Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

The Luas Green line was opened in 2004, assuming the Metro opens in 2027, that is 23 years later. 23 years of serving Dublin, that certainly isn't pointless or corruption!

The Green line was always designed with the idea of upgrading it to Metro in future. To me, this is a great example of forward planning. Leaving room for expansion of a service. The Luas has been relatively easily expanded a few times with both longer trams/stations and more frequent trams and the next step is upping it to Metro standard.

Of course it would have been great if the full Sandyford to Swords Metro could have been built 23 years ago, but that completely ignores the economic, political and public reality of the time. Instead a more reasonable service was built, with plenty of room for easy upgrading and the people of Dublin fell in love with it.

The corruption perhaps is that it's the same stretch getting upgraded and extended while other parts of Dublin rot.

spacetweek

From CIS Ireland newsletter updates:

“The NMN scheme is likely to link with the existing Green Line (a surface light rail line) in the South City area and the design services will include for continuation of metro services southwards past the tie-in point, together with any associated surface light rail changes. Full details will be provided at the tender stage.
PROMOTER
National Transport Authority”

Just to confirm details of the new scope.

bk

markpb wrote: »

The current trams can (and do) travel at speeds up to 70kph on appropriate sections of track. I'd be surprised if a hypothetical metro will travel faster than that.

You are right, I speak more of average speed over a length of line. The Metro on the Sandyford to Bray section will on average go slower due to all the junctions. It will then travel on average faster on the Sandfyord north section due to full segregation.

I suspect we won't see Luas trams on the Metro for the following reasons.

- Luas trams would be shorter and maybe not as wide. Thus those 1 in 3 trains would be lower capacity and reduce the overall capacity of the line.

- I'm hoping that the Metro will be a high floor train, which gives you more internal space. Obviously the Luas wouldn't be able to travel on this section if the train platforms are built up.

Though obviously this raises questions on how you would build up the stations and how much disruption the Green line would suffer then.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The corruption perhaps is that it's the same stretch getting upgraded and extended while other parts of Dublin rot.

I don't see it as corruption. It is almost always cheaper, quicker and easier to upgrade existing infrastructure, then to build something new from scratch.

Just take the upgrades to the M50 or the current widening of the Naas Road or the increase in DARTs to 8 carriages or hopefully soon every 10 minutes.

And that isn't at all unique to Ireland, you can see the same happen all over Europe.

Of course we need to be building too new places too and the SSG to Swords section is exactly that, but upgrading the green line is a relatively cheap and obvious capacity upgrade to an already congested service with lots of potential to build tens of thousands of apartments along it.

orangerhyme

Does anyone think that Sandyford might be suitable to be built up to a higher density like La Defense in Paris or Canary Wharf in London?
It's a similar distance from city center. I'm talking about over the next 20 years.
The new Metro would support this.
I'd like it to happen in the docklands but it doesn't look likely with the new developments mostly just 8 stories

Peregrine

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The corruption perhaps is that it's the same stretch getting upgraded and extended while other parts of Dublin rot.

If it's getting extended then it's not the same stretch. It's other parts being served. Think about it.

As for getting upgraded, this was the initial plan for the Green Line. The Green Line was supposed to run from Sandyford to the airport (and to Swords?). The SSG-airport section was then dropped and was to be built later. Most of the Green Line was built to metro spec to allow for this. The current segregated sections are under capacity, can handle so much more and will need to handle so much more when developments around Cherrywood come onlime. When Metro North was designed, however, it didn't link up with the Green Line. Despite the little extra cost involved in doing this and the wide range of benefits to be gained.

Linking the Metro with the Green Line doesn't preclude future metro or Luas developments in other areas of Dublin. It's the way it was planned 20 years ago, costs very little and unleashes a lot of unused capacity.

We're not building a €4bn project running from the Swords to 6-8km underground on the southside. Not in one go and not with our political setup. I would much rather this than dumping the TBM underground in SSG. It's a no-brainer. If anything, this project could help other metro projects get built in the future.

orangerhyme

Peregrine wrote: »

If it's getting extended then it's not the same stretch. It's other parts being served. Think about it.

As for getting upgraded, this was the initial plan for the Green Line. The Green Line was supposed to run from Sandyford to the airport (and to Swords?). The SSG-airport section was then dropped and was to be built later. Most of the Green Line was built to metro spec to allow for this. The current segregated sections are under capacity, can handle so much more and will need to handle so much more when developments around Cherrywood come onlime. When Metro North was designed, however, it didn't link up with the Green Line. Despite the little extra cost involved in doing this and the wide range of benefits to be gained.

Linking the Metro with the Green Line doesn't preclude future metro or Luas developments in other areas of Dublin. It's the way it was planned 20 years ago, costs very little and unleashes a lot of unused capacity.

We're not building a €4bn project running from the Swords to 6-8km underground on the southside. Not in one go and not with our political setup. I would much rather this than dumping the TBM underground in SSG. It's a no-brainer. If anything, this project could help other metro projects get built in the future.

I've read lots of places that the green line was built for Metro in the future?
What exactly is meant by this, the actual infrastructure supporting the luas rails ?

BonnieSituation

Peregrine wrote: »

If it's getting extended then it's not the same stretch. It's other parts being served. Think about it.

As for getting upgraded, this was the initial plan for the Green Line. The Green Line was supposed to run from Sandyford to the airport (and to Swords?). The SSG-airport section was then dropped and was to be built later. Most of the Green Line was built to metro spec to allow for this. The current segregated sections are under capacity, can handle so much more and will need to handle so much more when developments around Cherrywood come onlime. When Metro North was designed, however, it didn't link up with the Green Line. Despite the little extra cost involved in doing this and the wide range of benefits to be gained.

Linking the Metro with the Green Line doesn't preclude future metro or Luas developments in other areas of Dublin. It's the way it was planned 20 years ago, costs very little and unleashes a lot of unused capacity.

We're not building a €4bn project running from the Swords to 6-8km underground on the southside. Not in one go and not with our political setup. I would much rather this than dumping the TBM underground in SSG. It's a no-brainer. If anything, this project could help other metro projects get built in the future.

Now now.

I was referring to someone above calling it corrupt and making was suggestion as to what they might have meant. Rein in your dogs there.

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But also think about it, a 13yo line is getting a second upgrade (if you include platform extensions on the original stretch). On no level is this "good planning". Good planning is leaving in options for contingency for about 50 or so years... Not perfectly predictable levels of growth within a decade of use.

Yes Metro is a different and a vastly improved form of transit but it is transit over a similar stretch and serving a similar catchment. It's welcome, but lets not forget what an omnishambles the whole luas debacle has been since 1996 when I first saw it in a Dublin Corporation school newsletter. The northern part was cancelled and because of it was considered too expensive and we know what "too expensive" meant when it comes to that part of Dublin.

And the underground running was something we were told we wouldn't want or use...

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The best part of this whole project is that it might stop the tram obsession for the outer reaches and give Lucan, Blanch etc a metro line.

bk

BonnieSituation, of course we all wish that the Metro had been built 20 years ago. But that completely ignores the political and public reality of Ireland. There was zero hope of a Metro being built back then, instead they did the next best thing and built what they could and left room for upgrading.

You really can't ignore the political and public reality when planning in Ireland, if you do, then you will get nowhere. Look at Dart Underground, been planned for the past 50 years and still nothing to show. That is because they ignored the politically reality.

Breaking a project up into smaller, more digestible phases means you stand at least some change of eventually getting it done.

Prior to the Luas, the majority of the public was luke warm about it. Then they built it and the public loved it and cried out for more. Metro is the next step and hopefully will just be the start of a lot more.

D.L.R.

orangerhyme wrote: »

I've read lots of places that the green line was built for Metro in the future?
What exactly is meant by this, the actual infrastructure supporting the luas rails ?

It means the green line has a wider loading gauge.

________________
________________ Northbound

________________
________________ Southbound



_________________
_________________ Northbound


_________________
_________________ Southbound


More room for wider trains.

Sam Russell

orangerhyme wrote: »

I've read lots of places that the green line was built for Metro in the future?
What exactly is meant by this, the actual infrastructure supporting the luas rails ?

Basically, Luas runs on standard gauge - that is 4 foot 8 and a half inches. Dart runs on 1.6 m gauge. Luas runs on 750 v DC overhead electric line. Dart runs on 1,500 VDC.

Metro (as envisaged) will run on standard gauge, and also run on 750 V DC. The Metro trains may be wider than Luas trams and so the space between each direction needs to be greater. The Green line was built this way whereas the Red line was not.

Also, the height of platforms may need to be higher if the floor of the Metro trains are flat with bogies mounted below, whereas trams have low floors with the bogies taking floor space. High floors maximise space for passengers, particularly standing passengers while low floors allw easy access at street level. (Metro is not planned to run on streets but be completely segregated).

Metro trains were planned to be 90 M long, so each train will carry more than twice the number than can fit on a tram. Also, Metro trains will travel faster and more frequently than the Luas could.

orangerhyme

Sam Russell wrote: »

Basically, Luas runs on standard gauge - that is 4 foot 8 and a half inches. Dart runs on 1.6 m gauge. Luas runs on 750 v DC overhead electric line. Dart runs on 1,500 VDC.

Metro (as envisaged) will run on standard gauge, and also run on 750 V DC. The Metro trains may be wider than Luas trams and so the space between each direction needs to be greater. The Green line was built this way whereas the Red line was not.

Also, the height of platforms may need to be higher if the floor of the Metro trains are flat with bogies mounted below, whereas trams have low floors with the bogies taking floor space. High floors maximise space for passengers, particularly standing passengers while low floors allw easy access at street level. (Metro is not planned to run on streets but be completely segregated).

Metro trains were planned to be 90 M long, so each train will carry more than twice the number than can fit on a tram. Also, Metro trains will travel faster and more frequently than the Luas could.

Ok thanks for knowledgeable response.
Fair play also to the engineers for their forward thinking, which we often seem to lack in Ireland.

wakka12

orangerhyme wrote: »

Does anyone think that Sandyford might be suitable to be built up to a higher density like La Defense in Paris or Canary Wharf in London?
It's a similar distance from city center. I'm talking about over the next 20 years.
The new Metro would support this.
I'd like it to happen in the docklands but it doesn't look likely with the new developments mostly just 8 stories

I can't remember exactly but just off the top of my hear sandy ford already seems to have quite a lot of buildings which look considerably taller than most dockland buildings?

orangerhyme

wakka12 wrote: »

I can't remember exactly but just off the top of my hear sandy ford already seems to have quite a lot of buildings which look considerably taller than most dockland buildings?

yes but if you look at Stillorgan Industrial estate its very low density and low rent enterprises

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

BonnieSituation, of course we all wish that the Metro had been built 20 years ago. But that completely ignores the political and public reality of Ireland. There was zero hope of a Metro being built back then, instead they did the next best thing and built what they could and left room for upgrading.

You really can't ignore the political and public reality when planning in Ireland, if you do, then you will get nowhere. Look at Dart Underground, been planned for the past 50 years and still nothing to show. That is because they ignored the politically reality.

Breaking a project up into smaller, more digestible phases means you stand at least some change of eventually getting it done.

Prior to the Luas, the majority of the public was luke warm about it. Then they built it and the public loved it and cried out for more. Metro is the next step and hopefully will just be the start of a lot more.

You really get away with talking some baloney here.

20 years ago was 1998. Luas was caught up in a ****storm due to a new FF lead Government. Luas was ready to go and then stopped due to the new Government ordered reports on Underground via the CC and more. Can you describe for me the political and public reality in 1998? I'd love to hear your version of it.

A mere 4 years later while the version of luas we got was under construction Metro was announced. Hardly a zero hope scenario. The luas greenline issue wasn't solely based on future planning. It originated via a complete meltdown at Government level about putting luas under the CC and northwards.

DART underground? Nearly 50 years in different guises. Now back in planning hell. Explain the political reality around that? Breaking things up into smaller projects? You claim that's the way forward. Your opinion or have you some magic formula that proves it will work? (don't use the motorway network as evidence like before because the motorway network was put to the public as one big project and built according to the ability of CCs.

You like these phrases about political and public reality. Explain them to me in lots of detail. I'm absolutely fascinated by your potential version of it.

roadmaster

i was listening to Ivan Yeats on my way home last night and of course he brought up how colm mccarty and the metro being a waste of money and how a Dart link can be done for only couple a euro basically. There seems to be a narrative out there from certain quarters that the metro is simply to connect the airport to the city. I cant understand how there is not more people getting the proper narrative out that its much more than just an airport link and that it will open up north Dublin particularly around swords

dubhthach

roadmaster wrote: »

i was listening to Ivan Yeats on my way home last night and of course he brought up how colm mccarty and the metro being a waste of money and how a Dart link can be done for only couple a euro basically. There seems to be a narrative out there from certain quarters that the metro is simply to connect the airport to the city. I cant understand how there is not more people getting the proper narrative out that its much more than just an airport link and that it will open up north Dublin particularly around swords

There was a similar narrative back when the Dart (originally Phase 1 of DRRTS) was been talked about. I came across a Sunday Independent headline from circa 78-79 where the author said proposed electrification of line to Bray was a waste of money and it would be more economical to pay the current train users to drive into Dublin along the Merrion Road! (jaysuz imagine the Rock Road without the Dart!)

plodder

McCarthy was wrong about the Luas when it started up. Economists are bean-counters who rarely get the big picture anyway. Luas shows that the people of Dublin are crying out for good quality public transport.

AngryLips

plodder wrote: »

McCarthy was wrong about the Luas when it started up. Economists are bean-counters who rarely get the big picture anyway. Luas shows that the people of Dublin are crying out for good quality public transport.

He has been consistently wrong about PT, it’s amazing that he still gets airtime on this subject

CreativeSen

Taken from 98fm

Transport chiefs plan to link the proposed new Dublin metro with the DART and commuter trains at Tara Street.

It's in a bid to make the line accessible to more passengers in the city.

The Irish Independent says the re-route means a stop at the Mater is now expected to be ditched.

That's despite a station box worth 16 million euro already being built under the hospital.

Dublin Metro is a proposed rail line which will link Swords, the airport with Stephen's Green and Sandyford. A significant portion of the track will be laid underground.

The government has set aside 3 billion euro for it and the final version of the route is expected to be put out to public consultation soon.

If given the go ahead it's due to be read in in 2027.

Does anyone know the source?

Sam Russell

I guess it is a misreading of the 2040 plan.

In the plan, Dart is being extended to Maynooth, allowing a connection between Dart and Metrolink at Drumcondra.

lateconnection

Some interesting stuff being reported in the media this morning.

http://www.98fm.com/Dublin-Metro-To-Link-Up-With-Dart-At-Tara-Street
https://lovindublin.com/news/the-dublin-metro-will-replace-the-green-luas-line-once-its-complete
https://www.fm104.ie/news/more-changes-planned-for-metro/


Tara Street is now being mentioned (we knew about this already), and the stop at the Mater Hospital could be scrapped. No surprise there really, when original MN was being planned, the plan for the new childrens' hospital to be located at the Mater would have majorly influenced the decision to locate a station at the hospital. Now that the NCH is to be located elsewhere, the requirement for a station is not as great.

plodder

Tara st stop makes sense, but dropping the Mater doesn't imo. There's 2500 people working just in the hospital.

fionnsci

Is an Drumcondra, OCS, Tara, SSG alignment doable? OCS and Tara close together but maximum connectivity.

orangerhyme

There's two commuter rails passing by Drumcondra so pretty good connectivity

orangerhyme

plodder wrote: »

Tara st stop makes sense, but dropping the Mater doesn't imo. There's 2500 people working just in the hospital.

Drumcondra stop could be 700/800 m away

orangerhyme

There's already 15 million a year using luas green line, so 30 million passengers a year seems doable.

Does anyone have an idea of passengers taking bus from city center to Airport, DCU, Swords etc

plodder

orangerhyme wrote: »

Drumcondra stop could be 700/800 m away

That was always the case though. As well as the 2,500 staff at the Mater, the patients, visitors, you have Mountjoy jail. There must be at least 500 working there. Mater is a destination. Drumcondra is an interchange point. We need both.

LeinsterDub

Still bloody at surface at Ballymun according to this

Bray Head

plodder wrote: »

Tara st stop makes sense, but dropping the Mater doesn't imo. There's 2500 people working just in the hospital.

The Capital Plan explicitly mentions the Mater.