Pope's Pastoral Letter

arybvtcw0eolkf

:pac:

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'd really like to fight him.
Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing would be enough to ease some of my anger regarding the church I would think.
Then ten rounds with Sean Brady the next day...

..

They'd both beat you around the ring :pac:

LookingFor

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Wasn't he found to be covering up child abuse in Germany not so long ago?
Abuse in the 80's when he was a bishop or something?
I don't see how he can be preaching about child abuse here when he didn't do anything about child abuse in his own country...

His dioscese sat on a case in the 80s, yes.

He was archbishop in that diocese at the time.

His #2 at the time has dutifully come foward and taken the fall...

It was a first case. Often more come out in the wash once one or two appear, so we'll have to wait and see on that.

But yes, you could argue he is compromised in his ability to deal aggressively with the church authorities in Ireland as a result. Afterall, if he prescribes a course of action - or resignations - in Ireland, the same prescription applied elsewhere in the future, such as in Germany, could severely compromise his own position.

So you could suggest he has to be careful how he treats the Irish bishops so he doesn't later shoot himself in the foot.

Cheap Thrills!

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'd really like to fight him.
Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing would be enough to ease some of my anger regarding the church I would think.
Then ten rounds with Sean Brady the next day...

Bash the Bishop!

PeterIanStaker

Hank_Jones wrote: »

.

I'd really like to fight him.
Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing would be enough to ease some of my anger regarding the church I would think.
Then ten rounds with Sean Brady the next day...

I dont think bare knuckle boxing would defeat him, you'd need a lightsabre.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_O51Y5rvfCxM/Sb-WXJKUFbI/AAAAAAAAAow/WRRR6cwsV2o/s400/Pope_or_Sith_Lord.jpg

PeterIanStaker

On a serious note, however, this letter makes me feel hopeless. These people neither want to change or care about the victims. They'll do a whitewash job and the hoi polloi will fall for it hook line and sinker.

brendansmith

Jesus Id prefer to be child molested rather than have to read that whole thing any day.

Hank_Jones

Camille Blue Sourdough wrote: »

:pac:


They'd both beat you around the ring :pac:

But I have the power of not believing in God on my side, so I wouldn't be waiting for divine intervention...

Agent J

It aint that long.

Meh. Starts off well.... Then goes into an Irish history lesson....Calls for priest to repents...I am sorry... Says i might pop over for a visit....

to be honest it reads too much like the vatican thinks its a netural 3rd party commenting on an outside situation. I also thought the amount of concern for the victims was much much less then its concern for how to fix the church.

Was expecting worse

prinz

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

On a serious note, however, this letter makes me feel hopeless. These people neither want to change or care about the victims. They'll do a whitewash job and the hoi polloi will fall for it hook line and sinker.

You do realise that a pastoral letter is simply that? A letter for the faithful?

There is a lot of changes and work being done behind the scenes that you won't hear about in the media.

MackDeToaster

What a load of waffle. On a very (30sec) glance through this, these bits jumped out at me :eek:

"In particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings."

"Canonically irregular situations" ? And just look at what follows, it would seem that what is more important is the "weakening of faith and loss of respect".


"11. To my brother bishops
It cannot be denied that some of you and your predecessors failed, at
times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the
crime of child abuse..... Besides fully implementing the norms of canon law in addressing cases of child abuse, continue to cooperate with the civil authorities in their area of competence. Clearly, religious superiors should do likewise. T"

Fully implementing canon law, what about civil law ? The long established norms of canon law would, I presume with the lack of any further clarification, to be to continue swearing oaths of secrecy and threats of excommunication as per his secret letter of 10 years ago. I'll have to go through this meandering muck again, mine eyes

Noffles

Utter ****e the whole lot... it's made that long so that people get bored and don't finish it... if they do they'll realise it's just a big load of smoke to hope it all goes away ... ****ing shower of *****.... I'd love to cause a right ****ing row in my local peado den (the church) on a Sunday morning see what the brainwashed plebites would do!!!

Biggins

Parts of the letter summarised.

Part 1
We came together, we talked, we came up with ideas.

Part 2
Pope decided to write letter.
Tell us all "Perseverance and prayer are needed, with great trust in the healing power of God’s grace" but first in order for this to happen "the church in Ireland must first acknowledge before the Lord and before others the serious sins committed against defenceless children."
Asks for "honest self-examination and a committed programme of ecclesial and individual renewal." (Say what?)

Part 3
History lesson!

Part 4
Its the public's fault - WE all mis-interpretated Rome, "frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected."
Parts of their selection procedure were flawed.
Urgent action is needed! (but feck all "urgent" coming from them!)

Part 5
Pope met victims, contacted bishops.

Part 6
I'm sorry.
Compares christ's wounds to the abuse!

Part 7
Bad priests are bad!
You will answer for it to someone.
Offer "prayers and penances for those you have wronged"

Part 8
"You have been deeply shocked to learn of the terrible things that took place in what ought to be the safest and most secure environment of all. In today’s world it is not easy to build a home and to bring up children."
(Aaa thanks for telling us what we already know. Dad of 4 here!)
Play your part while pope "continues to implement the measures adopted in recent years to protect young people in
parish and school environments"

Part 9
Things have changed for children over time.
Christ still loves you.
"Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus and his goodness, and shelter the flame of faith in your heart."

Part 10
Directed to priests:
We are all suffering.
Priests were tainted.
Reaffirm your faith in Christ.
"I know that many of you are disappointed, bewildered and angered by the way these matters have been handled by some of your superiors"

Part 11
Directed to bishops:
Some made mistakes.
"I appreciate the efforts you have made to remedy past mistakes and to guarantee that they do not happen again."
"It is imperative that the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland be continually revised and updated and that they be applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law."
(Should be noted- he addresses more to the bishops here than he does to the actual victims!)

Part 12
Measures are needed - more plans are needed. Stick to the path!

Part 13
"Encouragement and support"

Part 14
Get out and pray!
I am coming to Ireland!
Clergy then will have a meeting - again!
Thanks all those for their work.

Hagar

Biggins wrote: »

PASTORAL LETTER OF THE HOLY FATHER
POPE BENEDICT XVI TO THE CATHOLICS OF IRELAND

1. DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF THE CHURCH IN IRELAND, You can't touch us and your politicians haven't got the balls to try so yah boo sucks.

Amen.

FYP

Rebelheart

Surprisingly, this story is the lead story across Europe:

Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/ (where they are complaining that he never mentioned the abuse in Germany)

France: http://www.lemonde.fr/

Britain: http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Italy: http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/default.asp

Spain: http://www.elmundo.es/

dunleakelleher

Oremus wrote: »

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

So true. So let he who has not raped children or covered up and facilitated those rapist criticise and call for a resignation and a purge of all the offenders. . . that includes the pope is he is found guilty of a cover up.

That is the only way the RCC can regain the faith of its members and survive

prinz

Let's face it, nothing he'd say would or could ever be enough. So drop the false bloody outrage that he didn't say x or didn't mention y. If he wrote a 40 page document most of the half-wits wouldn't read it anyway, it took less than 5 minutes to read and already it needs to be 'summarised' etc. Pathetic really.

Hagar

oremus wrote:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Where's the Virgin Mary when you really need her?

Tiriel

It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the Church. In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel.

I find this really hard to stomach.

the_dark_side

69 wrote: »

Where's the Virgin Mary when you really need her?

wonder can you get an inflatable one :pac:

A Primal Nut

In recent decades, however, the Church in your country has had to
confront new and serious challenges to the faith arising from the rapid
transformation and secularization of Irish society. Fast-paced social
change has occurred, often adversely affecting people’s traditional
adherence to Catholic teaching and values. All too often, the sacramental
and devotional practices that sustain faith and enable it to grow, such as
frequent confession, daily prayer and annual retreats, were neglected.
Significant too was the tendency during this period, also on the part of
priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular
realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. The programme of
renewal proposed by the Second Vatican Council was sometimes
misinterpreted and indeed, in the light of the profound social changes that
were taking place, it was far from easy to know how best to implement it. In
particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid
penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall
context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child
sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening
of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings.

He seems to blame secularism for child abuse; and apparently seccularism led to a tendency to avoid using criminal law instead of canon law? How does that make sense? Its secularism that has led to this scandal becoming public knowledge in the first place. I couldn't disagree with this paragraph more. The abuse and cover-up was occuring from long before Irelad became secular.

Biggins

the_dark_side wrote: »

wonder can you get an inflatable one :pac:

I suspect you might find it on this site: http://www.mcphee.com/shop/products/Holy-Toast-Virgin-Mary-Toast-Stamper.html

LookingFor

He didn't tie it explicitly to the abuse.

Like I said earlier, he put it out there and then left it hanging. Maybe he forgot to go back and edit it out before hitting 'send' :rolleyes:

1in4

I wholeheartedly welcome the apparent honesty within this Pastoral. I do need more time to read and reflect upon it. A casual reading or a casual comment this early does not do justice to the pastoral or to the commentator!

prinz

A Primal Nut wrote: »

He seems to blame secularism for child abuse;.

No, he doesn't.

Biggins

1in4 wrote: »

I wholeheartedly welcome the apparent honesty within this Pastoral. I do need more time to read and reflect upon it. A casual reading or a casual comment this early does not do justice to the pastoral or to the commentator!

Sorry - I'm blind. Cay you say that louder?
Is the text of the letter going to change between now and six hours from now?

A Primal Nut

prinz wrote: »

No, he doesn't.

Did you read that paragraph?

MackDeToaster

I've just taken some more time out to read this more carefully and here's what I think. It's a fcuking disgrace :mad::mad:

OK, now this is just wrong, and bad. If the priests and, more importantly, bishops, had adopted secular realities then Brady would have reported Smyth, and the same goes for others. To try and conflate the churches coverup on 'secular' realities is just outrageous.

"Significant too was the tendency during this period, also on the part of priests and religious, to adopt ways of thinking and assessing secular realities without sufficient reference to the Gospel. .... In particular, there was a well-intentioned but misguided tendency to avoid penal approaches to canonically irregular situations. It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse, which has contributed in no small measure to the weakening of faith and the loss of respect for the Church and her teachings. "

And then this to the victims. Oh they listened alright, and then covered it up. No mention of that of course.
"6....Many of you found that, when you were courageous enough to speak of what happened to you, no one would listen."
Then follows perverted theological bull**** about how hurt, i.e. abuse and rape, is similar to what Jesus went through (oh no it's not) and is actually good for you, and please come back to the Church.

Then we come to the bishops, 11, who failed not at obeying civil law, but "failed, at times grievously, to apply the long-established norms of canon law to the crime of child abuse."
Canon law, still no mention of civil law. And he recognises ..
"how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the
right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice."
Once again, you are told a priest has raped a child, how fcuking difficult is it to report that priest to the Gardai, and throw him out of the church, fire him, the end. It doesn't seem very complex or difficult to me.

Then another unbelievable statement "It is imperative that the child safety norms of the Church in Ireland be continually revised and updated and that they be applied fully and impartially in conformity with canon law." Unbelievable because once more there is no of mention of civil law. Church law still trumps all.

Then this "Only decisive action carried out with complete honesty and transparency will restore the respect and good will of the Irish people towards the Church".
Fair enough you might think, but what will it be ?
"This must arise, first and foremost, from your own self-examination, inner purification and spiritual renewal."
Oh, so say a few prayers and everything will be alright. Don't resign, let alone, heaven forbid, bring yourself down to the Garda station to be charged under Misprision or the Offences against the State Act.

Part 14 starts off promising "14. I now wish to propose to you some concrete initiatives to address the situation." but then continues " At the conclusion of my meeting with the Irish bishops, I asked that Lent this year be set aside as a time to pray".

The concrete initiative to address the situation is to pray ?? ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME ? WHAT A ****ING JOKE ! I don't often get mad, but this is just ****ing insulting to anyones intelligence. If this is it then I can only say it's a complete and utter failure to address anything. Where has he been in the last few weeks, oh yeah, off in nevernever land.

prinz

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Did you read that paragraph?

What he means is that as society and the Church separated a lot of the clergy were caught in a type of "no-mans land" and this led to the problems of cover-up etc, in the end the people who became aware of the abuse didn't satisfactorily deal with the problem through canon law of the Church or civil law of the State and it was left to fester. Society changed, and the Church changed, but the change of the Church was not in tune with the change of society. That the clergy were trying to serve two masters and in the end failed at serving either.

LookingFor

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Did you read that paragraph?

In the overall context, it's what came next that he seemed to tie directly to the abuse, not so much this.

The closest he comes to tieing secularism to the abuse is to say "It is in this overall context that we must try to understand the disturbing problem of child sexual abuse". Yeah, there is the suggestion of something here, for sure, but he holds himself back from going the whole hog with this point. Which makes it a weird one, and slightly out of place IMO. Like he intended to come back to it later, but never did.

MackDe - it's no consolation, of course, but look at the context he's writing this letter in. He's personally under extreme scrutiny in Germany. The headlines there are full of suggestion that there's a lot more to come in terms of his own knowledge of child abusers there and his own inaction in that respect. So this is written very carefully so as not to give rope that could be used to hang himself later on.

The Irish bishops must have been delighted to see the problems in Germany arise...it likely neuters the pope's ability to come down hard on them, lest he himself be found in a similar position to them later.

prinz wrote: »

What he means is that as society and the Church separated a lot of the clergy were caught in a type of "no-mans land" and this led to the problems of cover-up etc, in the end the people who became aware of the abuse didn't satisfactorily deal with the problem through canon law of the Church or civil law of the State and it was left to fester. Society changed, and the Church changed, but the change of the Church was not in tune with the change of society. That the clergy were trying to serve two masters and in the end failed at serving either.

There's a suggestion of a little more than that in what he says there. He gets some sly digs in at the divergence of civil law from canon law. It's clear who, to him, is at fault for that 'rift'. What his actual specific point is there is not entirely clear though IMO. He didn't flesh this out much.

Elenxor

Noffles wrote: »

Utter ****e the whole lot... it's made that long so that people get bored and don't finish it... if they do they'll realise it's just a big load of smoke to hope it all goes away ... ****ing shower of *****.... I'd love to cause a right ****ing row in my local peado den (the church) on a Sunday morning see what the brainwashed plebites would do!!!

We all know what the clergy would do in that situation..
They would have you arrested and charged with causing an Affray under the Law of the Land..

You know, the Law, that's the one that applies to the rest of us citizens,
but not, it would seem to the Clergy!