[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

karma_

Biggins wrote: »

When the many forces in WW2 saw an enemy, they opened fire.
Be the enemy walking towards them or not. That principle hasn't changed in war.
It might be right or wrong - but it hasn't changed.

This isn't exactly true either. Only about 15-20% of Combat troops during WW2 would fire at the enemy. This is why training has changed so dramatically in recent times, the military train you to kill, its brainwashing in fairness.

Gigiwagga

Osu wrote: »

Yo buddy, I'm half American....


Have two brothers in the USMC.


Don't appreciate that shite.


Yeah there are psycho's in the military, but don't paint everyone with the one brush.

Which half, buddy, top or bottom, who in their right mind would work in an organization full of psycho's. I don't have to paint them all with the one brush they perfectly able to do that themselves, and if your two brothers have a problem being associated with these murdering sobs, why are they in the military, to protect us from all these evil terrorists with their cameras and stuff. Please enlighten me.

Biggins

karma_ wrote: »

This isn't exactly true either. Only about 15-20% of Combat troops during WW2 would fire at the enemy. This is why training has changed so dramatically in recent times, the military train you to kill, its brainwashing in fairness.

You have an accurate point.
Not sure about percentages or how one would come about them though.
Training has changed (thankfully) but according to conditions/places/etc.
After that it's a single individual judgement call in real time and as we can see from the video, part of that days outcome was not good at all.

Voodu Child

Very disturbing video, I found the actions and commentary of the helicopter crew sickening. When told of the wounded child (a girl) one of them laughed 'Don't bring your kids to a firefight' or something to that effect.

The end of the video was shocking too. They were shooting missiles at a building with civilians right beside it. They thought they saw men with weapons enter the building, fair enough, maybe they did. But it takes them several minutes to get permission to fire, and they also fly around with their eyes off the building for ages to approach from another direction.

Anybody could have entered or left the area in the meantime, but they still fired a whole bunch of missiles at it, I think 3 in total. You can see one guy casually stolling in front of the building (34:40) - now remember this is several minutes later, so he has presumeably nothing to do with the 'terrorists' inside. He's strolling along, clearly unarmed, and they shoot a missile at the building and kill him. Disgraceful.

oneintotwo

You know what truly disgusts me about all of this? The spelling & grammar.

FlutterinBantam

info@williamrua wrote: »

Which half, buddy, top or bottom, who in their right mind would work in an organization full of psycho's. I don't have to paint them all with the one brush they perfectly able to do that themselves, and if your two brothers have a problem being associated with these murdering sobs, why are they in the military, to protect us from all these evil terrorists with their cameras and stuff. Please enlighten me.

Whoooah big boy... guess you have taken on a couple of bottles of 2% beer here.

Bar room soldiers are ten a penny hombre.


We don't need another one.

capice;)

Sheeps

info@williamrua wrote: »

Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
"Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

Skill lads.

I'm not condoning the violence. I think the pilots decission to shoot at the second target was utterly wrong. The reason you think I condone these attacks is because my responses to this thread largely have been aimed at correcting the people who formed an anti-American opinion on the incident before actually watching the video which makes me look pro-American. I think the decission to attack on the first group of targets was understandable and to some extent justifyable.

The references to Hitler, socialsim, bush, Obama and fascism were sarcastic to make fun of the anti-American frothing at the mouth Michael Moore fan boys.

Overheal

Okay folks,

hideous ape wrote: »

Probably because the Taliban is not the armed force of a country bound by international law, the Geneva convention or the UN. We expect better from a democratic society that we consider our friend...sometimes when your friend starts acting like a prick you have to tell him so.

Oh right: so we should just let the Taliban do whatever the hell they want then.

Next.

Ciaran500 wrote: »

There is 0 risk from to an apache from a RPG at that distance. The apache is no where near the group and the is no guidance on a RPG.

I must agree and in fact I question why they engaged rather than bugged. But if the objective is to eliminate insurgents, then eliminate insurgents. The Apache could have bugged out and what was later capitulated to still be an RPG Launcher would not have remained Active in the Field, only to be lobbed at Coalition troops in the line of duty at a later date. Whether that be a Hummer or a Minesweeper or another Helicopter left in a Vulnerable Position, a la Black Hawk Down.

Lets nevermind Camera Man as he will hence be knownst was crouching behind the side of a building and acting very suspiciously, trying to - at best - Sneak camera footage of the Longbow when they thought it wasnt looking. How exactly does that look from the Cockpit?

billy the squid wrote: »

MSNBC are blocking searches for the term "wikileaks"

sron wrote: »

No mention on CNN either. The US media disgraces itself again.

http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/search?q=wikileaks

But something to think about. Aye.

Sheeps wrote: »

As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there's a good chance that they didn't know the helicopters were there.

Not with yer lad crouching like a rocket-ninja by the street-corner there.

You also cant miss those big effing rotor noises. Not familiar with helicopters much? You can hear them from at least 1 mile.

Bonito wrote: »

TBH If they were ak47's maybe they were free lances hired to protect the Reuters emplyees incase they came in to contact with insurgents. As said earlier there was some shootings from a rooftop. Maybe this is why the camera had such a large lens? To see the roof top for photos?

Then, when the reporters heard gun fire they dived for the corner of the building for cover and the apache thought it was them firing at them.

Also a broken assumption. Because when the Apache went around for what became the Kill Pass, why didnt they run around the corner of the building again?

IMO the pricks just wanted to squeeze the trigger.

In your opinion.

karma_ wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this isn't collateral damage, or a tragic mistake, it's murder. There was no real attempt to identify the those people in the video as insurgents, and a little care could have identified there were no weapons. From the very start no one acted in a suspicious manner, and it was clear that there was no RPG present, trained military personnel, especially those who operate this technology should know the difference.

I maintain the Camera Man was acting very suspiciously.

I think these guys just wanted some action, they wanted to pull that trigger.

You think.

the sheer callousness when the operator was informed of the wounded child got me too. "oh well"

What can the Pilot do? Flip out in the cockpit? Have a big cry? Are Repo-Men evil or are they just doing their job when they show you no sympathy? We're talking about a knee-jerk comm response here. And yet, the current rate of Military Suicide - More US Soldiers take their own lives than the Taliban has taken theirs. And thousands more (over 30% of all veterans) Suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) If you want to theorize about their remorselessness.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/suic-j06.shtml

Can't wait to play this level in Modern Warfare 3.

Dry Humour, I am sure. But at least a game can give a player *some* idea of what being in a war zone feels like.

smurgen

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Whoooah big boy... guess you have taken on a couple of bottles of 2% beer here.

Bar room soldiers are ten a penny hombre.


We don't need another one.

capice;)

your input into this thread has been useless aswell so i'd wouldn't sound so smug if i was you

smurgen

Overheal wrote: »

Okay folks,

Oh right: so we should just let the Taliban do whatever the hell they want then.

Next.

no the point that was made went right over your head,he ment that we expect the u.s should not to stoop to the level the taliban does

Overheal

smurgen wrote: »

no the point that was made went right over your head,he ment that we expect the u.s should not to stoop to the level the taliban does

Well that leaves a rather large Dilled Pickle, Smurge. Insurgents don't operate by the Geneva Convention - how do you engage a target that assembles in Schools, Mosques, and Homes? Parades down the streets with Ak-47s and Children, and is hellbent on killing you?

I am not trying to defend it, just trying to provide Understanding and Comprehension.

Ciaran500

Overheal wrote: »

Lets nevermind Camera Man as he will hence be knownst was crouching behind the side of a building and acting very suspiciously, trying to - at best - Sneak camera footage of the Longbow when they thought it wasnt looking. How exactly does that look from the Cockpit?

As I said in politics, he had reason to be behind the wall. From reuters:

Overheal wrote: »

You also cant miss those big effing rotor noises. Not familiar with helicopters much? You can hear them from at least 1 mile

Cos' an apache is such an unusual sight in Baghdad green zone :rolleyes:

smurgen

Overheal wrote: »

yet, the current rate of Military Suicide - More US Soldiers take their own lives than the Taliban has taken theirs. And thousands more (over 30% of all veterans) Suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) If you want to theorize about their remorselessness.

.

yeah those damn callous innocent civilians! do they not think know that there dying is causing untold psychological damage to these poor soldiers?!

Zombienosh

I just watched the full video, there are no words to really describe it. Theres too many things wrong with it.

It is sadly though, no real surprise, I'm sure this is one of many incidents like this, only this has been leaked.

It's pretty sad aswell to see some peoples comments.

Dara Robinson

Come on sheeps, They fked up man. All that was needed was a little more investigation, 30 secs more and they would have figured out that there was innocents down there. I mean seconds before they start shooting you can clearly, and I mean clearly, see the 2 Reuters staff with their cameras. Even if you know nothing about cameras you can see small box shaped objects with long wide circular white things. Anyone who has been to a football match, seen a journalist on TV or in real life will know that its a camera.
I do not deny that there were 2 men down there with weapons cause there were. But I most certainly dispute the validity of their need to make such a quick decision without any recon or simply hanging on for 30 secs and observe properly before shooting. They got there, saw objects hanging from solders that could have been weapons (at the time it was the cameras initially that were identified) and said, ok we have targets, a few seconds later saw 2 guys up top of screen that clearly had actual weapons and decided that they were all in it together.

Something like 70-80% (before the invasion) of Iraqi citizens had weapons in their home from an article I read years and years ago (Plus my uncle studied there before the embargo and he told me similar stories) and a large proportion of them have access to rifles of some sort. One of the reasons why the US ground forces were so heavy handed with the Iraqi population on the ground is because they were advised of this and trained to deal with it.
And after they invaded Bagdad became a lawless town with locals holding sections by armed force for their own protections from gangs that were running wild out there. Again something the US Ground forces were aware of. So why was there no thought, time or effort put into the decision to request permission to engage? And above all else, why did the officer granting permission not ensure that some kind of work had been done to ensure no civilians were in the mix?
TBH it looked like a point and shoot at anything that moved kind of operation and it backs up some of the stories coming out of Bagdad at the time about civilian casualties. Its just a shame that the US, UN or anyone else will never do a proper investigation. Would be different if they were US Journalists I bet

Overheal

smurgen wrote: »

yeah those damn callous innocent civilians! do they not think know that there dying is causing untold psychological damage to these poor soldiers?!

Thank you for taking on board the substance of my post without having a roid-rage.

Ciaran500 wrote: »

As I said in politics, he had reason to be behind the wall. From reuters:


Cos' an apache is such an unusual sight in Baghdad green zone :rolleyes:

No its not, but you're in a Green Zone, not Disneyworld. You should conduct yourself accordingly.

Duggy747

Wow, that's pretty callous though not out of the ordinary from the usual Apache footage you get running the rounds on the web.

The Reuter crew knew the danger they were signing up for, especially going into a hot zone like that, they were wiped out with in less than 20 seconds.

If we watched the footage without any prior knowledge of what was revealed afterwards we would a different view on it, unfortunately.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for the US whose popularity is already below sea level.

Ciaran500 wrote:

There is 0 risk from to an apache from a RPG at that distance. The apache is no where near the group and the is no guidance on a RPG.

Well, not entirely true. Many times the insurgents release one rocket which in turns distracts the apache from another RPG attack at another angle. Natural response is to get the sucker before they even think of aiming.

Still, quite disgusting to see the casual response after they killed them though nothing new I guess in war.

jkforde

http://wikileaks.org/#Change_you_can_believe_in

let's get active & support the whistleblowers

and if on twitter spread the above link

Ciaran500

Overheal wrote: »

No its not, but you're in a Green Zone, not Disneyworld. You should conduct yourself accordingly.

He's a photographer who peaked around a corner with his camera at the aftermath of US group receiving small arms fire. Completely standard practice for any camera man in a war zone, I'd also suspect it has become common practice for the locals too. The US army cannot use this as an excuse to open fire on someone.

Gigiwagga

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Whoooah big boy... guess you have taken on a couple of bottles of 2% beer here.

Bar room soldiers are ten a penny hombre.


We don't need another one.

capice;)

Well yeah I'm real sorry man I didn't mean to step on your toes there man, like I mean you know right, you are the great informed one right, here's me falling over a glass of light beer, you's the man.
Tell me do you wear soiled vests a la Bruce Willis when you pose in front of the mirror with your extra strong ultra informed beer, let me see I'll try to picture you now,...nice. wow I could never be like you, what's it like being you hombre on yo hos there.
Get me some ice.

Overheal

Duggy747 wrote: »

Wow, that's pretty callous though not out of the ordinary from the usual Apache footage you get running the rounds on the web.

The Reuter crew knew the danger they were signing up for, especially going into a hot zone like that, they were wiped out with in less than 20 seconds.

If we watched the footage without any prior knowledge of what was revealed afterwards we would a different view on it, unfortunately.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for the US whose popularity is already below sea level.

Unless a Major News Organization reports it, this will remain in the dark for the wider population. MSNBC and CNN have already taken their position, regrettably.

The Reuter crew knew the danger they were signing up for, especially going into a hot zone like that, they were wiped out with in less than 20 seconds.

And thats the only other thing I can say: The Apache acted poorly; the Dispatch acted Poorly; and the Reuters crew acted poorly. 3 Strikes. Someone died. They all should have been better prepared for that scenario.

FlutterinBantam

info@williamrua wrote: »

Well yeah I'm real sorry man I didn't mean to step on your toes there man, like I mean you know right, you are the great informed one right, here's me falling over a glass of light beer, you's the man.
Tell me do you wear soiled vests a la Bruce Willis when you pose in front of the mirror with your extra strong ultra informed beer, let me see I'll try to picture you now,...nice. wow I could never be like you, what's it like being you hombre on yo hos there.
Get me some ice.

Not cuttin' it with that tired old cliched post, big boy.

jkforde

Unless a Major News Organization reports it, this will remain in the dark for the wider population. MSNBC and CNN have already taken their position, regrettably.

Huh? Social networks? Problem is that people are lazy and want to be fed their news but social viral stories do get into the corners so FB it, twit it, do whatever...

Dara Robinson

Overheal wrote: »

You also cant miss those big effing rotor noises. Not familiar with helicopters much? You can hear them from at least 1 mile.

Seeing as the Apache Helicopter can fire its M242's from up to 3km away I think your point is irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster

Overheal wrote: »

Also a broken assumption. Because when the Apache went around for what became the Kill Pass, why didnt they run around the corner of the building again?

Because they had no idea what was going to happen. This is why these aircraft specialise in attacking from great distances.
Its been bugging me so I did a little math. between the sound of firing and the bullets hitting the ground its between 2/2.5 secs. Given that the muzzle velocity os around 1100 meters per second ..... now you do the math
We are talking over 2k possibly 3k distance

Overheal wrote: »

In your opinion.
I maintain the Camera Man was acting very suspiciously.

Come on ffs, the guy does not know whats around the corner so he leans out and takes a few shots. And thats suspicious to you? Having not been in a War torn country myself I dont know but I assume I would not be walking around corners without checking them out first.

Overheal wrote: »

Unless a Major News Organization reports it, this will remain in the dark for the wider population. MSNBC and CNN have already taken their position, regrettably.

Reuters finally write an article on the leak
http://tinyurl.com/y9knhrm

Also

Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer hits the nail on the head in the interview. He says its a failure of training and discipline. I completely agree

Also its interesting to hear an American express the point of view that Glen Greenwald did. What effect are these images and events are having on the Muslim population and what will those children think of this event in 10-20 years time.
Great to hear it from an American, I hope more of them start thinking like that cause they are only making their future more unsafe not less.


And more here
http://tinyurl.com/y98u6dk

Seifer

Voodu Child wrote: »

Very disturbing video, I found the actions and commentary of the helicopter crew sickening. When told of the wounded child (a girl) one of them laughed 'Don't bring your kids to a firefight' or something to that effect.

It's funny the way people hear what they want to hear:

"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle" is what he says and there is no laughing. In my opinion he's justifying to himself as much to anyone else what he's done. He knows he's ****ed up.

The main issue in the video is the firing on the van that came to help. It's bizarre that they focus on the guy crawling and don't engage because he has no weapon but as soon as the van arrives they get agitated by the fact they're taking the bodies (and mention they're possibly trying to take the weapons too) but despite them getting no visual on them picking up or having any weapons they engage.

Gigiwagga

I probably act suspiciously a lot, I should have been taken out years ago. The video shows the US predator ruthlessly at work. Control and destroy.
Yeah work out the trajectory etc Like a raptor. I'm sure there are probably thousands of such instances, we wont see. America in all it's stark beauty, freer of men.
What a race we are, what a sad bunch of ***** we are.

Gordon

How come the youtube video only shows 359 views still?

Nick_oliveri

Seifer wrote: »

despite them getting no visual on them picking up or having any weapons they engage.

And anyone who thinks this does not happen unreported frequently is fooling themselves. Its just because journalists were killed that there is some uproar. I wonder what other acts of safety and prevention have we not seen against people who were just in their homes.

Dara Robinson

Ha, thats interesting. Both of them have between 300 and 360 each. I wonder if Youtube capped it to ensure it would not come up in most popular sections and recommendation sections
I was just looking at it, all the vids have been capped at either 0 views or very low, always less than 4-500. Even the MSNBC ones are at 32 and 81 views respectively. I dont think thats right tbh


Oh and just stumbled onto this, its info about what happened to the children who were wounded

smurgen

Seifer wrote: »

It's funny the way people hear what they want to hear:

"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle" is what he says .

well maby the americans shouldn't had made a war zone of their enitre country so to ensure the safety of these kids