[KEEP IT CIVIL] Wikileaks release Video of the murder of Iraqi civilians

billy the squid

MSNBC are blocking searches for the term "wikileaks"

Biggins

Ciaran500 wrote: »

12 men. 2 of them journalists and 1 that stopped with his children to help.

3 years ago.

They would jump on evidence that would paint them in a better light and report it back to reuters when they were looking for information on the deaths.

Cheers. Correct.
A VERY sad outcome.

As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
"You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.

A point to ponder.
In the intervening 3 years, how many innocents has the Taliban killed and why is the like of Al Jazzera not shouting about them daily???
...Naaa, a hell, lets jump on a rare actual incident instead to bash Americans.

Ciaran500

Biggins wrote: »

As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
"You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.

A military has to do its job right, when it gets it wrong it deserves to be shouted about.

Biggins wrote: »

A point to ponder.
In the intervening 3 years, how many innocents has the Taliban killed and why is the like of Al Jazzera not shouting about them daily???

WTF? Why are you trying to derail a thread with something completely unrelated.

sixpack's little hat

Judging an organisation's actions against the Taliban isn't a very high level to aim for though is it.

sron

billy the squid wrote: »

MSNBC are blocking searches for the term "wikileaks"

No mention on CNN either. The US media disgraces itself again.

citizen_p

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

That reminds me of the equally chilling intro to the following video:

yeah i seen that withiut sh*t music...
the start talking about the guy hiding under the truck etc... and it goes on for a while until he peeks out and the finish him

theres alot of gun camera footage on the internet

Biggins

smurgen wrote: »

well if the weapons weren't confirmed why did they engage fire?why not be prudent and wait for confirmation?you cant "un-kill" someone. The yanks are trigger happy,especially the hired mercenaries like blackwater.

Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
It is!
O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"

With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!

Ciaran500 wrote: »

A military has to do its job right, when it gets it wrong it deserves to be shouted about.

WTF? Why are you trying to derail a thread with something completely unrelated.

Agree with the first point, no question.
As for the second point, not trying to derail it but some here are very quick to conveniently forget what the hell the other side is doing also.
Some JUST for supporting their "chip on the shoulder" about Americans and how they are made out to be all "blood thirsty killers" or words to that effect, if we swallowed their spin on events.

---

I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general and/or those that are on the ground and have to make quick judgement calls - only on what they in their experience are seeing in real time.
We can question like hell later but to immediately say they were "killers" just by viewing one camera view alone - is a hell of a call to make on an army and nation.
Now that to me is also over-reacting!

Mister men

My name is URL wrote: »

When the Taliban target innocents, the rest of the world sees it and treats it as terrorism. The US are carrying out the exact thing that they're supposed to be at war against, and in doing so they're perpetuating the whole thing. They need a common enemy, and they're driving people to become enemies

Which is in essence the whole point of it. The Americans NEED an enemy in order to continue the status quo.

smurgen

Biggins wrote: »

Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
It is!
O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"

With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!

yeah they were 3 km away and under no threat.confirmation should rely on confirmation from ground sourced intelligence.i ask again, if they had to make a quick judgement,why did they choose to shoot?i'll tell ya cause that was there preferred option

smurgen

Biggins wrote: »

Cheers. Correct.
A VERY sad outcome.

As a top CIA spokesperson once said:
"You don't hear about the many successes we have, only about the failures."
I'd say the same principle applies for all the military ongoings, past and present.
.

well maby people are critical about there operations because they are illegal in the first place and actions such as innocents being murdered in this video point out just how bloody wreckless these so called liberators are

TheZohanS

Sheeps wrote: »

george bush and obama are literally communist liberal nazis

Sheeps wrote: »

Can't wait to play this level in Modern Warfare 3.

Sheeps you're in over your head on this one.

Don't post in this thread again, thanks.

Le King

Biggins wrote: »

Whats your idea of "confirmed" ???

What are they supposed to do? Land the gunships, jump out and stroll up "Excuse me sir is that a gun your points at me or an RPG?
It is!
O' well hang on, I'll jump back in the aircraft and we can resume battle!"

With a battle shortly beforehand, and they looking for insurgents there after, judgements calls were made on the spot in real time.
Its all too easy for everyone to judge later!


Agree with the first point, no question.
As for the second point, not trying to derail it but some here are very quick to conveniently forget what the hell the other side is doing also.
Some JUST for supporting their "chip on the shoulder" about Americans and how they are made out to be all "blood thirsty killers" or words to that effect, if we swallowed their spin on events.

---

I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general and/or those that are on the ground and have to make quick judgement calls - only on what they in their experience are seeing in real time.
We can question like hell later but to immediately say they were "killers" just by viewing one camera view alone - is a hell of a call to make on an army and nation.
Now that to me is also over-reacting!

Your kidding right?


How can even try and justify this.


You'd seriously want to question your morals in that case so.

Don't even bother replying if your going to say in any way, shape or form that it wasn't anything other than a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper.


Nobody is saying the whole army are killers. It's just individuals like this who deserve to rot.

Biggins

smurgen wrote: »

yeah they were 3 km away and under no threat.confirmation should rely on confirmation from ground sourced intelligence.i ask again, if they had to make a quick judgement,why did they choose to shoot?i'll tell ya cause that was there preferred option

I think your missing the bigger picture here. Go back a bit.
* There was an earlier gun battle.
* The Americans were further then seeking out those with weapons. Bingo, in two - not one - two assessments, they found what appears to be 5/6 people with weapons ...and what happens, did...

smurgen wrote: »

well maybe people are critical about their operations because they are illegal in the first place and actions such as innocents being murdered in this video point out just how bloody wreck-less these so called liberators are

Thats opinion.
Iraq laws now make them legal to be there under their new constitution.
Prior to that, I won't argue with you. This is a stupid war over oil by war monger Bush/Cheney - but thats another thread topic...

"Wreckless?" Again, as per each incident, I wouldn't brand completely a whole army/nation just because of an incident, however unfortunate it is.

Osu wrote: »

Your kidding right?
How can even try and justify this.
You'd seriously want to question your morals in that case so.
Don't even bother replying if your going to say in any way, shape or form that it wasn't anything other than a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper.
Nobody is saying the whole army are killers. It's just individuals like this who deserve to rot.

* I don't justify it. I can't. I wasn't there and fully aware of the bigger picture of the day and the events that FULLY surrounded it. Can you???
* So far my morals have served me well. Who appointed you "Saint" and perfect!
* "...a bunch of blood hungry killer's in that chopper" Clearly you have an opinion that is so far extreme, there is not point even trying to get you to see any other view!

smurgen

Biggins wrote: »

I have NO love of the American military and their many, many mad actions but I'll be damned if I am just going to jump on any opportunity just to knock Americans in general

no one here attacked americans in general,just the american military machine.it's a menacing,bloodthirsty organisation that has no one to answer to.and there level of spending every year is unreal over 600bn, 7 times more than that of there nearest rivals-China. It's very easy for you to justify there actions when you don't live in a country which they tore up.

strobe

The original engagement could be put down to a mistake (possibly Id'ing a camera as an RPG launcher), and resultant panic or over zealousness on the part of the soldiers, firing when they could have taken more time to confrim things. The second attack on the van is out and out murder of the most cowardly kind and any body in this thread that has been trying to defend it should be disgusted with themselves.

Le King

Biggins wrote: »

I think your missing the bigger picture here. Go back a bit.
* There was an earlier gun battle.
* The Amerians wer further then seeking out those with weapons. Bingo, in two - not one - two assessments, they found what appeas to be 5/6 people with weapons ...and what happens, did...

Hmmm. Ak-47's aren't common at all in Iraq.... :rolleyes:

Severe moral issues here dude.

Gigiwagga

Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
"Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

Skill lads.

Dara Robinson

.... Hitler ..... Nazis ..... Al Qaeda ..... Taliban ...... Guys can we stop the trolling please. This is about something that happened in Baghdad. For those of you who don't know its in Iraq and has nothing to do with Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, the Taliban or .... Hitler?? How did he get into it?? :rolleyes:

Seriously, come on

Biggins

Osu wrote: »

Hmmm. Ak-47's aren't common at all in Iraq.... :rolleyes:
Severe moral issues here dude.

What the hell are you on about for gods sake!
The country is rife with AK47's - even AK48's if true be told - I never said any different.
What the fcuk are you on about!

Le King

info@williamrua wrote: »

Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
"Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

Skill lads.

Yo buddy, I'm half American....


Have two brothers in the USMC.


Don't appreciate that shite.


Yeah there are psycho's in the military, but don't paint everyone with the one brush.

Biggins

info@williamrua wrote: »

Geez Biggins and Sheep your condoning of these invading murderers is quite something. Even the pathetic attempt to equate some horrible taliban crime with it is bloody sweet. What country are we talking about again, hmm right Iraq... 'mericans blowin' the s*** out of some peasants, cool, see it's a soldiers job see blowin' civs to bits see, it's what they do see, it's their duty, and yes it's perfectly reasonable to be blowin' peasants up in a country 6 thousands miles away from the good ole us of a.
"Loike. I've spent years lookin at crap on the internets and that was definitely an RPG." and that grunt definitely said he thought he saw what looked like an rpg round lying under a dismembered body. You two should join the US forces and when you're flying over Iraq you should both jump out with your bayonets drawn and your night vision goggles on, just in case, and ye could sort the whole sorry mess out, you're both so completely right. Uncle Sam is jus defendin' hiself is all, poor lilole uncle Sam, keepin' us all nice an' safe.

Skill lads.

I've written some crap, especially lately - but that above takes some beating.
Ranting and raving forum is elsewhere lad.

Have you even read my thoughts on Bush/Cheney/ the war over oil!!!
* sigh *

Le King

Biggins wrote: »

What the hell are you on about for gods sake!
The country is rife with AK47's - even AK48's if true be told - I never said any different.
What the fcuk are you on about!

You said they were engaged earlier, so that's ok to go and kill the first people they see with guns?

Biggins

Osu wrote: »

You said they were engaged earlier, so that's ok to go and kill the first people they see with guns?

Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL known war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
Do you?

If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

When the many forces in WW2 saw an enemy, they opened fire.
Be the enemy walking towards them or not. That principle hasn't changed in war.
It might be right or wrong - but it hasn't changed.

karma_

Biggins wrote: »

Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL know war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
Do you?

If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

Come off it. We have all seen the TV reports of the firing of AK's at weddings and many similar reports of these weapons being carried by the various militias in Iraq. Furthermore, any pictures or video reports of Afghan farmers invariably shows them carrying an AK47.

Biggins

karma_ wrote: »

Come off it. We have all seen the TV reports of the firing of AK's at weddings and many similar reports of these weapons being carried by the various militias in Iraq. Furthermore, any pictures or video reports of Afghan farmers invariably shows them carrying an AK47.

Very true, and those events as they are found are assessed and dealed with accordingly.

The events of 3 years ago and the prior events surround it, adds to the what went on on that faithfully day.
I'm NOT saying they were fully right - I'm saying they made a judgement call that sadly turn out to be partly wrong - no question.

tomhappens

Based on the fact that the guys in the chopper were trying to track down people who had attacked them with small arms fire, I think given the video I'd have done the same and pulled the trigger. BUT looking at it now with the knowledge that I have it does look a little like a camera lens when one guy is jutting around the corner before they are shot.... but not knowing said knowledge it is a standard RPG firing position that he was assuming. Bar the fact his mates were behind him and he'd have killed a few of them letting off an RPG round.

Never stand behind someone with an RPG launcher. FACT!

Gigiwagga

Biggins wrote: »

I've written some crap, especially lately - but that above takes some beating.
Ranting and raving forum is elsewhere lad.

Have you even read my thoughts on Bush/Cheney/ the war over oil!!!
* sigh *

What!! so I should read all Biggins previous posts to fully appreciate your stance, well sorry mate but ~I was referring to your condoning of US lethal force as in the video posted, that's right US lethal force tearing bodies to pieces in a country most americans couldn't find on a map.

So I suggest you reread your own Bush?Chaney war over oil rants.
I was just commenting on your twisted view of US Military in action that's all no raving or ranting here all calm and unapologetic.

Mister men

American military in shoot first ask later policy shocker.

Gigiwagga

Biggins wrote: »

Well I don't think innocent civilians in a WELL known war zone and/or place where a battle took place earlier, would be walking around with widow makers strung over their shoulders!
Do you?

If they are not friendlies, guess what, I too would suspect they are the enemy.
If your in the midst of a long on going fight with enemies, your not going to let them walk away for them to possibly kill the next day your comrades, are you!
That would be just stupidity of the highest order.

When the many forces in WW2 saw an enemy, they opened fire.
Be the enemy walking towards them or not. That principle hasn't changed in war.
It might be right or wrong - but it hasn't changed.

Too much CoD being played here I think, Geez are you in Black Ops !!

Biggins

info@williamrua wrote: »

What!! so I should read all Biggins previous posts to fully appreciate your stance, well sorry mate but ~I was referring to your condoning of US lethal force as in the video posted, that's right US lethal force tearing bodies to pieces in a country most americans couldn't find on a map.

I without hesitation condone the killing of innocent people and I too would absolutely question the events surrounding the van.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
As for for looking up what I said about Bush/Cheny/etc - jeeze, thats only a few posts back alone - even that's too hard work for you it seems.

info@williamrua wrote: »

Too much CoD being played here I think, Geez are you in Black Ops !!

LOL - some chance.
A few more years and it will be a black hearse!