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[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

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    #92
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    karma_ wrote: »
    but it's a camera tripod, not an RPG.

    Clearly the video quality is not good enough to identify it as a quite large weapon, but it's good enough quality to identify it as a smaller camera tripod.


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    #93
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Sheeps wrote: »
    Clearly the video quality is not good enough to identify it as a quite large weapon, but it's good enough quality to identify it as a smaller camera tripod.

    so why were the civillians shot if it could not be determined what they were actually carrying?

    I'll say this one more time, in the hopes it will sink in.

    Cameraman and his crew mistaken for an RPG team, who were then shot and killed. The whole tragedy being that it was not in fact an RPG but a camera man with a camera and tripod. Seriously, this is the essence of the whole story yet you are more interested in babbling about the RPG that never was.

    Also, my last word on the whole sorry incident. I am now no longer surprised that there are now over 1 million dead Iraqi civillians, consideing the care in which insurgents have been targeted.


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    #94
    sron
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    Sheeps wrote: »
    As someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, there's a good chance that they didn't know the helicopters were there.

    I think that's unlikely. Even if there was cloud cover (which couldn't have been heavy given the video), helicopters are loud and very conspicuous.

    Re: Biggins
    This is not one of those inevitable accidents of war. This shows the arrogance and contempt of the US armed forces which will prevent them ever winning this war.


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    #95
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    sron wrote: »
    I'm sorry, do you think that there's a possibility that armed Iraqi insurgents would walk around with their weapons exposed right underneath a helicopter gunship? .

    Yes - no question. Its been shown many times in this long ongoing conflict and others (Palestine alone!) that they adopt an attitude that "we are in amid civilians and civilian areas, they won't/can't shoot"
    Balls the size of brass monkeys but yes, they actually do stupid things like this.
    sron wrote: »
    If you did that, they would absolutely shoot you dead.
    Why? The soldiers in the gun ship WOULD NOT open fire even on the injured man crawling away because they did NOT see a weapon subsequently on him.

    I'm sure myself that if anyone started to run away and wasn't carrying a weapon, they wouldn't shoot.
    Hell if that was the case, every innocent person running away from a potential sudden scene of a battle, would be gun cannon fodder and we'd be hearing about it hourly, not just daily!
    sron wrote: »
    The Americans think they're playing video games.
    ...in your opinion!
    I'm sure when they are dodging bullets and rocket launchers, the last thing they are thinking of is video games and pac-man! Jeeze... :rolleyes:


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    #96
    Dara Robinson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭Dara Robinson


    karma_ wrote: »
    but it's a camera tripod, not an RPG.

    http://i40.tinypic.com/wb3zgn.jpg


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    #97
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Dara Robinson wrote: »
    http://i40.tinypic.com/wb3zgn.jpg

    Dara seriously, read what it says in that text again! please. ie. 'looks like'


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    #98
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Mark200 wrote: »
    That picture is completely irrelevant. The soldier who said that was seeing exactly the same thing that we are seeing.
    We are seeing from just ONE view.
    Maybe those in the gunships had other views also thru binoculars - its not unthinkable is it?
    Imagine, a soldier manning the actual gun/pilot/co-pilot with actual binoculars!
    Its not too far a stretch to say it a possibility.


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    #99
    Frank Spencer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭Frank Spencer


    Here's how it was reported at the time.

    Not sure if this version of events tallies.
    The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.


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    #100
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,524 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    sron wrote: »
    I'm sorry, do you think that there's a possibility that armed Iraqi insurgents would walk around with their weapons exposed right underneath a helicopter gunship?
    That's not correct, the gunship seems a long way away with a good zoom. Look and hear how long it takes the bullets to hit the targets to get an idea.

    Not quite sure why you are saying 'right underneath' when clearly the helicopter is at an angle, not directly overhead - hence the circling.

    Looking at the first shots it seems to take 2 and a quarter seconds from hearing the shots to seeing the bullets hit the ground. Those guns are probably high velocity dealies, but even if they have a velocity of a magnum handgun it would be around 900metres away, nearly a kilometer. If it was a higher powered machine gun it could be 1.5 or 2 KM away maybe? Someone else might be better at the maths.


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    #101
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    karma_ wrote: »
    Dara seriously, read what it says in that text again! please. ie. 'looks like'
    Ugh, stop splitting hairs. The person who is saying that it "looks like" is a bloody soldier standing over the dead body. It's a confirmation of weapons.

    Also, my last post was making fun of your whole "it's a tripod" argument, I'm not saying the quality is not good enough to classify weapons.


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    #102
    sron
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    Biggins wrote: »

    I'm sure myself that if anyone started to run away and wasn't carrying a weapon, they wouldn't shoot.


    Hell if that was the case, every innocent person running away from a potential sudden scene of a battle, would be gun cannon fodder and we'd be hearing about it hourly, not just daily!

    Do the US armed forces not kill people daily? Most are reported as civilians, and if this video is any example many more civilian deaths are probably filed under "insurgents".

    Why do you think they wouldn't shoot at anyone unarmed? They shot at the men who were holding something large and long (that was all I could make out anyway), the unarmed people who arrived to help the wounded. Have you never heard of Mai Lai? Make a point of watching Al-Jahzeera for 5 minutes a day and I promise within 2 weeks you'll see how silly your comment looks.


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    #103
    Bonito
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,399 ✭✭✭Bonito


    Gordon wrote: »
    That's not correct, the gunship seems a long way away with a good zoom. Look and hear how long it takes the bullets to hit the targets to get an idea.

    Not quite sure why you are saying 'right underneath' when clearly the helicopter is at an angle, not directly overhead - hence the circling.
    Also, from the length of time it takes them to circle back around to bring them back in to view while they're behind the building would suggest they're at a lengthy distance.


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    #104
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Sheeps wrote: »
    Ugh, stop splitting hairs. The person who is saying that it "looks like" is a bloody soldier standing over the dead body. It's a confirmation of weapons.

    Also, my last post was making fun of your whole "it's a tripod" argument, I'm not saying the quality is not good enough to classify weapons.
    Originally Posted by Dara Robinson
    http://i40.tinypic.com/wb3zgn.jpg
    Dara seriously, read what it says in that text again! please. ie. 'looks like'

    The fact that the report says "looks like" does not confirm that it wasn't one.
    The place has just been blown the crap out of by many, many gun shells, each the size of ones hand alone.
    If there was anything there left in one piece anyway near the targets they were aiming for, I'd be very surprised.

    There is NO confirmation later either that it was not an RPG under the mans body. Just to be fair.


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    #105
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Biggins wrote: »
    The fact that the report says "looks like" does not confirm that it wasn't one.
    The place has just been blown the crap out of by many, many gun shells, each the size of ones hand alone.
    If there was anything there left in one piece anyway near the targets they were aiming for, I'd be very surprised.

    There is NO confirmation later either that it was not an RPG under the mans body. Just to be fair.

    fair enough Biggins, but since it was later established that it was 2 journalists who were killed, and what looked like an RPG in the video was in fact a camera can we not safely say there was no RPG found at the scene?

    I mean, if this was actually insurgents no one would be shouting, but teh fact that it is civilians, and not insurgents that creates the problem.


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    #106
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    Hitler killed a bunch of people too so we can safely deduce from this video that Hitler was literally flying the helicopter. From that we can deduce that because the attackers are Americans, that Obama too is literally Hitler and that the Jews were behind 9/11 which was probably the reason for these attacks.


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    #107
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    sron wrote: »
    Do the US armed forces not kill people daily? Most are reported as civilians, and if this video is any example many more civilian deaths are probably filed under "insurgents".

    Why do you think they wouldn't shoot at anyone unarmed? They shot at the men who were holding something large and long (that was all I could make out anyway), the unarmed people who arrived to help the wounded. Have you never heard of Mai Lai? Make a point of watching Al-Jahzeera for 5 minutes a day and I promise within 2 weeks you'll see how silly your comment looks.

    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though - a HELL of a lot more daily! Why is that?
    "A' fcuk it. Lets just take this opportunity to gave a go at bashing Americans instead."

    You stick to your Al-Jahzeera. I'm sure they like many American stations, have their own version of events they way they want to see it and call it.
    I wonder why! :rolleyes:


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    #108
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though - a HELL of a lot more daily! Why is that?

    I think it's because we tend to hold the American actions to a higher standard than that of the Taliban. We expect low brow from the Taliban, but not the Americans?


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    #109
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Biggins wrote: »
    You stick to your Al-Jahzeera. I'm sure they like many American stations, have their own version of events they way they want to see it and call it.
    I wonder why! :rolleyes:

    I like to check each of the stations story out sometimes to try and piece it together. France 24 and RT give some interesting slants also.


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    #110
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm absolutely sure that civilians have been killed by American soldiers - but by accident - not by design!

    I don't hear you condemning the many more thousands killed by the murderous Taliban though! Why is that?
    "A' fcuk it. Lets just take this opportunity to gave a go at bashing Americans instead."

    Probably because the Taliban is not the armed force of a country bound by international law, the Geneva convention or the UN. We expect better from a democratic society that we consider our friend...sometimes when your friend starts acting like a prick you have to tell him so.


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    #111
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    karma_ wrote: »
    fair enough Biggins, but since it was later established that it was 2 journalists who were killed, and what looked like an RPG in the video was in fact a camera can we not safely say there was no RPG found at the scene?

    I mean, if this was actually insurgents no one would be shouting, but the fact that it is civilians, and not insurgents that creates the problem.

    I'm sadly sure that amid that mess was a camera and two camera men.
    However AFTER the shooting ended alone, it was assessed by a soldier (whom we can expect to by now have some experience in recognising equipment more so than the rest of us) that he was seeing also an RPG.

    For the men in the gunships, it was an on the spot judgement call.
    For the soldiers on the ground later it was a quick establishment of the scene and a very brief report back.
    Sadly, due to American military secrecy, we will probably never know the eventual assessment of the events as the whole incident info was amassed later.


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    #112
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    You have to see it from the gunners perspective aswell. They identify what appears to be a fairly large group of people holding what appears to be small arms and an RPG. Now the small arms won't down an apache helicopter but a well placed RPG could down the helicopter in 1 or 2 hits. Letting them go could have been very risky from their perspective.


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    #113
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    That doesn't fit in with karma_'s idea of events though...

    death 2 amerikkka allah akbar


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    #114
    sron
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭sron


    Biggins wrote: »
    I'm sadly sure that amid that mess was a camera and two camera men.
    However AFTER the shooting ended alone, it was assessed by a soldier (whom we can expect to by now have some experience in recognising equipment more so than the rest of us) that he was seeing also an RPG.

    For the men in the gunships, it was an on the spot judgement call.
    For the soldiers on the ground later it was a quick establishment of the scene and a very brief report back.
    Sadly, due to American military secrecy, we will probably never know the eventual assessment of the events as the whole incident info was amassed later.

    If there was an RPG, the Pentagon would not keep it secret.


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    #115
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Sheeps wrote: »
    That doesn't fit in with karma_'s idea of events though...

    death 2 amerikkka allah akbar

    :eek:


    Surely time this poster got popped.?


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    #116
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    george bush and obama are literally communist liberal nazis


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    #117
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You have to see it from the gunners perspective aswell. They identify what appears to be a fairly large group of people holding what appears to be small arms and an RPG. Now the small arms won't down an apache helicopter but a well placed RPG could down the helicopter in 1 or 2 hits. Letting them go could have been very risky from their perspective.
    There is 0 risk from to an apache from a RPG at that distance. The apache is no where near the group and the is no guidance on a RPG.


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    #118
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    karma_ wrote: »
    I think it's because we tend to hold the American actions to a higher standard than that of the Taliban. We expect low brow from the Taliban, but not the Americans?

    Absolutely - no question.
    For the boys and the girls on the scene at real time, its an immediate judgement call.
    Look at what we actually saw and heard.
    We are told (I think) that there was some sort of arms fire shortly before.
    Two gunships searching, find 5/6 men with what looks like weapons.
    Those in the air give their assessment to base. Base says "open fire" - the rest is history.

    Sure we have to hold them to a higher standard - but that still don't take away from the fact that in real time - its a split second judgement call and nothing less.

    The outcome for two men in this case was unfortunate - not the first and last case in this war we can assume
    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    I like to check each of the stations story out sometimes to try and piece it together. France 24 and RT give some interesting slants also.

    Me too. I try to stay away from the main countries stations that have their own spin based on country and or religion relationship.
    hideous ape wrote: »
    Probably because the Taliban is not the armed force of a country bound by international law, the Geneva convention or the UN. We expect better from a democratic society that we consider our friend...sometimes when your friend starts acting like a prick you have to tell him so.

    No argument there. Its only by calling them on such actions can they be brought further to a higher standard.
    As per my tag line for months now... "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
    sron wrote: »
    If there was an RPG, the Pentagon would not keep it secret.
    Rubbish.
    Many, many times they have kept such things quiet for the sake of it being exposed that the weapons were actually American made sometimes alone.
    Propaganda-wise alone, they would shut-up about this - and thats just one possible reason amid many that we might not even think about.

    This was an incident MONTHS ago. What do you want EVERY RPG, EVERY WEAPON found in Iraq listed and reported in every news story on the tv!


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    #119
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    BBC article about Wikileaks releasing the video - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm

    look at how many people are discussing it - http://www.google.ie/search?q=wikileaks&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=7tX&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=rltm:1&tbo=u&ei=-zm6S-ulFs-w4QaW6-nDDg&sa=X&oi=realtime_result_group_more_results_link&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CCgQ5QUwBA


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    #120
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    well if the weapons weren't confirmed why did they engage fire?why not be prudent and wait for confirmation?you cant "un-kill" someone. The yanks are trigger happy,especially the hired mercenaries like blackwater.


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    #121
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Biggins wrote: »
    The outcome for two men in this case was unfortunate
    12 men. 2 of them journalists and 1 that stopped with his children to help.
    Biggins wrote: »
    This was an incident MONTHS ago. What do you want EVERY RPG, EVERY WEAPON found in Iraq listed and reported in every news story on the tv!
    3 years ago.

    They would jump on evidence that would paint them in a better light and report it back to reuters when they were looking for information on the deaths.


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