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Pope's Pastoral Letter

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    #332
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Bugbear for Pope.

    Seriously though, I'd like to think that the Church Hierarchy would listen to it's members but I don't think they work like that. They are great men for telling people to shut up, bow their heads and pray under pain of eternal damnation but not much use for anything else.


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    #333
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    69 wrote: »
    I'd like to think that the Church Hierarchy would listen to it's members but I don't think they work like that. They are great men for telling people to shut up, bow their heads and pray under pain of eternal damnation but not much use for anything else.

    Thats all they do. they have it sussed the b*stards. Keep the Sheep in line with imaginary damnation. The character of O' Brien in Orwell's 1984 says at one point "God is power". This is the hierarchy in a nutshell.


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    #334
    Blueboyd
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Blueboyd


    All this talk about tribunals and canon law makes me to think about Guantanamo Bay. The system outside the system.


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    #335
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    69 wrote: »
    Bugbear for Pope.

    :D
    69 wrote: »
    Seriously though, I'd like to think that the Church Hierarchy would listen to it's members but I don't think they work like that. They are great men for telling people to shut up, bow their heads and pray under pain of eternal damnation but not much use for anything else.

    I tell you what: I believe this is part of the issue

    this mentality of talking-to instead of talking-with, this mentality of delivering the message without having to deal with feedback is one of the things that are weakening my church more than anything: in a social media age you cannot think to be indifferent to the public...it just doesn't work :confused:


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    #336
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    Bugbear wrote: »
    I am catholic.

    I say it so that what follows is not taken out of context: I went to mass yesterday, I listened to the priest reading the letter. I read the letter again today. I read the 22 pages of discussion.

    I'm sorry, it's just not enough. And I say it as a catholic.

    The people, the catholics and the good priests, they all needed more clear signals. They needed:
    - I am firing away bishop 1, 2, and 3. Legal measures will be taken for the cover-up.
    - I am sending to civil authorities all the info I have for their court hearings.
    - I will insert periodical psychological audits from external independent agencies for priests in the seminar and in their office.
    - I will double all the offers that the believer will put in the church's boxes in 2010, and constitute a fund to repay the victims.

    These would have been concrete signals: maybe somebody would have wanted more, maybe somebody would have prefered a boxing match with a bad priest, but at least they would have been concrete signals.

    None of the above, and you leave to face the situation who? The priest.

    And obviously people slay the messenger because they are (for understandable reasons) enraged. Even if the messenger is a good person (priest does not equal paedophile!).

    Why do people do that? Because they are bitter? Because they are crusty communists? Because they have hearts of stone?

    No: simply because they react to the lack of concrete actions.

    I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost and of the prayer to heal and change the heart, but in Ireland, like in a series of other countries, horrible actions were committed: it was necessary to take concrete counteractions of the same intensity, and they were not taken, and this can only make things more difficult for prayer to sink and do its action (I appreciate that what I am saying here is what I believe and I have no intentions of convincing anyone of this last point).

    And priests were left to deliver the "I'm sorry I'm sorry" letter.

    As a catholic I am very disappointed. If I was a victim or family of a victim I would be even more disappointed.

    I suppose you were one of the 20 who walked out of the Pro-Cathedral yesterday?

    It is not for the Pope to specify detailed solutions. The Curia will however intervene directly if the Irish bishops don't sort themselves out. I think the Irish clergy have done immense work over the last decade on the matter of child protection, making apologies and dealing with abuse victims' claims. We are only part of the way along the road and there is much that still needs to be done.

    I foresee a massive national conference of all Irish bishops, priests, deacons and religious. The focus will be on full repentance. Only when we repent can we renew.


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    #337
    Feownah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 87 ✭✭Feownah


    I think it is bizarre that Pope John Paul II has been pimped for sainthood while it was he who was the head of the Church from 1978 to 2005 - surely a timespan where clerical abuse was covered up to a high degree.


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    #338
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    underclass wrote: »
    The focus will be on full repentance.
    Bollox to repentance, how about a little old fashioned smiteing?


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    #339
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    69 wrote: »
    Bollox to repentance, how about a little old fashioned smiteing?

    The civil authorities did that...


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    #340
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    underclass wrote: »
    I suppose you were one of the 20 who walked out of the Pro-Cathedral yesterday?
    So what if he/she did anyway - you throwing that at them, is that your miserable attempt at throwing dirt at them?
    Yea - real Christian like behaviour! :rolleyes:
    Maybe you should start off the repenting...
    underclass wrote: »
    It is not for the Pope to specify detailed solutions.
    Frankly thats bollox. Who is?
    The lower down kitchen hand who washes his dishes?
    The buck stops and starts with him. He is supposed to be the "rock" of the church - about time he (and his predecessors) had started acting like it, instead of just trying to cover their own asses and those doing their canon rule bidding!
    underclass wrote: »
    The Curia will however intervene directly if the Irish bishops don't sort themselves out.
    The cura have done fcuk all now or for decades to solve this problem.
    It didn't start over night - and they bloody know it - and we know they know it.
    What the fcuk is the curia going to do marvellous now all of a sudden - fcuk all!
    underclass wrote: »
    I think the Irish clergy have done immense work over the last decade on the matter of child protection, making apologies and dealing with abuse victims' claims. We are only part of the way along the road and there is much that still needs to be done.
    What EXACTLY have they done besides buried reports, sworn others to silence, used the Irish courts to stop other files/reports from getting into Gardi hands?
    Where is the set-up clinics or paid for therapists for those that were abused?
    There is absolutely more to do and it ain't fcuking prayer! Thats a cheap, miserable, cheapskate, no expense, no more money involved kop-out.
    They want to actual start doing something. They can start by stop dumping "more prayer" schite on us and start doing actual basic practical stuff!
    underclass wrote: »
    I foresee a massive national conference of all Irish bishops, priests, deacons and religious. The focus will be on full repentance. Only when we repent can we renew.
    Whoop-de-fcukin' do!
    Yet another friggin' meeting of prayer. Great fcuklin' help!
    "Only when we repent can we renew." - what a load of useless, meaningless, one minute soundbite PR crap!


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    #341
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    underclass wrote: »
    I suppose you were one of the 20 who walked out of the Pro-Cathedral yesterday?

    I don't understand the remark but no: I didn't walk out of the church till the end of the mass, and I wasn't in any cathedral but in a town church. Don't judge me: you don't know me.
    underclass wrote: »
    It is not for the Pope to specify detailed solutions. The Curia will however intervene directly if the Irish bishops don't sort themselves out. I think the Irish clergy have done immense work over the last decade on the matter of child protection, making apologies and dealing with abuse victims' claims. We are only part of the way along the road and there is much that still needs to be done.

    I appreciate your opinion but I respectfully disagree. Totally disagree.
    Is for the Pope to represent the Church and its position.
    Is for the pope to trace guidelines and give clear directions.

    BTW: I don't dispute any of the good work done by bishops and priests, as clearly remarked in all my posts.
    underclass wrote: »
    I foresee a massive national conference of all Irish bishops, priests, deacons and religious. The focus will be on full repentance. Only when we repent can we renew.

    I foresee it as well.
    I am sure all the catholic faithful people will repent and renew.

    But this is not the issue.

    The issue here is that there is a fact, clear and concrete, documented and related to data.
    This fact claims for a clear, concrete and data related response, and this response cannot come from a future conclave that talks with 10 different heads (each one without the authority to speak "for the RCC") to 5 different media. It should have been provided by the only person that has the authority to speak "for the RCC".

    And it wasn't.


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    #342
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    If there were more people like you in the RCC this whole mess wouldn't exist.

    You must be the "just man" I have heard so much about. I mean that with the greatest respect.


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    #343
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    69 wrote: »
    If there were more people like you in the RCC this whole mess wouldn't exist.

    You must be the "just man" I have heard so much about. I mean that with the greatest respect.

    I'm far from that, and I am not the one to judge the church

    I just would like to be able to face this issue without passion, without all the emotions that are (inevitably) linked to what happened, and deal with it with concrete answers

    I know that sounds a bit "corporate company" but that's what I think the victims need: concrete answers


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    #344
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    Bugbear wrote: »
    I am catholic.
    Bugbear wrote: »
    I don't understand the remark but no: I didn't walk out of the church till the end of the mass, and I wasn't in any cathedral but in a town church. Don't judge me: you don't know me.

    Do you still regard yourself as being in full communion with the Church?


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    #345
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    underclass wrote: »
    Do you still regard yourself as being in full communion with the Church?
    Bigger question: does the Church put the people interests first or their own?


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    #346
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    underclass wrote: »
    Do you still regard yourself as being in full communion with the Church?

    AFAIK one is in full communion with God, not with the church

    If you are asking me if I recognize myself as a catholic I believe my first statement (that you quoted) answered clearly.

    Yes, of course I continue to be a catholic, even with those horrible events. The reason is: being a catholic for me has little to do with pope B16 and a lot to do with the way I (try to) live my religion.

    The fact that members of the catholic church have done horrible things upsets me, as much as it upsets every other normal person, but doesn't make me disown my church. makes me want to do something for the victims.
    The fact that the letter of B16 was too-little-too-late disappoints, me, as I have clarified, but doesn't make me disown my church. Makes me want to change it.

    I don't expect to convince anyone of my beliefs or of my reasons.


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    #347
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    Bugbear wrote: »
    AFAIK one is in full communion with God, not with the church

    If you are asking me if I recognize myself as a catholic I believe my first statement (that you quoted) answered clearly.

    Yes, of course I continue to be a catholic, even with those horrible events. The reason is: being a catholic for me has little to do with pope B16 and a lot to do with the way I (try to) live my religion.

    The fact that members of the catholic church have done horrible things upsets me, as much as it upsets every other normal person, but doesn't make me disown my church. makes me want to do something for the victims.
    The fact that the letter of B16 was too-little-too-late disappoints, me, as I have clarified, but doesn't make me disown my church. Makes me want to change it.

    I don't expect to convince anyone of my beliefs or of my reasons.

    You might want to sit down and have a chat with your local priest. Forgive me if you feel I have been goading you.


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    #348
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    Biggins wrote: »
    Bigger question: does the Church put the people interests first or their own?

    Seeing as you're going to answer a question with another question, I think I'll do the same.

    Does the Irish nation put the people's interests first or the interests of those in power?


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    #349
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    underclass wrote: »
    Seeing as you're going to answer a question with another question, I think I'll do the same.

    Does the Irish nation put the people's interests first or the interests of those in power?

    We elect those in power through open, fair elections, which anyone over the age of 18 can vote in.

    Not QUITE the same with the church.


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    #350
    underclass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭underclass


    mloc wrote: »
    We elect those in power through open, fair elections, which anyone over the age of 18 can vote in.

    Not QUITE the same with the church.

    You talk of "democracy" as if it were the holy grail. George Bush was a big fan of promoting "democracy" now wasn't he?

    Nowhere does the Church claim to be a democracy. There are however certain democratic elements that are useful for decision-making in certain matters. You rise the ranks based on your intellect and your past accomplishments.


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    #351
    ch750536
    Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    Lets not forget that if you choose to be a christian but not a catholic there are a lot of new books you can read that are no longer heretic for you.


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    #352
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bigger question: does the Church put the people interests first or their own?
    underclass wrote: »
    Seeing as you're going to answer a question with another question, I think I'll do the same.

    Does the Irish nation put the people's interests first or the interests of those in power?

    Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely
     John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton
    "Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"
    William Pitt, the Elder

    We that give the power have been betrayed by those we sought to treat us kindly.
    Are we to feel guilty for the offering and the giving of it - or are we to hold fast and see justice regained by those who let us down?
    Your answer I suspect you already know in your heart, the answer to mine goes waiting...


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    #353
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    underclass wrote: »
    You might want to sit down and have a chat with your local priest. Forgive me if you feel I have been goading you.

    As long as he can get the zombie wafer every sunday, isn't that the main thing?


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    #354
    Bugbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bugbear


    underclass wrote: »
    You might want to sit down and have a chat with your local priest.

    I'm not sure to understand what you mean here, however it's the second time you talk about my religion: do you know anything about me? Or how many times I speak to my local priest?
    I don't presume to know anything about one person from 3 phrases in a forum (it would be a bit shallow). Shouldn't we concentrate on the facts rather than getting personal over opinions?
    underclass wrote: »
    Forgive me if you feel I have been goading you.

    forgiven


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    #355
    nakedpimp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭nakedpimp


    Lads this matter can be reduced to nationality. The Vatican is a non-EEA state . Anyone working in Ireland under the authority and citizenship of a non-EEA state needs by law to sign on with their local immigration officer every three months. If they are not complying with our laws then they can be deported. Yes.... I know that these pd's are 'irish' citizens but their choice of loyalty and their position and role in society is solely based on their membership of a non- EEA state and we should as a nation respect that choice and deport them. And when we've done that , let's get rid of some of the yankie nuts too.


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