Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

wild handlin

Hamndegger wrote: »

The only freight that used the line as a whole was sugar beet; this market was closed by the EU and not Irish Rail. Of the other markets you mention, Bell Ferry went bust, IFI closed their plant in Arklow so fertiliser traffic was lost; timber freight trains still run between Ballina and Waterford albeit less frequently given the economic downturn as has bulk cement.

Bagged cement used Mungret - Waterford - Wexford until early 2002 before the service was dispensed with.

Norfolk lines operated Waterford Belview - Limerick Junction - Cork N.Esk liner but was done away with when the Cahir bridge collapsed and didnt return since.

Bulk timber used to run from Millstreet - Limerick Junction - Clonmel, as did bulk timber from Ennis - Limerick - Clonmel.

Bulk cement was dispenced with - like you say due to the downturn in construction, whilst the Shale was also given the boot.

As regards the line closing for definate on the 21st it hardly surprises me considering IE's constant neglect and willpower to get rid of it.

Our man in Havana

They still need to approval of the minister.

Ham'nd'egger

wild handlin wrote: »

Bagged cement used Mungret - Waterford - Wexford until early 2002 before the service was dispensed with.

Norfolk lines operated Waterford Belview - Limerick Junction - Cork N.Esk liner but was done away with when the Cahir bridge collapsed and didnt return since.

Bulk timber used to run from Millstreet - Limerick Junction - Clonmel, as did bulk timber from Ennis - Limerick - Clonmel.

Bulk cement was dispenced with - like you say due to the downturn in construction, whilst the Shale was also given the boot.

As regards the line closing for definate on the 21st it hardly surprises me considering IE's constant neglect and willpower to get rid of it.

I had forgotten about the bagged cement went across the south line (Well the little that went to Wexford) but it was the only flow that used the line between Waterford Rosslare as a whole I was referring to; I know the liner terminal is a little bit down line and the other traffic on the W+L section.

DWCommuter

Haddockman wrote: »

They still need to approval of the minister.

And they'll get it as he's ruled by bean counters anyway.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

P.S. Can anybody tell me what Service Planning Manager Myles McHugh actually does from one end of the year to the next to justify his salary - specifics please.

I'll be very specific. He lobbied internally for the WRC on behalf of WOT along with other IE heads from the west. Its their personal trainset.

DWCommuter

The Grim Reaper approaches.

CÓRAS IOMPAIR ÉIREANN TRANSPORT ACT, 1958 NOTICE AS TO TERMINATION OF TRAIN SERVICES ON THE RAILWAY LINE BETWEEN WATERFORD AND ROSSLARE. Pursuant to section 19 of the Transport Act, 1958, the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann hereby gives notice that:-On the 21st day of July 2010. 1. All week-day Iarnród Éireann services of trains for or...dinary passenger traffic and for merchandise customarily carried by such services operating on the railway line between Waterford and Rosslare will be terminated. 2. As an alternative for passengers in the affected area, Bus Éireann on behalf of the Board will provide on week-days the new and existing road passenger services. Iarnród Éireann requires a contractual approval for this termination of service from the National Transport Authority pursuant to the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009. The Authority is considering that application at present. Geraldine Finucane,Group Secretary,Heuston Station,Dublin 821st May 2010.

Our man in Havana

Iarnród Éireann requires a contractual approval for this termination of service from the National Transport Authority pursuant to the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009. The Authority is considering that application at present.

This is where they could be foiled with some luck.

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

The Grim Reaper approaches.

And not just for the line. I think that we could be witnessing CIE's day of reckoning soon.

Judgement Day

Hungerford wrote: »

And not just for the line. I think that we could be witnessing CIE's day of reckoning soon.

Can't come soon enough. I would prefer to have no railway system than pay hundreds of millions to CIE/IE to kill it off by stealth and stupidity.

wild handlin

Hungerford wrote: »

And not just for the line. I think that we could be witnessing CIE's day of reckoning soon.

I doubt it to be honest.

What will replace it?

Who in govt. wants to (and will get the support to) abolish CIE?

What would the public rather have? Cheap ticket prices for trains being run by a semi public/private company or expensive ticket prices with a private company?

Who is going to pay €100+ Cork - Dublin return if it becomes private. Who is going to pay €60 return Dublin - Longford or €40 return Dublin - Kildare?

I doubt it will happen any time soon, sorry to busrt the bubble....!!

Hungerford

wild handlin wrote: »

I doubt it to be honest.

What I suspect will happen is that it will be broken up but the component parts will remain in state hands. Its days will be numbered if FG or Labour take office.

You have both parties Transport Spokespeople banging down on the company's doors and there are several journalists hitting a raw nerve with their allegations of waste and fraud judging by Barry Kenny's recent bunker mentality. And I suspect there could be more to come, particularly with Kenny running around baiting its critics.

Stonewolf

The whole issue of rail privatisation is very very tricky and quite hard to get right. Frankly, I don't believe Irish politicians have the experience and knowledge to do it properly and they certainly don't have the time with all that constituency work they have to do (why do you think the Dail is always empty).

I recently read a book that ventured very shallowly into the matter and I can say it's not as clear cut as it might seem. Railways definitely do not benefit from being government operated CIE style but exactly how private they should be depends greatly on the network in question.

One of the bigger issues and quite pertinent to this debate is that of funding. Railways are an entity that benefits from stable funding, taking a very long term financial outlook. Short term, piecemeal funding tends to make railways quite dysfunctional, this is the very model that a wholly government funded railway tends to operate under though as it is subject to the whims of whoever happens to be in office at the time. One of the major arguments in favour of privatisation is that the railway can become a master of its own funding and thus arrange it in terms of focused, long term goals.

icdg

Stonewolf wrote: »

One of the bigger issues and quite pertinent to this debate is that of funding. Railways are an entity that benefits from stable funding, taking a very long term financial outlook. Short term, piecemeal funding tends to make railways quite dysfunctional, this is the very model that a wholly government funded railway tends to operate under though as it is subject to the whims of whoever happens to be in office at the time. One of the major arguments in favour of privatisation is that the railway can become a master of its own funding and thus arrange it in terms of focused, long term goals.

The experience of privatisation on British Rail was that the railway became **more** dependant on Government funding. In Railtrack's case, Government funding no longer needed to cover merely the operational costs of the railway, but also to give Railtrack enough of a profit to pay out dividends to shareholders. Railtrack never made money in its own right despite sitting on one of the biggest property banks in Great Britain.

In the case of the TOCs, they are more dependant on Government funding than ever. The short term nature of most of their contracts leads them to promise big things up front (such as new rolling stock) but run things down towards the end of their contract. Most of them couldn't survive without Government funding. And the British government has a nasty habit of not renewing their contracts (who's left of the original 25? South West Trains and Virgin West Coast are the only two the come to mind that have never changed ownership through either a buy-out or losing their franchise), which makes you question what they are doing right.

Only the frieght sector makes money. And the biggest (by far) freight operator in Britain is ultimately owned by the German government.

I wouldn't hold privatisation as panacha to CIE's problems. Besides, TUPE means the same people would be working for the railway no matter who owned it.

dermo88

Privatisation works in honest countries such as Germany, Sweden or Denmark. However, no matter what Government is in charge in Ireland, they would end up beholden to corporate cute hoors.

The result is that it go under a competitive tendering process in theory. The reality is, that it would go to the best 'friend' of the minister in charge on the day. Of course, make an allegation, I could get sued under Irelands draconian libel laws. However, excluding libel, the dogs in the street know the truth.

The day will come when CIE needs to be faced down and smashed. I predicted it back in 2002 when Brendan Ogle engaged in that strike. Personally speaking, when it came to the ILDA strike, I would have rounded them up (secretly) and had them 'dealt' with, by fair means and foul. Then I would have fired the CIE Management.

The recession is an opportunity to provoke a strike. It takes only six months. Cut the subsidy, cut the services, wait six months, get rid of the current bunch of chancers, and then revive it under new contracts. Make it squeal if need be. Use it as an example that the Government is in charge, not the Unions. Use it as an example that when a representative of the shareholders ASKS for a meeting, you turn up and ANSWER.

The problem in Ireland is that we are too fair. Its a symptom of our colonial past. Its good at the best of times, but pernicious at the worst of times, when severe economic problems need to be solved. I am all for the rights of workers, until faced where there is an ineffective management and a disillusioned demoralised workforce, what else can be done?

The problem in Ireland is that Brendan Ogle is now in senior management at the ESB. The same thing occured with John Hynes in An Post in the 1980's. The idea of "worker directors" on semi-state company boards is laudable in an ideal world, but consider these two trouble making muppets. They sang "we'll keep the red flag flying", got promoted, and hit the trough fairly quickly. The place for the pair of them was the dole queue.

This is the same country that had Liam Lawlor on the Dail ethics commitee.....a bit like putting Pol Pot in charge of Human Rights. Of course, he got bumped off in Moscow before he could spill the beans on everyone, and if he had, the property crash would have occured sooner, and saved Ireland the pain it suffers now.

This is the same country that tells us "we are in it together". You are'nt, and you can stay if you wish, but the way things are going, floggings will continue until morale improves.

Its nothing less than a joke.

westtip

+1 brilliant post.

Stonewolf

icdg wrote: »

The experience of privatisation on British Rail was that the railway became **more** dependant on Government funding. In Railtrack's case, Government funding no longer needed to cover merely the operational costs of the railway, but also to give Railtrack enough of a profit to pay out dividends to shareholders. Railtrack never made money in its own right despite sitting on one of the biggest property banks in Great Britain.

In the case of the TOCs, they are more dependant on Government funding than ever. The short term nature of most of their contracts leads them to promise big things up front (such as new rolling stock) but run things down towards the end of their contract. Most of them couldn't survive without Government funding. And the British government has a nasty habit of not renewing their contracts (who's left of the original 25? South West Trains and Virgin West Coast are the only two the come to mind that have never changed ownership through either a buy-out or losing their franchise), which makes you question what they are doing right.

Only the frieght sector makes money. And the biggest (by far) freight operator in Britain is ultimately owned by the German government.

I wouldn't hold privatisation as panacha to CIE's problems. Besides, TUPE means the same people would be working for the railway no matter who owned it.

I didn't advocate privatisation UK style, though many here seem to. The point I was trying to get at is that privatisation is something that requires striking a very fine balance. The railways need to have some level of government influence/control but also need to have a level of autonomy and sovereignty. The difficulty is in striking the right balance for the given network and as an excellent example (of said difficulty) we can hold up the UK experience.

Compare and contrast the UK and the US. In the US, railroads are strong private corporations, each a self contained system in its own right. Most of them abandoned passenger services decades ago (Amtrak was a vehicle to enable the US railroads divest themselves of their public service obligations) concentrating almost entirely on freight.

There's more than one way to have private railways.

Hungerford

As an interesting aside, it appears that CIE may have been too clever when drawing up their closure note. It only specifies the withdrawal of 'weekday services' - what about the ones on Saturday?

Our man in Havana

Saturday is a weekday service.

I am surprised that IE have not opted to operate a parliamentary service on the line to avoid official closure procedures. A Saturday only service would suit that down to the ground.

Hungerford

Haddockman wrote: »

Saturday is a weekday service.

I am surprised that IE have not opted to operate a parliamentary service on the line to avoid official closure procedures. A Saturday only service would suit that down to the ground.

Any dictionary I have ever seen defines Monday to Friday as weekdays. Remember, when you are talking about closure orders, it is the precise legal definition of such a term that counts.

It would be quite amusing if CIE weren't able to shut the line fully because of some such screw-up.

Cookie_Monster

if its a monday to saturday timetable and differing on a Sunday then Sat would be a weekday service to me.

lord lucan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if its a monday to saturday timetable and differing on a Sunday then Sat would be a weekday service to me.

There's no Sunday service anyways iirc.

dowlingm

BE and IE timetable Saturday within the same tables as Monday-Friday. I doubt that such a distinction is anything more than cosmetic.

I had a quick look at the new schedule on RUI - BE are claiming their usual Campile bus can leave 10min later but arrive 5min earlier in Waterford - interesting.

As for the eastern stops, they seem to extending a bus from New Ross back to Rosslare to pick up in Wellington Bridge, but routing it via the bypass to WIT and then back into town.

The reality is however that there is no IE component to the service - the BE services do not serve the train station. What should have happened is that IE should have been allowed to run their own buses to Rosslare to preserve their catchment.

KC61

Given there are no trains to connect into from the morning commuter services what would be the point of serving the rail station - the station is on the opposite side of the river to the city centre and WIT.

dowlingm

KC61-presumably the Campile service would be passing the front door of the train station (as opposed to the Wellington Bridge which is likely to route via the bypass) - this is what is indicated by the proposed timetable. So that takes care of the route argument.

Your point on what service a morning bus would connect to to either drop off or pick up and bring toward WIT/WRH is pertinent. At present there is no westbound service between 0640-1230, no northbound between 0740-1100 and no inbound from Dublin/Carlow/Kilkenny before 0945.

However, the price of IE being allowed to shut the South Wexford should be for one or more of these gaps to be filled by the set formerly employed from Rosslare, retaining capacity in the southeast but serving larger catchments than Wellingtonbridge. Such an arrangement could take the form of an inbound commuter from Clonmel or Carlow arriving approx 0830 and/or an outbound departing approx 0845 to fill either the north or westbound gaps indicated above - which could then be served by the "replacement" bus service.

Hungerford

I thought that this Green Party response from their local councillor in Wexford posted up on a railusers.ie was worth quoting up here in full. It's certainly a contender for bizarre response of the week. What do others think of it?

Ciaran,

I was flabbergasted myself at the thought of the Wexford to Rosslare being axed.

I presume you refer to yesterdays announcement of the closure of the Waterford to Rosslare Harbour rail line.

Ciaran, the Green Party has 2 Ministers at the Cabinet table, neither of them with a Transport brief.

Just think of how much policy you could pass in a committee with those type of numbers.

The tragedy has been happening for many years when the electorate returned, election after election,

some of the most inept politicians this country has ever seen. The Green Party condemned decisions

made by these crooks and since taking office has punched well above their weight bringing some

of the most visionary planning, energy and building legislation this country has ever seen.

I personally have lobbied our own Ministers, Irish Rail and the NTA on the Waterford Line issue.

What have you done ?

Is mise,

Danny Forde

Cookie_Monster

I personally have lobbied our own Ministers, Irish Rail and the NTA on the Waterford Line issue.

What have you done ?

Is mise,

Danny Forde

Well done Danny, just about managing to do your job there, why have you not mentioned any of thing to the DoT or Transport minister though?

Also nicely done throwing the snide remark in there. I would assume he (Ciaran?) has done his job more professionally than you anyway. He may even have voted for you in the first place:eek:

invinciblePRSTV

Whats wrong with the Green Party Cllrs response? he makes a simple point, the Green Party in Government still has limited power to affect change in certain areas, do you think he has direct access to the MoT or something?

Cookie_Monster

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Whats wrong with the Green Party Cllrs response? he makes a simple point, the Green Party in Government still has limited power to affect change in certain areas, do you think he has direct access to the MoT or something?

jesus, I can email or write to the minister ffs, and have done a number of times, as with other ministers. it not that difficult.

As a public representative that reply is wholly unprofessional too.

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

KC61-presumably the Campile service would be passing the front door of the train station (as opposed to the Wellington Bridge which is likely to route via the bypass) - this is what is indicated by the proposed timetable. So that takes care of the route argument.

Your point on what service a morning bus would connect to to either drop off or pick up and bring toward WIT/WRH is pertinent. At present there is no westbound service between 0640-1230, no northbound between 0740-1100 and no inbound from Dublin/Carlow/Kilkenny before 0945.

However, the price of IE being allowed to shut the South Wexford should be for one or more of these gaps to be filled by the set formerly employed from Rosslare, retaining capacity in the southeast but serving larger catchments than Wellingtonbridge. Such an arrangement could take the form of an inbound commuter from Clonmel or Carlow arriving approx 0830 and/or an outbound departing approx 0845 to fill either the north or westbound gaps indicated above - which could then be served by the "replacement" bus service.

The price CIE/IE should be forced to pay for closing the South Wexford line should be their abolition. Minister Dempsey is gone at the next election anyway. Your suggestion about tinkering about with other services as a sop for the closure is a total red herring of which even Barry Kenny would be proud. What in heavens name do you think is next in the CIE/IE firing line but Waterford/Limerick Junction, so why would they do anything to improve services on that line?

dowlingm

JD - I was trying to stay within the realm of the possible, and remember I said "should". As for Limerick Junction-Limerick being next line - why do you think I suggested they be forced to adopt a service pattern which might just contradict their sneaky plans?

The notion of CIE abolition is very well, I would also "abolish" CIE as it is currently constituted, but what would you replace it with?

As for Danny Forde - he should have told Ciaran Cuffe that he will call for his deselection as a candidate for the next Dail Election, since people who won't stand up for sustainable transport shouldn't get to call themselves Green.