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[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    Biggins wrote: »

    I'm sure myself that if anyone started to run away and wasn't carrying a weapon, they wouldn't shoot.


    Hell if that was the case, every innocent person running away from a potential sudden scene of a battle, would be gun cannon fodder and we'd be hearing about it hourly, not just daily!

    Do the US armed forces not kill people daily? Most are reported as civilians, and if this video is any example many more civilian deaths are probably filed under "insurgents".

    Why do you think they wouldn't shoot at anyone unarmed? They shot at the men who were holding something large and long (that was all I could make out anyway), the unarmed people who arrived to help the wounded. Have you never heard of Mai Lai? Make a point of watching Al-Jahzeera for 5 minutes a day and I promise within 2 weeks you'll see how silly your comment looks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,399 ✭✭✭Bonito


    Gordon wrote: »
    That's not correct, the gunship seems a long way away with a good zoom. Look and hear how long it takes the bullets to hit the targets to get an idea.

    Not quite sure why you are saying 'right underneath' when clearly the helicopter is at an angle, not directly overhead - hence the circling.
    Also, from the length of time it takes them to circle back around to bring them back in to view while they're behind the building would suggest they're at a lengthy distance.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Sheeps wrote: »
    Ugh, stop splitting hairs. The person who is saying that it "looks like" is a bloody soldier standing over the dead body. It's a confirmation of weapons.

    Also, my last post was making fun of your whole "it's a tripod" argument, I'm not saying the quality is not good enough to classify weapons.
    Originally Posted by Dara Robinson
    http://i40.tinypic.com/wb3zgn.jpg
    Dara seriously, read what it says in that text again! please. ie. 'looks like'

    The fact that the report says "looks like" does not confirm that it wasn't one.
    The place has just been blown the crap out of by many, many gun shells, each the size of ones hand alone.
    If there was anything there left in one piece anyway near the targets they were aiming for, I'd be very surprised.

    There is NO confirmation later either that it was not an RPG under the mans body. Just to be fair.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Biggins wrote: »
    The fact that the report says "looks like" does not confirm that it wasn't one.
    The place has just been blown the crap out of by many, many gun shells, each the size of ones hand alone.
    If there was anything there left in one piece anyway near the targets they were aiming for, I'd be very surprised.

    There is NO confirmation later either that it was not an RPG under the mans body. Just to be fair.

    fair enough Biggins, but since it was later established that it was 2 journalists who were killed, and what looked like an RPG in the video was in fact a camera can we not safely say there was no RPG found at the scene?

    I mean, if this was actually insurgents no one would be shouting, but teh fact that it is civilians, and not insurgents that creates the problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    Hitler killed a bunch of people too so we can safely deduce from this video that Hitler was literally flying the helicopter. From that we can deduce that because the attackers are Americans, that Obama too is literally Hitler and that the Jews were behind 9/11 which was probably the reason for these attacks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    sron wrote: »
    Do the US armed forces not kill people daily? Most are reported as civilians, and if this video is any example many more civilian deaths are probably filed under "insurgents".

    Why do you think they wouldn't shoot at anyone unarmed? They shot at the men who were holding something large and long (that was all I could make out anyway), the unarmed people who arrived to help the wounded. Have you never heard of Mai Lai? Make a point of watching Al-Jahzeera for 5 minutes a day and I promise within 2 weeks you'll see how silly your comment looks.

    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though - a HELL of a lot more daily! Why is that?
    "A' fcuk it. Lets just take this opportunity to gave a go at bashing Americans instead."

    You stick to your Al-Jahzeera. I'm sure they like many American stations, have their own version of events they way they want to see it and call it.
    I wonder why! :rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though - a HELL of a lot more daily! Why is that?

    I think it's because we tend to hold the American actions to a higher standard than that of the Taliban. We expect low brow from the Taliban, but not the Americans?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Biggins wrote: »
    You stick to your Al-Jahzeera. I'm sure they like many American stations, have their own version of events they way they want to see it and call it.
    I wonder why! :rolleyes:

    I like to check each of the stations story out sometimes to try and piece it together. France 24 and RT give some interesting slants also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though! Why is that?
    "A' fcuk it. Lets just take this opportunity to gave a go at bashing Americans instead."

    Probably because the Taliban is not the armed force of a country bound by international law, the Geneva convention or the UN. We expect better from a democratic society that we consider our friend...sometimes when your friend starts acting like a prick you have to tell him so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    karma_ wrote: »
    fair enough Biggins, but since it was later established that it was 2 journalists who were killed, and what looked like an RPG in the video was in fact a camera can we not safely say there was no RPG found at the scene?

    I mean, if this was actually insurgents no one would be shouting, but the fact that it is civilians, and not insurgents that creates the problem.

    I'm sadly sure that amid that mess was a camera and two camera men.
    However AFTER the shooting ended alone, it was assessed by a soldier (whom we can expect to by now have some experience in recognising equipment more so than the rest of us) that he was seeing also an RPG.

    For the men in the gunships, it was an on the spot judgement call.
    For the soldiers on the ground later it was a quick establishment of the scene and a very brief report back.
    Sadly, due to American military secrecy, we will probably never know the eventual assessment of the events as the whole incident info was amassed later.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    You have to see it from the gunners perspective aswell. They identify what appears to be a fairly large group of people holding what appears to be small arms and an RPG. Now the small arms won't down an apache helicopter but a well placed RPG could down the helicopter in 1 or 2 hits. Letting them go could have been very risky from their perspective.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    That doesn't fit in with karma_'s idea of events though...

    death 2 amerikkka allah akbar


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm sadly sure that amid that mess was a camera and two camera men.
    However AFTER the shooting ended alone, it was assessed by a soldier (whom we can expect to by now have some experience in recognising equipment more so than the rest of us) that he was seeing also an RPG.

    For the men in the gunships, it was an on the spot judgement call.
    For the soldiers on the ground later it was a quick establishment of the scene and a very brief report back.
    Sadly, due to American military secrecy, we will probably never know the eventual assessment of the events as the whole incident info was amassed later.

    If there was an RPG, the Pentagon would not keep it secret.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Sheeps wrote: »
    That doesn't fit in with karma_'s idea of events though...

    death 2 amerikkka allah akbar

    :eek:


    Surely time this poster got popped.?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    george bush and obama are literally communist liberal nazis


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    You have to see it from the gunners perspective aswell. They identify what appears to be a fairly large group of people holding what appears to be small arms and an RPG. Now the small arms won't down an apache helicopter but a well placed RPG could down the helicopter in 1 or 2 hits. Letting them go could have been very risky from their perspective.
    There is 0 risk from to an apache from a RPG at that distance. The apache is no where near the group and the is no guidance on a RPG.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    karma_ wrote: »
    I think it's because we tend to hold the American actions to a higher standard than that of the Taliban. We expect low brow from the Taliban, but not the Americans?

    Absolutely - no question.
    For the boys and the girls on the scene at real time, its an immediate judgement call.
    Look at what we actually saw and heard.
    We are told (I think) that there was some sort of arms fire shortly before.
    Two gunships searching, find 5/6 men with what looks like weapons.
    Those in the air give their assessment to base. Base says "open fire" - the rest is history.

    Sure we have to hold them to a higher standard - but that still don't take away from the fact that in real time - its a split second judgement call and nothing less.

    The outcome for two men in this case was unfortunate - not the first and last case in this war we can assume
    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    I like to check each of the stations story out sometimes to try and piece it together. France 24 and RT give some interesting slants also.

    Me too. I try to stay away from the main countries stations that have their own spin based on country and or religion relationship.
    Probably because the Taliban is not the armed force of a country bound by international law, the Geneva convention or the UN. We expect better from a democratic society that we consider our friend...sometimes when your friend starts acting like a prick you have to tell him so.

    No argument there. Its only by calling them on such actions can they be brought further to a higher standard.
    As per my tag line for months now... "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
    sron wrote: »
    If there was an RPG, the Pentagon would not keep it secret.
    Rubbish.
    Many, many times they have kept such things quiet for the sake of it being exposed that the weapons were actually American made sometimes alone.
    Propaganda-wise alone, they would shut-up about this - and thats just one possible reason amid many that we might not even think about.

    This was an incident MONTHS ago. What do you want EVERY RPG, EVERY WEAPON found in Iraq listed and reported in every news story on the tv!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    well if the weapons weren't confirmed why did they engage fire?why not be prudent and wait for confirmation?you cant "un-kill" someone. The yanks are trigger happy,especially the hired mercenaries like blackwater.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Biggins wrote: »
    The outcome for two men in this case was unfortunate
    12 men. 2 of them journalists and 1 that stopped with his children to help.
    Biggins wrote: »
    This was an incident MONTHS ago. What do you want EVERY RPG, EVERY WEAPON found in Iraq listed and reported in every news story on the tv!
    3 years ago.

    They would jump on evidence that would paint them in a better light and report it back to reuters when they were looking for information on the deaths.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid


    MSNBC are blocking searches for the term "wikileaks"


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    12 men. 2 of them journalists and 1 that stopped with his children to help.

    3 years ago.

    They would jump on evidence that would paint them in a better light and report it back to reuters when they were looking for information on the deaths.

    Cheers. Correct.
    A VERY sad outcome.

    As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
    "You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
    I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.

    A point to ponder.
    In the intervening 3 years, how many innocents has the Taliban killed and why is the like of Al Jazzera not shouting about them daily???
    ...Naaa, a hell, lets jump on a rare actual incident instead to bash Americans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Biggins wrote: »
    As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
    "You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
    I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.
    A military has to do its job right, when it gets it wrong it deserves to be shouted about.
    Biggins wrote: »
    A point to ponder.
    In the intervening 3 years, how many innocents has the Taliban killed and why is the like of Al Jazzera not shouting about them daily???

    WTF? Why are you trying to derail a thread with something completely unrelated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 819 ✭✭✭sixpack's little hat


    Judging an organisation's actions against the Taliban isn't a very high level to aim for though is it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    MSNBC are blocking searches for the term "wikileaks"

    No mention on CNN either. The US media disgraces itself again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭citizen_p


    GaNjaHaN wrote: »
    That reminds me of the equally chilling intro to the following video:

    yeah i seen that withiut sh*t music...
    the start talking about the guy hiding under the truck etc... and it goes on for a while until he peeks out and the finish him

    theres alot of gun camera footage on the internet


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    smurgen wrote: »
    well if the weapons weren't confirmed why did they engage fire?why not be prudent and wait for confirmation?you cant "un-kill" someone. The yanks are trigger happy,especially the hired mercenaries like blackwater.

    Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

    What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
    It is!
    O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"


    With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
    Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!
    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    A military has to do its job right, when it gets it wrong it deserves to be shouted about.

    WTF? Why are you trying to derail a thread with something completely unrelated.
    Agree with the first point, no question.
    As for the second point, not trying to derail it but some here are very quick to conveniently forget what the hell the other side is doing also.
    Some JUST for supporting their "chip on the shoulder" about Americans and how they are made out to be all "blood thirsty killers" or words to that effect, if we swallowed their spin on events.


    I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general and/or those that are on the ground and have to make quick judgement calls - only on what they in their experience are seeing in real time.
    We can question like hell later but to immediately say they were "killers" just by viewing one camera view alone - is a hell of a call to make on an army and nation.
    Now that to me is also over-reacting!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Mister men


    When the Taliban target innocents, the rest of the world sees it and treats it as terrorism. The US are carrying out the exact thing that they're supposed to be at war against, and in doing so they're perpetuating the whole thing. They need a common enemy, and they're driving people to become enemies

    Which is in essence the whole point of it. The Americans NEED an enemy in order to continue the status quo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Biggins wrote: »
    Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

    What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
    It is!
    O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"

    With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
    Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!

    yeah they were 3 km away and under no threat.confirmation should rely on confirmation from ground sourced intelligence.i ask again, if they had to make a quick judgement,why did they choose to shoot?i'll tell ya cause that was there preferred option


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Biggins wrote: »
    Cheers. Correct.
    A VERY sad outcome.

    As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
    "You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
    I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.
    .

    well maby people are critical about there operations because they are illegal in the first place and actions such as innocents being murdered in this video point out just how bloody wreckless these so called liberators are


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Sheeps wrote: »
    george bush and obama are literally communist liberal nazis
    Sheeps wrote: »
    Can't wait to play this level in Modern Warfare 3.

    Sheeps you're in over your head on this one.

    Don't post in this thread again, thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Biggins wrote: »
    Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

    What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
    It is!
    O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"


    With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
    Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!


    Agree with the first point, no question.
    As for the second point, not trying to derail it but some here are very quick to conveniently forget what the hell the other side is doing also.
    Some JUST for supporting their "chip on the shoulder" about Americans and how they are made out to be all "blood thirsty killers" or words to that effect, if we swallowed their spin on events.


    I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general and/or those that are on the ground and have to make quick judgement calls - only on what they in their experience are seeing in real time.
    We can question like hell later but to immediately say they were "killers" just by viewing one camera view alone - is a hell of a call to make on an army and nation.
    Now that to me is also over-reacting!


    Your kidding right?


    How can even try and justify this.


    You'd seriously want to question your morals in that case so.

    Don't even bother replying if your going to say in any way, shape or form that it wasn't anything other than a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper.


    Nobody is saying the whole army are killers. It's just individuals like this who deserve to rot.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    smurgen wrote: »
    yeah they were 3 km away and under no threat.confirmation should rely on confirmation from ground sourced intelligence.i ask again, if they had to make a quick judgement,why did they choose to shoot?i'll tell ya cause that was there preferred option

    I think your missing the bigger picture here. Go back a bit.
    * There was an earlier gun battle.
    * The Americans were further then seeking out those with weapons. Bingo, in two - not one - two assessments, they found what appears to be 5/6 people with weapons ...and what happens, did...
    smurgen wrote: »
    well maybe people are critical about their operations because they are illegal in the first place and actions such as innocents being murdered in this video point out just how bloody wreck-less these so called liberators are

    Thats opinion.
    Iraq laws now make them legal to be there under their new constitution.
    Prior to that, I won't argue with you. This is a stupid war over oil by war monger Bush/Cheney - but thats another thread topic...

    "Wreckless?" Again, as per each incident, I wouldn't brand completely a whole army/nation just because of an incident, however unfortunate it is.
    Osu wrote: »
    Your kidding right?
    How can even try and justify this.
    You'd seriously want to question your morals in that case so.
    Don't even bother replying if your going to say in any way, shape or form that it wasn't anything other than a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper.
    Nobody is saying the whole army are killers. It's just individuals like this who deserve to rot.

    * I don't justify it. I can't. I wasn't there and fully aware of the bigger picture of the day and the events that FULLY surrounded it. Can you???
    * So far my morals have served me well. Who appointed you "Saint" and perfect!
    * "...a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper" Clearly you have an opinion that is so far extreme, there is not point even trying to get you to see any other view!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Biggins wrote: »


    I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general

    no one here attacked americans in general,just the american military machine.it's a menacing,bloodthirsty organisation that has no one to answer to.and there level of spending every year is unreal over 600bn, 7 times more than that of there nearest rivals-China. It's very easy for you to justify there actions when you don't live in a country which they tore up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    The original engagement could be put down to a mistake (possibly Id'ing a camera as an RPG launcher), and resultant panic or over zealousness on the part of the soldiers, firing when they could have taken more time to confrim things. The second attack on the van is out and out murder of the most cowardly kind and any body in this thread that has been trying to defend it should be disgusted with themselves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Biggins wrote: »
    I think your missing the bigger picture here. Go back a bit.
    * There was an earlier gun battle.
    * The Amerians wer further then seeking out those with weapons. Bingo, in two - not one - two assessments, they found what appeas to be 5/6 people with weapons ...and what happens, did...


    Hmmm. Ak-47's aren't common at all in Iraq.... :rolleyes:

    Severe moral issues here dude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
    "Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

    Skill lads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭Dara Robinson


    .... Hitler ..... Nazis ..... Al Qaeda ..... Taliban ...... Guys can we stop the trolling please. This is about something that happened in Baghdad. For those of you who don't know its in Iraq and has nothing to do with Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, the Taliban or .... Hitler?? How did he get into it?? :rolleyes:

    Seriously, come on


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Osu wrote: »
    Hmmm. Ak-47's aren't common at all in Iraq.... :rolleyes:
    Severe moral issues here dude.
    What the hell are you on about for gods sake!
    The country is rife with AK47's - even AK48's if true be told - I never said any different.
    What the fcuk are you on about!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
    "Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

    Skill lads.

    Yo buddy, I'm half American....


    Have two brothers in the USMC.


    Don't appreciate that shite.


    Yeah there are psycho's in the military, but don't paint everyone with the one brush.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
    "Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

    Skill lads.

    I've written some crap, especially lately - but that above takes some beating.
    Ranting and raving forum is elsewhere lad.

    Have you even read my thoughts on Bush/Cheney/ the war over oil!!!
    * sigh *


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Biggins wrote: »
    What the hell are you on about for gods sake!
    The country is rife with AK47's - even AK48's if true be told - I never said any different.
    What the fcuk are you on about!

    You said they were engaged earlier, so that's ok to go and kill the first people they see with guns?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Osu wrote: »
    You said they were engaged earlier, so that's ok to go and kill the first people they see with guns?
    Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL known war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
    Do you?

    If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
    If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
    That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

    When the many forces in WW2 saw an enemy, they opened fire.
    Be the enemy walking towards them or not. That principle hasn't changed in war.
    It might be right or wrong - but it hasn't changed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL know war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
    Do you?

    If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
    If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
    That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

    Come off it. We have all seen the TV reports of the firing of AK's at weddings and many similar reports of these weapons being carried by the various militias in Iraq. Furthermore, any pictures or video reports of Afghan farmers invariably shows them carrying an AK47.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    karma_ wrote: »
    Come off it. We have all seen the TV reports of the firing of AK's at weddings and many similar reports of these weapons being carried by the various militias in Iraq. Furthermore, any pictures or video reports of Afghan farmers invariably shows them carrying an AK47.
    Very true, and those events as they are found are assessed and dealed with accordingly.

    The events of 3 years ago and the prior events surround it, adds to the what went on on that faithfully day.
    I'm NOT saying they were fully right - I'm saying they made a judgement call that sadly turn out to be partly wrong - no question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 tomhappens


    Based on the fact that the guys in the chopper were trying to track down people who had attacked them with small arms fire, I think given the video I'd have done the same and pulled the trigger. BUT looking at it now with the knowledge that I have it does look a little like a camera lens when one guy is jutting around the corner before they are shot.... but not knowing said knowledge it is a standard RPG firing position that he was assuming. Bar the fact his mates were behind him and he'd have killed a few of them letting off an RPG round.

    Never stand behind someone with an RPG launcher. FACT!


  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    Biggins wrote: »
    I've written some crap, especially lately - but that above takes some beating.
    Ranting and raving forum is elsewhere lad.

    Have you even read my thoughts on Bush/Cheney/ the war over oil!!!
    * sigh *

    What!! so I should read all Biggins previous posts to fully appreciate your stance, well sorry mate but ~I was referring to your condoning of US lethal force as in the video posted, that's right US lethal force tearing bodies to pieces in a country most americans couldn't find on a map.

    So I suggest you reread your own Bush?Chaney war over oil rants.
    I was just commenting on your twisted view of US Military in action that's all no raving or ranting here all calm and unapologetic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭Mister men


    American military in shoot first ask later policy shocker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Gigiwagga


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL known war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
    Do you?

    If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
    If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
    That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

    When the many forces in WW2 saw an enemy, they opened fire.
    Be the enemy walking towards them or not. That principle hasn't changed in war.
    It might be right or wrong - but it hasn't changed.

    Too much CoD being played here I think, Geez are you in Black Ops !!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    What!! so I should read all Biggins previous posts to fully appreciate your stance, well sorry mate but ~I was referring to your condoning of US lethal force as in the video posted, that's right US lethal force tearing bodies to pieces in a country most americans couldn't find on a map.

    I without hesitation condone the killing of innocent people and I too would absolutely question the events surrounding the van.
    Please don't put words in my mouth.
    As for for looking up what I said about Bush/Cheny/etc - jeeze, thats only a few posts back alone - even that's too hard work for you it seems.
    Too much CoD being played here I think, Geez are you in Black Ops !!

    LOL - some chance.
    A few more years and it will be a black hearse! :(


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