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VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

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24567…29

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  • Options
    #32
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    ligertigon wrote: »
    Not true

    no really, it is true, I don't care!


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    #33
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    squod wrote: »
    Plenty of countries don't.



    Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

    They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.

    You said we were different. We're not, we're the same as many others.

    No money is being doled out to manufacturers other than what customers are choosing to give them when buying cars.

    The government however are making more through the vat and vrt that is being brought it.


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    #34
    RoundyMooney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    Bertie (him of the accounting acumen) was asked before election '07, to replace vrt with something else, and with all his hubris, even he said it was a non runner.

    Do they really think it will happen now?

    Just because the customs have finally decided there are actually 26 counties in Ireland, is no reason for these people to try and get an exemption for themselves.


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    #35
    ligertigon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ligertigon


    Absurdum wrote: »
    no really, it is true, I don't care!

    vrt is payable on date of enquiry.

    And can change.

    So, enquire today, buy today, go to vrt tomorrow, and its a totally different amount.

    You don't care?


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    #36
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    squod wrote: »

    Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.

    Doling out money to foreign... Good god.

    Do you know how many cars are manufactured here in Ireland every day? I'm going to hazard a guess, and say none. (I know thats not strictly true, what with hobbiests and rally cars, BUT you know what I mean.)

    Anything that gets people spending is generally a good thing, as what we pay on cars goes towards paying

    Wages
    VAT
    Overheads
    Rent

    Etc etc. These need to be paid, and not defaulted on.


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    #37
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    ligertigon wrote: »
    vrt is payable on date of enquiry.

    And can change.

    So, enquire today, buy today, go to vrt tomorrow, and its a totally different amount.

    You don't care?


    you're making the assumption that I'm buying


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    #38
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Absurdum wrote: »
    Who sells, services, markets, etc. those foreign cars?

    Generally someone other than main dealers, as they don't like "foreign" cars. :pac:


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    #39
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Stekelly wrote: »
    You said we were different. We're not, we're the same as many others.

    We are different, as you've just confirmed. Not every country has VRT. Not even most of them.
    Stekelly wrote: »

    No money is being doled out to manufacturers other than what customers are choosing to give them when buying cars.

    So then it is being doled out.
    Stekelly wrote: »
    The government however are making more through the vat and vrt that is being brought it.

    You're view is that the government should directly interfere with the market? The foreign manufacturer is making more revenue through the governments interference. We're in a recession, we should be doing what we can for our own primary sectors.


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    #40
    ligertigon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ligertigon


    Absurdum wrote: »
    you're making the assumption that I'm buying


    I made no assumption other than your wrong


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    #41
    mp3kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭mp3kid


    ligertigon wrote: »

    4 days later, a 07:45am sting outside my house as I went to work.

    why did they not camp outside a working class housing estate?

    You work = you're working class.


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    #42
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    ligertigon wrote: »
    I made no assumption other than your wrong

    ok :rolleyes:


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    #43
    ligertigon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ligertigon


    mp3kid wrote: »
    You work = you're working class.

    I really wanted to say" This car is powered by the dole"

    lol


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    #44
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    RoundyMooney wrote: »
    Bertie (him of the accounting acumen)
    :eek: Are you serious?

    Bertie wasn't even able to count the money he stuffed under the mattress.


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    #45
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Stekelly wrote: »
    If you get a chance to dig that out I could use it eoin , cheers.

    Here you go:

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/536/536456/536456en.pdf
    'A.- The facts.
    The petitioner considers that it hinders the free movement of goods across the EU that taxes for the acquisition of vehicles differ according to countries. She further alleges double taxation in Portugal, given that where a car is bought in this country, VAT plus a special tax, the Vehicle Registration Tax
    (VRT) have to be paid. This VRT has to be paid also if a car bought abroad is imported into Portugal.
    B. - Legal analysis.
    1. It must be said, from the outset, that the VRT is a registration tax in force in Portugal and that, at the present stage of Community Law, Member States have the right to levy such registration taxes on cars.
    There is no harmonization on this matter and this means that, provided they respect the basic principles of Community legislation, Member States remain free to apply this kind of tax to motor cars
    PE 346.807 2/2 CM\536456EN.doc
    EN
    on the occasion of their first entry into use within their territory and to settle the tax rates at the level they see fit. The majority of Member States (ten Member States, Portugal being one of them) in fact apply those taxes.

    Nobody I've asked has been able to provide a newer link from a reputable source that contradicts the above.


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    #46
    It BeeMee
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭It BeeMee


    squod wrote: »
    Doling out money to foreign manufacturers isn't cool in a recession, however they want to put it. The whole VRT argument from the government has to be seen with some perspective is about all I'm saying.
    The consumer is giving the money to the manufacturers, not the government.
    The foreign manufacturer is making more revenue through the governments interference. We're in a recession, we should be doing what we can for our own primary sectors.
    So the government should dissuade people from sending their money abroad by... oh I don't know, taxing what they're buying, perhaps?
    squod wrote: »
    They can choose to reduce VRT (rebate you've mentioned) or provide incentives to foreign manufacturers, as a way of controlling the market.
    Control the market?


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    #47
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    ligertigon wrote: »
    He did make one valid point.
    Cost of collection is most likely more than revenue received.
    While I agree with the principle of VRT you are correct to point out that it is a far from perfect system.

    It's also true that if the cost of running the country was reduced then VRT could also be reduced.

    Which leads me on to Donegal. My understanding is that the cost of running that county in wages to teachers, gardaí, nurses, the co council etc, is more than Donegal takes in from outside the county through tourism, manufacturing etc, and that the county is being subsidised by the likes of Dublin.

    There is an element of cake-and-eating-it when counties that are taking more out of the pot than what they are putting in are looking for a discount on the amount they do put in.


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    #48
    ligertigon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ligertigon


    JHMEG

    Good point on pointing out the issue of "picking on a region"


    Its like the reverse of " not in my back yard"

    mohahaha, p.s. just an observation, not a response


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    #49
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,874 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    ligertigon wrote: »
    He did make one valid point.
    Cost of collection is most likely more than revenue received.

    Let me give a personal example.

    I bought a 95 car on northern plates.
    went into vrt office to vrt.
    they said €700 as there was no CO2 figure, so applied max.
    I used a mpg to CO2 calculator, = €300 vrt.
    Bamboozeled official never saw this before (despite its a revenue publication), he said no its €700 but will need to look into it.

    4 days later, a 07:45am sting outside my house as I went to work.
    I past 3 cars, and stopped for 4th.... customs....
    Threatened about fine etc, and told them how THERE side was holding things up.

    Result: 4 days later vrt office call to say Toyota Ireland has advised them that the mpg I supplied was correct, thus €300 vrt which I paid.

    Please advise me the cost of wages etc for the mornings €300 takings.(which, remember, I contacted them first)

    And regards posts about it being tax evasion/legal, why did they not camp outside a working class housing estate? Answer? the people they stop could not afford to pay the fine, so they don't bother. QED


    That's one old car out of thousands that are registered every year. Most cars can be done in the office in the space of a few minutes and get the government thousands of Euro for a few minutes work.

    The only way it's costing extra money for collection is to pay all the Customs people to stand at the side of a road stopping people who refuse to pay.

    Theanswers wrote: »

    Alas the group also highlights the heavy handed tactics of Customs officers, Harassing people from the north who visit our country, which happens to support our local economy. Attempting to seize their cars, how is this a good representation of our country?

    Maybe if so many people from the region weren't avoiding paying the VRT the customs wouldn't need to be so heavy handed.


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    #50
    ligertigon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭ligertigon


    Del2005 wrote: »
    That's one old car out of thousands that are registered every year. Most cars can be done in the office in the space of a few minutes and get the government thousands of Euro for a few minutes work.

    The only way it's costing extra money for collection is to pay all the Customs people to stand at the side of a road stopping people who refuse to pay.




    Maybe if so many people from the region weren't avoiding paying the VRT the customs wouldn't need to be so heavy handed.

    The revenue rattle the sabre on those who on paper can pay, not those that might pay.

    Government policy: pick on the easy targets. or haven't you realised yet?
    That is of course, your part of it.


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    #51
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    squod wrote: »
    So then it is being doled out.

    At the moment, if you buy a new car in Ireland, probably a third of the money goes to the government and two thirds go to the foreign manufacturer or their local representatives.

    If you abolish VRT and car sales remain the same, the exact same amount of money will go to the foreign manufacturer and their local representatives, but the government will get nothing.

    It seems like your plan is to send a greater proportion of our car sales money abroad than we currently do, and retain as little as possible of it here.


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    #52
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    -Chris- wrote: »
    At the moment, if you buy a new car in Ireland, probably a third of the money goes to the government and two thirds go to the foreign manufacturer .....
    It seems like your plan is to send a greater proportion of our car sales money abroad than we currently do, and retain as little as possible of it here.

    Chris, you're forgetting VAT. Currently it's possible for the govt to get up to 36% VRT plus 21% VAT.


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    #53
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Fair point, but it won't change the equation - in a like-for-like market, a larger proportion of the money we spend on new cars will go overseas if we abolish VRT.
    I think Squod's wrong on several counts.

    I don't necessarily agree with VRT, but I see it's function and I can see the bedlam and financial hardship it would cause if you removed it tomorrow.


  • Options
    #54
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    After much pressing to try get links to prove VRT is illegal and Ireland is being fined, the most I can get from the group is stuff that shows a case thrown out because due process was'nt followed when seizing a car, but nothing to do with legality of VRT.

    I did however get one ridiculous reply "what does it matter if its true or not stephen the point is they are pulling people out of cars and treating them like ****". So apparently the title of the group doesnt have to be true. It may as well be a facebook group run by the sun. The best they coul dmuster after that was a chilish reply about me using "no" instead of "know" once when replying from my iphone. Funnily enough the guy had no punctuation in his replies, bu did'nt seem to see the irony.


    Between that and the spelling mistakes in the letters they sent to the councillors this has all the hallmarks of something that will bring in real change in our country.:)

    They seem to be totally focusing on the supposed illegality of taking someones car under the treaty of Rome in the hope people forget about the actual title and VRT. To me it just seems the people of Donegal want to shore up he law so that the authorities can't take their cars off them and they are free to drive foreign reg'd cars and not have to pay taxes and nothing to do with some moral quest for justice. Dragging in thousands of gullible fools to blindly follow without know anything about what they are followng seems the easy bit.


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    #55
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    -Chris- wrote: »
    At the moment, if you buy a new car in Ireland, probably a third of the money goes to the government and two thirds go to the foreign manufacturer or their local representatives.

    If you abolish VRT and car sales remain the same, the exact same amount of money will go to the foreign manufacturer and their local representatives, but the government will get nothing.

    I'll take you up on that. We're being told that VRT is a legal and legitimate tax, so we have to pay it.
    The government scrappage scheme is a ''legitimate'' way of controling the Irish market while providing direct subsidy to the foreign manufacturer (primary sector workers). There are many other ways of re-couping this revenue other than VRT.

    Providing direct subsidy for the primary sector of foreign economies is all wrong, while we are in a recession. It's a long way off from what should be done to fix this economy.

    -Chris- wrote: »
    It seems like your plan is to send a greater proportion of our car sales money abroad than we currently do, and retain as little as possible of it here.

    My plan is to stop supporting foreign industry when we should be looking after our own primary sector.


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    #56
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    squod wrote: »
    I'll take you up on that. We're being told that VRT is a legal and legitimate tax, so we have to pay it.

    Correct.
    squod wrote: »
    The government scrappage scheme is a ''legitimate'' way of controling the Irish market while providing direct subsidy to the foreign manufacturer (primary sector workers).

    VRT controls or influences the Irish market in line with the government's objectives. At the moment that's collecting revenue while at the same time being eco-friendly.
    The change in the VRT system in 2008 has been spectacularly successful in influencing new car buyers to buy lower-CO2 cars. Unfortunately the way it was implemented, and the timing of that was less successful and has reduced the VRT take.

    I don't understand how the government is providing a direct subsidy to a foreign manufacturer, can you please elaborate?

    squod wrote: »
    There are many other ways of re-couping this revenue other than VRT.

    VRT gave €1.4bn to the government coffers in 2007 and €1.1bn in 2008. I can't find the figure for 2009, but let's pretend it's €1bn.

    Please briefly explain exactly where you intend to recoup €1bn worth of revenue that the government will lose if they abolish VRT. What are the other ways of recouping this revenue?

    squod wrote: »
    Providing direct subsidy for the primary sector of foreign economies is all wrong, while we are in a recession. It's a long way off from what should be done to fix this economy.

    Again, what are the direct subsidies that we're giving to the foreign economies?

    squod wrote: »
    My plan is to stop supporting foreign industry when we should be looking after our own primary sector.

    VRT is spent on us (maybe inefficiently, but that's one for the politics forum). The scrappage scheme creates a VRT reduction that encourages people to buy cars and create work/jobs for people in the motor industry and the finance institutions who fund these purchases. These people then pay taxes and provide employment in other sectors through their purchases.

    The scrappage scheme promotes economic activity within Ireland, and provides no subsidy to any foreign industry. Whether VRT is 1,000% or VRT is abolished, BMW Germany still sell a 5-Series to BMW Ireland for the same price.


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    #57
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    HAs anyone any links to the VRT take per year? I cant find it.

    EDIT, just saw Chris's post above. Any sign of a 2009 figure.


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    #58
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    I don't see them online, but the registration figures are here:
    http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=TEA01.asp&TableName=Motor+Vehicles+Licensed+for+the+First+Time&StatisticalProduct=DB_TE


    Based on this I'd probably reduce my VRT guess for 2009 from €1bn to maybe less than €500m.
    So we're already €900m down on 2007, trying to find that revenue elsewhere, before we ban VRT altogether...


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    #59
    Charlie.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Charlie.


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Which leads me on to Donegal. My understanding is that the cost of running that county in wages to teachers, gardaí, nurses, the co council etc, is more than Donegal takes in from outside the county through tourism, manufacturing etc, and that the county is being subsidised by the likes of Dublin.

    There is an element of cake-and-eating-it when counties that are taking more out of the pot than what they are putting in are looking for a discount on the amount they do put in.

    Yeah because it's only people from Donegal who drive UK reg cars and don't pay their VRT.
    And for course everyone who sets up a business/works in Dublin has grew up and been educated in Dublin:rolleyes:


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    #60
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Fair point, but it won't change the equation - in a like-for-like market, a larger proportion of the money we spend on new cars will go overseas if we abolish VRT.
    With due respect that's trade union economics. The amount paid to manufacturers stays the same.
    -Chris- wrote: »
    I don't necessarily agree with VRT, but I see it's function and I can see the bedlam and financial hardship it would cause if you removed it tomorrow.
    I don't either, but the tax has to come from somewhere. I'd also be happy if there were continuous efforts at reducing the cost of running the country. The Celtic Tiger years resulted in a massive giveaway, which we now can't afford...


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    #61
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Charlie. wrote: »
    Yeah because it's only people from Donegal who drive UK reg cars and don't pay their VRT.
    Non-compliance with VRT is (naturally) a bigger issue the closer to the border. The facebook campaign is based in Donegal.
    Charlie. wrote: »
    And for course everyone who sets up a business/works in Dublin has grew up and been educated in Dublin:rolleyes:
    What?


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