will be charged on (the purchase price + cost of shipping + cost of insurance).

Then VAT on the total of the above.

Then VRT.....

R.O.R

Esel wrote: »

Eh...... no. VAT is applied before VRT. But wait....

The main thing about VRT is that is calculated backwards.

Firstly, there is the dealer price. Let's say €10,000.

Add VAT @ 21%, that makes €12,100.

Let us say that the VRT rate on the vehicle in question is 36%.

You might think that the final selling price (including VRT) would be €12,100 * 1.36 = €16,456 - right? Wrong.

VRT is expressed as a percentage of the final selling price, aka Open Market Selling Price (OMSP).

So, if the price before VRT is €12,100, this means that this amount €12,100 is taken to be 64% (i.e. 100% - 36%) of the OMSP! Stay with me here.

To calculate the OMSP, divide €12,100 by 64, and multiply by 100.... (or simply divide by 0.64 - it's quicker, and gives the same result) €18,906.

So, Hey Presto!, you will pay almost €2,500 more than you might have thought.

Thank you for pointing out that VAT isn't applied to VRT - it's one of the biggest mis-conceptions out there.

I just wanted to point out that you'd missed a small step from the calculation process.

The OMSP, which VRT is worked out from, is a % of the retail price of the car. With a lot of manufacturer's it's 92% of the retail price of the car, but it's not always 92%, so that makes it even harder to work out the actual VRT amount that's being paid.

NIMAN

ryanstewart wrote: »

Do you know me by any chance NIMAN?
1) Not 'free' - only if you qualify for transfer of residence
2) I've also paid VRT several times, just because you pay it you don't have to like it, in the same way that the public sector is up in arms on pension levies, the public don't want water charges, universal social charge etc. Should everyone bend over and take tax after tax being thrown at us, or do we stand up and be counted. Last time I checked, everyone was entitled to their opinion!
3) Protest did it's job, got us a meeting with top brass in Customs, who were completely in the dark about what was going on - has lead to a reduced Customs presence, and more account taken of their own rules, which had been completely disregarded, and an open line to them if there are any serious problems, which they do address.
4) This is not about 'northerners' as you put it, it affects everyone in the state.

I have an admission from the Dept of Finance of price-fixing, where vehicles are being moved to slower depreciation rates, which means the end result is the valuation on a vehicle being way above what would normally be found on an Irish forecourt. It's double-taxation as the VRT is calculated on a value where VRT is already included in the price. Car prices pre-tax are cheaper in the state, NI dealers purchase cars pre-tax in th estate for export, and then they are sold back to us with VRT and VAT applied, and at a profit to dealers in the north, how is this equitable?

The system is completely corrupt, and this is a massive result - we have got through the initial stages, this is real action the EC are taking- they are not waiting for an opinion etc, it has already been concluded, and they agree with the context of the petition I have put forward. The Irish Drivers Assoc had their own motion on VRT rejected at preliminary stages last week. The EC do not take measures like this lightly, and I think it's about time the naysayers took a bite of humble pie at this stage.

No Ryan I do not know you personally, but I have followed the whole VRT debate closely over recent years since I moved into the State.

I apologise if my post came across as a personal attack on yourself. I have re-read it and it does to be fair. I appreciate your reply and all the info contained within.

My main argument re: the VRT issue is with those who did qualify under the change of residence rule, but who simply refused to change over their car as they wanted to use their Southern address basically as a bedsit, while maintaining 95% of their life in the North. I know many many people who bought houses in the South when they were cheaper than the North, and who could not point out often enough how much cheaper their mortgage was, how they had no rates to pay, how they still could send their children to Northern schools etc. However when the **** hit the fan and the Customs started hounding them, they all cried foul. Often I listened to radio discussions re: VRT and I never heard any of the anti-VRT folk answer the question about getting it free with change of residence. All these 'blow-ins' wanted the perks but none of the drawbacks. For me, as someone who knew the pitfalls of moving South, I paid what I had to, whether most considered it legal or illegal.

I followed the Facebook page too for many months but had to stop reading it as it seemed to be populated by idiots, but hey, that's not your fault.

I know quite a few people caught by Customs and made to pay fines, and to be honest I don't have much sympathy for them.

As for the recent developments, OK so 'progress' may well be made with the latest annoucement, and I would love to be able to buy a car in RoI as cheaply as I could buy it in NI, but if the Gov lose this revenue stream, then they will simply tax something else, so imho its only a false gain.

michellie

-Chris- wrote: »

The OMSPs need to be revised, the method of valuing non-mainstream cars needs to be revised, the way the NCTS administers the system needs to be revised...

The Nct work through the revenue system, nothing else. What part of it do you think needs to be revised ?

-Chris-

michellie wrote: »

The Nct work through the revenue system, nothing else. What part of it do you think needs to be revised ?

-NCTS need to inspect the car
-NCTS collect the VRT amount
-NCTS don't decide on the value and can't be appealed with
-Revenue decide on the OMSP, but are hiding behind the NCTS
-You have to pay the stupidly inflated VRT amount, based on an incorrect OMSP to NCTS, and then try and claw it back through the Revenue by appealing the OMSP (a backwards and unfair process, though largely successful)
-You can't get a nailed-down realistic VRT amount until the car is in the country (i.e. after you've bought it, and probably had to appeal the VRT amount), but if you're not happy with the VRT amount it's already too late because you own the car and it's in the country


So, I think the NCTS needs to either be taken out of the equation, or needs to be empowered to take on a lot more of these responsibilities.
As it is, it's a system set up to let people fall between two stools, or be bounced from pillar to post. It's ridiculously opaque and complicated.

Guy:Incognito

-Chris- wrote: »

-
-You have to pay the stupidly inflated VRT amount, .

Your buying the wrong cars, stop rocking the boat.

Older French stuff on the cheap is the way forward.:)

ergoviewing

Hi guys i just got a quote from the NCTS which was €300 more expensive than the revenue website. Are their charges for this which there should not be. How can i appeal by using the printout I recieved for the website. €300 seems more like an admin charge than anything else.

Thanks in advance

John

BronsonTB

ergoviewing wrote: »

Hi guys i just got a quote from the NCTS which was €300 more expensive than the revenue website. Are their charges for this which there should not be. How can i appeal by using the printout I recieved for the website. €300 seems more like an admin charge than anything else.

Thanks in advance

John

The revenue website is ONLY a guide (And an out of date one as that too) it is NOT the amount of VRT due on your car. Only the NCT centre can now give you a price when you present it to them for registering. Revenue do not deal with the public any more on VRT. Has to go through the NCT centre & they decide how much you pay. Model spec etc all come into play when working out how much VRT required. You can appeal but at only 300 difference from the revenue site would seem the NCT centre is not far off the mark in this case.