Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Stephen15

Carawaystick wrote: »

The safety rules here say double bore

Could you not build a much wider tunnel allowing for double track. I would imagine it would be cheaper than building two separate tunnels but I could be wrong or is this even possible?

murphaph

Grandeeod wrote: »

I agree completely. I am of the opinion that this latest Metro plan is nothing more than a spoof job.

Well given that up to now 100% of the plans for any underground railways in Dublin have been spoof jobs I'd tend to say the odds favour your assessment!

Shn99

The day I see a tunnel boring machine begin work will be the day I believe the notion known as “MetroLink”

AngryLips

MJohnston wrote: »

No shared running at all, and there will be very little parallel running too (basically only in that short Ranelagh to SSG section)

Poor Brides Glen Green Line Luas, orphaned at such a young age.

spacetweek wrote: »

If the tunnel portal is at Milltown which seems likely

Great, just what this well-served corridor needed, even more public transport infrastructure serving much the same route

LXFlyer

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ok good point, although I think a Rathfarmham, Terenure, harolds cross would be better

Where is the available roadspace to allow LUAS to deliver reliable and fast journey times on that route?

Answer - it’s not there. That’s why that proposed route was abandoned.

The only solution for that area frankly is an underground metro.

Bray Head

LXFlyer wrote: »

Where is the available roadspace to allow LUAS to deliver reliable and fast journey times on that route?

Answer - it’s not there. That’s why that proposed route was abandoned.

The only solution for that area frankly is an underground metro.

A very detailed feasibility study was done on this a number of years ago. Not sure if it is still available online.

There is simply not enough road space without getting rid of most bus and car space, specifically through Terenure.

Metro is the only thing feasible. That said you don't have big trip generators (university, hospital, shopping centre) on the route. It is mainly medium-density housing.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

A very detailed feasibility study was done on this a number of years ago. Not sure if it is still available online.

There is simply not enough road space without getting rid of most bus and car space, specifically through Terenure.

Metro is the only thing feasible. That said you don't have big trip generators (university, hospital, shopping centre) on the route. It is mainly medium-density housing.

You also have the slowest bus speeds of any QBC in the city on both the Templeogue and Rathfarnham QBCs.

Bus frequency along those QBCs is high and the loadings are also high - remember that they are generating trips all along the QBC from the outer areas to the city centre and there is a large mix of local, citybound, and cross-city traffic along those corridors. There are shopping centres, hospitals and universities at the extremes of the corridors (Tallaght and City Centre) too.

The problem is that the buses get impeded by the lack of priority for much of the route, and also by car traffic blocking the bus lanes - the bus lane north of the Dodder Bridge on Rathfarnham Road is just ignored every day, traffic merges into the bus lane on Harold's Cross Road approaching the canal bridge well in advance of the end of the bus lane, and the inbound bus lanes along the South Circular Road and Harrington Street are flagrantly ignored by cars on a virtually daily basis meaning buses get slowed up even more.

There is very little that can be done to improve bus priority without a very large amount of CPO activity, which BusConnects may propose, but I remain unconvinced will deliver.

Metro is the only solution for the area between the two LUAS lines.

medoc

While looking through the RTÉ Archives for something completely unconnected I came across this. Metro to the Airport by 2007.....

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0731/894247-metro-to-dublin-airport/

If only!

Sam Russell

medoc wrote: »

While looking through the RTÉ Archives for something completely unconnected I came across this. Metro to the Airport by 2007.....

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2017/0731/894247-metro-to-dublin-airport/

If only!

Listening to Marion Fenucane programme just now.

Colm McCarthy on about the waste of money that Metrolink will be - '€3 thousand million - it's a lot of money. Dublin Airport is already served by buses - yada yada yada - there is aleady a Luas line to Sandyford - yada yada '

Clearly he has never been on a Luas, certainly not at busy times. Also, I would think he has never travelled on a bus from Dublin Airport.

Mind you he has form on this having opposed every rail project since Dardis opened the Kingstown to Westland Row line in 1856.

Why do they have the likes of him spouting nonsense.

Sierra Oscar

Sam Russell wrote: »

Listening to Marion Fenucane programme just now.

Colm McCarthy on about the waste of money that Metrolink will be - '€3 thousand million - it's a lot of money. Dublin Airport is already served by buses - yada yada yada - there is aleady a Luas line to Sandyford - yada yada '

Clearly he has never been on a Luas, certainly not at busy times. Also, I would think he has never travelled on a bus from Dublin Airport.

Mind you he has form on this having opposed every rail project since Dardis opened the Kingstown to Westland Row line in 1856.

Why do they have the likes of him spouting nonsense.

He also has a big writeup in the Sunday Independent on Metro Link and how Dublin 'doesn't need another Luas'. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure why we attribute so much clout behind McCarthy. This is the guy who spent years telling us all that renewable energy is a waste of time.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

Listening to Marion Fenucane programme just now.

Colm McCarthy on about the waste of money that Metrolink will be - '€3 thousand million - it's a lot of money. Dublin Airport is already served by buses - yada yada yada - there is aleady a Luas line to Sandyford - yada yada '

Clearly he has never been on a Luas, certainly not at busy times. Also, I would think he has never travelled on a bus from Dublin Airport.

Mind you he has form on this having opposed every rail project since Dardis opened the Kingstown to Westland Row line in 1856.

Why do they have the likes of him spouting nonsense.

Why are cranks like him entertained all the God damn time in this country, on national airwaves???

salmocab

I said recently around here that I think public perception around the metro is that it’s a link for the airport to the city with some other stops thrown in as opposed to the airport being a happy extra. This clown will have people believe Dubs are getting 3 bn to get to the airport.

BowSideChamp

Stephen15 wrote: »

Could you not build a much wider tunnel allowing for double track. I would imagine it would be cheaper than building two separate tunnels but I could be wrong or is this even possible?

Barcelona's Line 9 has both tracks and the stations contained within a single tunnel.

Sam Russell

We have the longest trams in Europe (well within a metre) and it cannot cope with the passenger numbers, and we cannot increase frequency, so we buy buses - is that what Colm McCarthy is saying?

The Port Tunnel was quoted as a tunnel to the Airport but it is an extension of the M50 to take HGVs off the city centre and the Quays. It is a choice of the NTA/TII to toll it at a level to keep private cars out of it.

He also said the Airport has the largest bus station in Ireland - but Aircoach and Dublin Bus do not use it. It is also not managed as a real bus station would be.

I wonder what he is an expert in - it certainly is not public transport.

lawred2

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Barcelona's Line 9 has both tracks and the stations contained within a single tunnel.

Simple and clever..

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

London and New York have two of most extensive urban rail networks in the world. It would be near unavoidable at this stage to have lines that don't travel parallel for some distance.

Dublin on the other hand...

I used London as an example most Irish people might be familiar with. But if you want examples from cities with a similar size to Dublin, then look at Amsterdam or Prague and you will see plenty of examples where a Metro parallels a tram line for a km or two.

It really is very common in European cities with dense and intensive public transport networks. It is only natural that, that occurs as you approach the city center, similar to how dozens of Dublin Bus routes end up paralleling each other in the city center and hell even further out on the core routes into the city like the Swords Road, etc.

Normally cities have built tram lines first and then when they become too congested built somewhat parallel underground Metros.

However they don't rip up the tram lines then, they usually continue to be intensively used but with a slightly different focus and customer base.

Metros usually have stations positioned further apart, while trams usually have more frequent stops, so they each offer a slightly different but complementary service. e.g. You get the Metro into the city from the suburbs and then transfer onto a tram for the last km to your office.

If we end following the European norm (which I suspect we will) then not only will we not be digging up tram lines, but we will likely be laying even more almost parallel (e.g. Lucan line down Dawson Street) and that we will see far more lines criss-crossing across the city as is very common throughout Europe.

Also think that we could see extensions going in different directions.

For instance, we could see the Luas continue to go to Charelmont/Ranelagh or we could see it change direction at SSG and head down Lesson St, etc. Lots of possibilities.

Once we have Metro, we will see capacity opened up on Luas for use in different ways, complementing the Metro.

prunudo

"Once we have Metro, we will see capacity opened up on Luas for use in different ways, complementing the Metro"

Colm McCarthy won't be having any of your sensible talk.

Stephen15

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Barcelona's Line 9 has both tracks and the stations contained within a single tunnel.

Yeah that could be done it is a simple and effective technique. I was just saying that another alternative to twin bore would be wider tunnels that allow for double track which would also alleviate the need to build a twin bore bore if our safety don't allow a two storey tunnel.

Muahahaha

McCarthy is on record a few months back as saying that we should scrap the Metro and instead spend the money on an outer orbital motorway past the M50. His economic views are very neo-libertarian but yet completely contradictory- he absolutely despises subsidised public transport and he has always derided any talk of investment in rail as a result. McCarthys neo-libertarian idea is that everyone should pay fully for their own transport, i.e. we should all be in cars. What he fails to see is that building more motorways is actually massively subsidising the private motorist. He must well know this but he chooses to ignore it.

The reason why this Metro has been planned for decades yet remains unbuilt is because politicians in FF and FG have been listening and believing the likes of McCarthy for far too long. During the Celtic Tiger there was billions washing around and still the Metro was not built but billions flooded into motorways, some of which are under capacity with the State now paying subsidies to the the toll operators, its pure madness.

As a result of the policies that McCarthy espouses we are now faced with congested roads where commuting for many is a living hell. He is a dinosaur and if politicians keep listening to him then we are doomed to more of the same.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yeah that could be done it is a simple and effective technique. I was just saying that another alternative to twin bore would be wider tunnels that allow for double track which would also alleviate the need to build a twin bore bore if our safety don't allow a two storey tunnel.

Looking at the Port Tunnel, there is enough room to have two tracks side be side, with maybe a wall between them. A railway line takes up about the same width as a single carriageway on a road. Add a barrier and that should suffice.

The PT was built for about €1 billion, and that was for 18 km of tunnel, so a Metro, if using the same tunnel structure could go from the airport to Sandyford (or anywhere on the M50) for that amount of tunnel. Of course, stations, track and rolling stock would be extra.

jd

Muahahaha wrote: »

As a result of the policies that McCarthy espouses we are now faced with congested roads where commuting for many is a living hell. He is a dinosaur and if politicians keep listening to him then we are doomed to more of the same.

Or as someone who knows put it

https://twitter.com/BarbsMcCarthy/status/919509646045564928

fly_agaric

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Why are cranks like him entertained all the God damn time in this country, on national airwaves???

He's an economist. Along with lawyers (and possibly bankers) they are fonts of wisdom on absolutely everything. We should heed their wise words!

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

We have the longest trams in Europe (well within a metre) and it cannot cope with the passenger numbers, and we cannot increase frequency, so we buy buses - is that what Colm McCarthy is saying?

The Port Tunnel was quoted as a tunnel to the Airport but it is an extension of the M50 to take HGVs off the city centre and the Quays. It is a choice of the NTA/TII to toll it at a level to keep private cars out of it.

He also said the Airport has the largest bus station in Ireland - but Aircoach and Dublin Bus do not use it. It is also not managed as a real bus station would be.

I wonder what he is an expert in - it certainly is not public transport.

To be fair there is only one 55m tram in service - it's a bit early to be making a general comment that the Green Line cannot cope once those trams are all in service.

The problem is it was (disgracefully in my view) launched without the new trams being delivered, and the previous excellent reliability has been decimated since the extension was opened.

As for the airport, Aircoach and Dublin Bus Airlink 747 and 757 pick up from in front of the terminal at T1 and T2 (which I'm sure is what he is referring to), and they can do that because they pay more for that privilege. I'm assuming CMcC isn't aware of that. Dublin Bus local services use the main "bus station" behind the T1 carpark.

The bus station at Dublin Airport is woeful in terms of facilities for passengers waiting - no proper waiting room with departure screens showing all operators. It's appalling to be honest.

As for Mr McCarthy, I take little or no heed of what he says about public transport - he has a complete aversion to anything rail based. The problem is that he has the ear of the Department of Finance which can cause issues!

marno21

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be fair there is only one 55m tram in service - it's a bit early to be making a general comment that the Green Line cannot cope.


The problem is it was (disgracefully in my view) launched without the new trams being delivered, and the previous excellent reliability has been decimated since the extension was opened.


Aircoach and Dublin Bus Airlink pick up from in front of the terminal at T1 and T2, because they pay more for that privilege. I'm assuming CMcC isn't aware of that. Dublin Bus local services use the main "bus station" behind the T1 carpark.


The bus station at Dublin Airport is woeful in terms of facilities for passengers waiting - no proper waiting room with departure screens showing all operators. It's appalling to be honest.


As for Mr McCarthy, I take little or no heed of what he says about public transport - he has a complete aversion to anything rail based. The problem is that he has the ear of the Department of Finance which can cause issues!

By the time the Metro is in place there will be severe capacity constraints. General increase in usage along with the Cherrywood development and more uptake on the new Cross City line. It's good planning and hopefully this time it's implemented

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

By the time the Metro is in place there will be severe capacity constraints. General increase in usage along with the Cherrywood development and more uptake on the new Cross City line. It's good planning and hopefully this time it's implemented

Absolutely agree on that.

dubhthach

almost 40 years ago!


I imagine we might be seeing similiar headlines about 'Metro Link' and 'Dart Underground' in another 40 years.

lawred2

dubhthach wrote: »

almost 40 years ago!


I imagine we might be seeing similiar headlines about 'Metro Link' and 'Dart Underground' in another 40 years.

That's depressing

That 200m would have been paid back at least ten fold by now in economic development

spacetweek

I assume that's the original DART plan rather than anything Metro related?
The tunnel they're referring to is an earlier version of DART underground.

dubhthach

spacetweek wrote: »

I assume that's the original DART plan rather than anything Metro related?
The tunnel they're referring to is an earlier version of DART underground.

DRRTS study from 1975 yes, it included a link from Temple Bar to Ballymun with onward possible extension to Dublin Airport. Basically all proposals since (Dart, Luas etc.) are based on the template of DRRTS study, though obviously Green line was done as light rail and not a dedicated bus route (they didn't want to annoy Tod Andrews at time). The original DRRTS plan would have had the line to Tallaght as 'Dart' standard branching off existing 'GS&WR' line into Heuston.

There would also have been a dedicated Dart branch in Blanchardstown, which would have used the Broadstone line and gone underground around Grangegorman to access 'central station' in Temple Bar.

murphaph

It's enough to make you cry. I'm 40 this year so about as old as that article and I wouldn't be surprised if I got to 80 and still no underground had been built. The people could have it if they made it an election issue.