Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

MJohnston

murphaph wrote: »

It's enough to make you cry. I'm 40 this year so about as old as that article and I wouldn't be surprised if I got to 80 and still no underground had been built. The people could have it if they made it an election issue.

At least this time we only have about a year left before we find out whether it's a runner or not.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

It's enough to make you cry. I'm 40 this year so about as old as that article and I wouldn't be surprised if I got to 80 and still no underground had been built. The people could have it if they made it an election issue.

I'm 6 years older and I cry a lot over this! I remember attending an expo in the RDS around 1983, DART was on the way and we all thought an underground was to follow. Yes we hadn't a pot to piss in back then, but after those 40 years you speak of and the boom days that followed, its unbelievable that we are still here talking about it. No doubt we will most likely be still talking about it in 40 years time. The facts to back that up are freely available online, but only if you are interested in reading it. Its a shocking state of affairs. Here we go yet again with another plan, that most likely won't be delivered.

wakka12

God thats crazy about the news article. Makes me wonder if the green line luas would even exist if it wasn't for the already laid out route by georgian city planners

FunkyDa2

wakka12 wrote: »

God thats crazy about the news article. Makes me wonder if the green line luas would even exist if it wasn't for the already laid out route by georgian city planners

Do you mean these guys?...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Streets_Commission

jd

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm 6 years older and I cry a lot over this!

Ah jaysus you're 6 years younger than me. I had visions of an auld lad sitting on a park bench with his mutt beside him (sorry)..

I wouldn't be surprised if they extend the luas out to Finglas before this is near completion..

MJohnston

I think this is the most favourable atmosphere, short of the absolute height of the boom, under which Metro could be successfully built, and it's why I'm quite optimistic about it this time around. Reasons why I think this:

+ Brexit has put big pressure on the government from multinational corporations with lots of money to spend in Ireland about both office space and residential space.
+ The homelessness crisis, and the more general housing supply drought, is one of the biggest disasters facing this current government, and is more critical than it has possibly ever been in the history of the state.
+ Some people might not care too much about homelessness in a real sense, but there's hardly a person in Dublin who doesn't care about housing availability.
+ Related to all the above, the government is already putting out a lot of messaging that indicates that they intend to position Metro Link as a solution for housing availability. This is fairly smart, it immediately gives the project a hugely positive spin that combats ideas like it just being an airport link, or that it's just some white elephant. It also mostly gets the media and the public onside, which is really important.
+ There's some other minor details to consider too - Leo and Paschal were both Transport ministers at one point, and certainly Donohoe from all he's said sees it as a potential crowning achievement, it's certainly something both of them have been very vocal in promising to various constituencies over the years. That's a big difference from the likes of Enda who clearly had no interest in it.
+ Additionally, the only real alternative to the current government is a FF one, and they've been bullish on Metro in the past, which at the very least should ensure they won't try and hold it up. The only reason I can see for them not continuing it as a project if they should come into power (which doesn't look too likely as it stands) is that they'd want to give it a redesign so that it's their project.

Short of another recession, I'm feeling fairly confident about Metro Link's prospects.

strassenwo!f

It has been mentioned several times in the last few days on this thread, and many times earlier, that it would be preferable to build the metro on the Southside towards the southwest of the city, to open up other areas to efficient public transport.

I wholeheartedly agree with this view.

It has been established by official studies that there is no suitable LUAS corridor available towards areas like Rathmines, Terenure, Templeogue, and so forth. These areas will need to be served by a metro.

It seems to me that the most efficient time to plan for that is before or while there is a tunnel boring machine in the ground, building a line between the city and the airport/Swords, and the time to implement that plan is when it has done its work on the Northside and through the city centre.

There are two reasons for this.

Firstly, it would make better use of the machine than a short hop under the canal to Ranelagh or Beechwood, or wherever, to connect with the overland Green Line route. We also don't know what effect the new big trams will eventually have on the capacity issues on the current Green Line LUAS.

Secondly, it is my considered opinion, based largely on having lived for some lengths of time in two cities which are broadly of Dublin's size, namely Munich and Frankfurt, that Dublin will also eventually need two metro lines. Munich has certainly got full use out of two and makes good - but not wonderful - use of its third U-Bahn line, and Frankfurt might possibly have stopped at two. Dublin is broadly in the same bracket.

Both of those cities have a largely one-change system, and I can't see how you are ever going to create a similarly efficient network in Dublin, with one change on the metro, if you start by building a directly north-south metro line linking Sandyford with Swords and the Airport and leaving the South-West and North-West of the city to fend for themselves.

A North (Swords/Airport) to South-West line, via the city, and a South-East to North-West line, via the city, interchanging at somewhere like St. Stephen's Green, now that would make sense to me, if you want to build something approximating the one-change option available in other European cities of a similar size.

That would definitely make sense to me. The current plan, outlined during the week, will probably prevent such a sensible system ever happening.

donvito99

strassenwo!f wrote: »

That would definitely make sense to me. The current plan, outlined during the week, will probably prevent such a sensible system ever happening.

Eh no it won't. As was repeatedly pointed out to you in the other thread, nothing precludes such a proposed alignment in future. The Green Line was literally designed with this weeks plan in mind. You somehow think that actually building a Metro in Dublin precludes another Metro in Dublin from ever happening??

loyatemu

didn't the original 90s CIE Luas plan propose Sandyford to the Airport, underground in the City Centre, before it was canned by Mary O'Rourke? So we're basically back to square one.

re: shared running. I get the concept of people changing to another mode, but 80% (at least) of passengers south of Sandyford currently are going to the City Centre. It would be a very unpopular development, logistically difficult at Sandyford, and it's hard to see how it would result in a quicker journey time. What's the problem with shared running - is the Metro rolling stock likely to be significantly different to the Luas (different platform heights say)?

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The current plan, outlined during the week, will probably prevent such a sensible system ever happening.

This is an insane POV that you've stated over and over on this forum, while also ignoring all the competent responses put to you about it that refute that idea.

The first point you ignore is the comparison between these two add-ons to the "Metro North" section (ie. the tunnel that ends at St Stephen's Green):
a) A short, 800m-or-so extension to the tunnel with no extra underground stations that would connect SSG to the existing Green Line at Ranelagh. The Green Line south of here would be very easily upgraded to Metro standard with minor engineering work, as far as Sandyford. This would cost in the range of the low hundreds of millions of Euro as an addition.
b) A long, 8km-or-so, fully tunnelled extension of the north tunnel, with potentially ten or so additional excavated underground stations, in a path towards the south-west of the city. This would easily cost in the range of billions of Euro as an addition.

One is a triviality of relative expense, the other is potentially more expensive than the original Metro North plan.

While I certainly agree that the southwest of the city requires an underground transport link, pitting it as an option against the south Green Line upgrade is just pure la-la land fantasy.

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

didn't the original 90s CIE Luas plan propose Sandyford to the Airport, underground in the City Centre, before it was canned by Mary O'Rourke? So we're basically back to square one.

re: shared running. I get the concept of people changing to another mode, but 80% (at least) of passengers south of Sandyford currently are going to the City Centre. It would be a very unpopular development, logistically difficult at Sandyford, and it's hard to see how it would result in a quicker journey time. What's the problem with shared running - is the Metro rolling stock likely to be significantly different to the Luas (different platform heights say)?

Different platform heights are likely (we don't know the exact details yet, but going off of previous plans, I'd say yes). But more importantly, the frequency of Metro is planned to be way higher than anything that would work if the track was shared with Luas trams. And Metro should be a good bit faster too. It would compromise the whole point of doing the Green Line upgrade, as the Metros would just operate as trams while sharing the running.

But, I think this is a problem that won't be a problem; as mentioned the frequency of Metro Link will be really high - I think I saw a 3 minute figure mentioned - which means passengers arriving on the Luas from south of Sandyford won't have to worry about long transfer times, it should be a simple case of stepping out of a tram and walking onto a Metro. Also, people are probably thinking about this in the non-integrated terms of other Dublin transport, but this will have ticketing completely integrated with the Luas (and perhaps by 2027 we might have integrated ticketing across all modes anyway), so you won't have to worry about a tag-off-on-off situation.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

This is an insane POV that you've stated over and over on this forum, while also ignoring all the competent responses put to you about it that refute that idea.

The first point you ignore is the comparison between these two add-ons to the "Metro North" section (ie. the tunnel that ends at St Stephen's Green):
a) A short, 800m-or-so extension to the tunnel with no extra underground stations that would connect SSG to the existing Green Line at Ranelagh. The Green Line south of here would be very easily upgraded to Metro standard with minor engineering work, as far as Sandyford. This would cost in the range of the low hundreds of millions of Euro as an addition.
b) A long, 8km-or-so, fully tunnelled extension of the north tunnel, with potentially ten or so additional excavated underground stations, in a path towards the south-west of the city. This would easily cost in the range of billions of Euro as an addition.

One is a triviality of relative expense, the other is potentially more expensive than the original Metro North plan.

While I certainly agree that the southwest of the city requires an underground transport link, pitting it as an option against the south Green Line upgrade is just pure la-la land fantasy.

Could you give us some idea of how you would envisage metro lines serving the southwest of the city and the northwest of the city tying in with this proposed metro route, giving Dublin the one-change metro system which is enjoyed by many other cities in Europe?

This is a much more important issue than initial expense. Most cities do this stuff gradually, as cash becomes available. The most important thing is building a network which incrementally improves the system in different parts of the city, and is eventually effective for the whole city.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Could you give us some idea of how you would envisage metro lines serving the southwest of the city and the northwest of the city tying in with this proposed metro route, giving Dublin the one-change metro system which is enjoyed by many other cities in Europe?

Really? It's very, very easy, you just construct a new tunnel connecting to the existing lines when you need it. Like every other underground system in the world. Hopefully they'll consider potential future station expansion for SSG with the initial plan, and even better would be a stubbed tunnel branch that would allow for easy link-up with a future South-west line.

This is a much more important issue than initial expense. Most cities do this stuff gradually, as cash becomes available. The most important thing is building a network which incrementally improves the system in different parts of the city, and is eventually effective for the whole city.

So why do you want them to spend a huge amount of money all at once then? You're advocating the opposite of a gradual expenditure.

marno21

The current projects going ahead in Dublin are indicative of the NTA's Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2016-2035, which contains a reference to a Metro South, which would continue Metro North down towards Sandyford along the Green Line by 2035. Given Metro North is to start in 2021, it made sense to bundle these and minimize overall costs. There is no plan for a Metro to Harolds Cross so it won't happen in the short to medium term.

Regarding the cynicism etc. Back in 2013 when it was decided to proceed with Luas BXD and not Metro, that was an easy way out. Those easy way outs are now gone. There is no room in the city centre for further Luas development and all proposed Luas extensions (Bray, Poolbeg, Finglas and Lucan) are localised and don't have a broad political catch. In addition, none are ready to go in the medium term. The Metrolink project is the only "major" project in the Greater Dublin Area that will be shovel ready soon, and as the poster above said, it can be used extensively for spin and marketing regarding housing, congestion alleviation, the Airport etc. In addition, the last Luas opening has got lots of negative press due to the mess its caused in the city centre, so the Metro being underground doesn't have the same negative connotations.

Thankfully, Colm McCarthy and co don't appear to be getting that message across very strongly. The Macroom bypass won't get votes in the GDA so the Metro is more likely to go ahead now than ever before.

roadmaster

I know the money involved will be a lot different but when the extra Luas Lines where built the public where very happy for it to happen because they had seen the benefits , so when the metro is built I would not be surprised to see extra lines built in the future due to public demand and acceptance

loyatemu

MJohnston wrote: »

Also, people are probably thinking about this in the non-integrated terms of other Dublin transport, but this will have ticketing completely integrated with the Luas (and perhaps by 2027 we might have integrated ticketing across all modes anyway), so you won't have to worry about a tag-off-on-off situation.

Hopefully you're right, because trams arriving in Sandyford are going to be packed and pretty much everyone on them will be changing to the metro.

Sam Russell

loyatemu wrote: »

Hopefully you're right, because trams arriving in Sandyford are going to be packed and pretty much everyone on them will be changing to the metro.

I would see the Sandyford depot being Metro and Luas, with the Luas element only serving the Sandyford to Bray section. The Luas could serve Bray onto Parnell in off-peak times, mainly to move trams to other sections, or they could just move as empty transfers.

It would follow that the Charlemont connection would be maintained, but an extension from there down Adelaide Rd towards Leeson St, and perhaps onwards to GCD might make sense.

This is all a long way in the future. Order the TBM now and drop it in the ground somewhere. We will point it in the right direction then.

Equium

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would see the Sandyford depot being Metro and Luas, with the Luas element only serving the Sandyford to Bray section. The Luas could serve Bray onto Parnell in off-peak times, mainly to move trams to other sections, or they could just move as empty transfers.

It would follow that the Charlemont connection would be maintained, but an extension from there down Adelaide Rd towards Leeson St, and perhaps onwards to GCD might make sense.

This is all a long way in the future. Order the TBM now and drop it in the ground somewhere. We will point it in the right direction then.

Longer term, it's not inconceivable that the entire route from Swords to Brides Glen (and subsequently Bray) will operate to metro standard.

LXFlyer

Equium wrote: »

Longer term, it's not inconceivable that the entire route from Swords to Brides Glen (and subsequently Bray) will operate to metro standard.

Very doubtful given the number of at grade crossings south of Sandyford.

Peregrine

Equium wrote: »

Longer term, it's not inconceivable that the entire route from Swords to Brides Glen (and subsequently Bray) will operate to metro standard.

There are so many at grade crossings on the existing section and likely more to come in Bray. I wouldn't say inconceivable but I'd say it's unlikely.

salmocab

What at grade crossings are in the inner section? Say Sandyford inwards? Sandyford itself, Alexandra college and the stop before ranelagh whose name escapes me right now anymore?
Not counting charlemont onwards

dubhthach

LXFlyer wrote: »

Very doubtful given the number of at grade crossings south of Sandyford.

Only way I could see Metro been extended south of Sandyford is if they continue it on the old Harcourt Street (DSER railway) alignment and have it connect up to the Luas at the 'ghost station' between Ballyogan and Carrickmines stops.

Of course from looking at Google maps there appears to have been some 'land grabs' along Torquay road, with the odd tennis court built on the old trackbed etc.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2708037,-6.1868243,548m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

Which probably means that the the cost of Compulsory purchase would make it unlikely, given how well healed the residents are.

CreativeSen

Do we have a date for when the proposed route and stop locations will be announced?

Please and thanks

LXFlyer

salmocab wrote: »

What at grade crossings are in the inner section? Say Sandyford inwards? Sandyford itself, Alexandra college and the stop before ranelagh whose name escapes me right now anymore?
Not counting charlemont onwards

Beechwood.

CreativeSen wrote: »

Do we have a date for when the proposed route and stop locations will be announced?

Please and thanks

Not yet. Sometime in the next few months.

AngryLips

marno21 wrote: »

There is no room in the city centre for further Luas development and all proposed Luas extensions (Bray, Poolbeg, Finglas and Lucan) are localised and don't have a broad political catch

That’s completely untrue, and one of those projects you mention - Lucan line - is going to require a new east-west alignment which is currently envisioned to run down Dame Street. It’s a myth that there’s no space in city centre, there’s no space for cars in city centre - that’s about it.

Phil.x

bk wrote: »

Lots of examples of lines running parallel for at least some distance in London, New York, etc. Not unusual at all and another concept that we need to get use to here in Ireland.

But not when they are first built. With limited track transport it's pointless or corruption

bk

Equium wrote: »

Longer term, it's not inconceivable that the entire route from Swords to Brides Glen (and subsequently Bray) will operate to metro standard.

While the service south of Sandyford wouldn't be Metro standard in terms of speed and frequency, they could perhaps have the Metro trains continue further south and thus eliminate the need for a transfer at Sandyford.

So lets say the Metro frequency is every 3 minutes. You could have 1 in every 3 trains continue South to Bray while the other 2 turn around at Sandyford. So Sandyford to Bray would have about a 10 minute frequency and the "Metro" train on that section would travel slower.

So say someone gets on at Brides Glen, they get on a Metro Train there, but it travels at the same speed as a Luas does at the moment, but once it hits Sandyford it then increases it's speed to match in with those other Metros.

I don't know if this is the way if they will do it or if they will have a transfer at Sandyford, there are pros and cons to both.

However I'm pretty certain trams won't continue onto and mix with Metros, that doesn't make sense.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

That’s completely untrue, and one of those projects you mention - Lucan line - is going to require a new east-west alignment which is currently envisioned to run down Dame Street. It’s a myth that there’s no space in city centre, there’s no space for cars in city centre - that’s about it.

I remain to be convinced that such a route will ever happen given the issues faced by the Green Line in the city centre.

I suspect ABP are going to be far more forensic in their examination of the impact on overall traffic flows of such a project.

I can’t see how that route would ever work reliably - trams are great when they’re segregated. But that route wouldn’t be.

That’s why DU would be far more preferable.

markpb

bk wrote: »

So say someone gets on at Brides Glen, they get on a Metro Train there, but it travels at the same speed as a Luas does at the moment, but once it hits Sandyford it then increases it's speed to match in with those other Metros.

The current trams can (and do) travel at speeds up to 70kph on appropriate sections of track. I'd be surprised if a hypothetical metro will travel faster than that.

bk

Phil.x wrote: »

But not when they are first built. With limited track transport it's pointless or corruption

The Luas Green line was opened in 2004, assuming the Metro opens in 2027, that is 23 years later. 23 years of serving Dublin, that certainly isn't pointless or corruption!

The Green line was always designed with the idea of upgrading it to Metro in future. To me, this is a great example of forward planning. Leaving room for expansion of a service. The Luas has been relatively easily expanded a few times with both longer trams/stations and more frequent trams and the next step is upping it to Metro standard.

Of course it would have been great if the full Sandyford to Swords Metro could have been built 23 years ago, but that completely ignores the economic, political and public reality of the time. Instead a more reasonable service was built, with plenty of room for easy upgrading and the people of Dublin fell in love with it.