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Homophobia, Homosexuality and Men

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    #32
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Why do you assume that if someone is male and has a bf they they are automatically homosexual?

    Gay men are often seen as being less then a man there for feminine traits are assigned to them and expected of them, ergo camp is seen as having faminine/girlie atributes (which cracks me up cos there are women who don't have those and who are straight), the mincing gay is seen as weak and not a threat were as a 'real' man who is gay is more of a threat cos really no one expects to be rape or sexually abused by a weak camp gay guy were as a macho gay/bi guy maybe lurking letting you think he's one of the lads and then who knows.


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    #33
    ronaldoshaky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭ronaldoshaky


    Any liberal way you paint it, it still isnt natural.


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    #34
    Will
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,183 ✭✭✭✭Will


    ronaldoshaky wrote: »
    Any liberal way you paint it, it still isnt natural.

    What? Love/attraction for another human being? What's more natural than that?!


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    #35
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    ronaldoshaky wrote: »
    Any liberal way you paint it, it still isnt natural.

    Then, why does it come naturally for so many people?


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    #36
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It doesnt bother me.

    I have a few gay friends and its not something I retain in the memory banks and I dont class people by their orientation.I have a very good lesbian friend who is an incredible woman.

    One of my sons schoolfriends is gay. I dont think any of them take much notice and he was at a party in my house during the summer after the Leaving Cert. Another spotty teenager with skin problems.


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    #37
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    I'd have two questions Boston, and please don't feel ou have to answer these directly, I'm not directing them specifically at you.

    Firstly, on the subject of campness etc. Where does this link between it and being gay come from? I've known straight camp guys and gay camp guys. The prevailing attitude seems to be that it is a homosexual attribute. I'd be genuinely interested to know where this stems from?

    Secondly, what is it about the camp/loud gay people that posters don't like? Is it a feeling of being threatened by the confidence that it seems such people have? As a group of people, we Irish don't seem to like it when people are overly confident. Does it stem from that? Or is it as Boston says, because its out of the comfort zone.

    Question 1.

    I was hanging out with a couple lads from kerry a few months back. By the end of the night I swear I was saying "ah sure like boy" every other sentence. A friend of mine from Cavan has picked up all these Dublin'isms from her boyfriend. When you associate nearly exclusively with one subset of people you begin to pick up characteristics of that grouping. That is human nature. I see it in trinity, people from the bog arse of no where with the manorisms of a born and bread Dublin 4 resident.

    Couple that with the fact that the easiest way to pick up other men is to have "tells" then it's leads to extenuating and hyping up the campness.

    Lastly, for every camp gay guy there's a non so gay equivalent, but you don't notice those so much. If someone uses campness as the sole judge then I think they'll get it wrong as often as right. For instance when I what English tv, there's all these straight lads with tight pink t-shirts, styled hair, ect. You wouldn't see that here though. So even the definition of "camp" is shifting towards "metro".

    Question 2.

    What you'd have to actually is what is there problem with homosexuality. Guys who accept the "straight acting" gay but "hate" irrationally the camp one are basically saying "you're ok because I can pretend you're not gay". I think that ties into a hidden fear of being gay/bisexual themselves. I'm not saying they are, but that they've never actually asked themselves the question and are fear full of the answer.

    But it's not just straight guys who have this problem. A lot of gay/bi sexual guys don't like the effeminate ones. It's fuked up but it's true. I've listened to gay guys rant at length about "twinks" or whatever and all I can think is isn't life hard enough without the people who are meant to accept you, not. Their issues tend to be born out of self hatred more then anything else.
    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    What do you want? Some sort of round of applause because you're a homosexual man that acts normally?
    Seems to me there isn't anything that a heterosexual person can add to this thread without being criticized or demonized?

    I worked with a gay bloke in Australia & he was sound as a pound & he found overly camp loud gay people annoying.

    You see what im getting at?

    Yea, I want a badge that says legend. I mean being hetro-normative requires so much work for me. It's just who I am. Being camp is just who they are. It's not a bad thing. It's like having a problem with someone because of their accent.

    I don't know what your point is? Perhaps it's that people dislike others for the most stupid and trivial reasons? Agreed.
    ronaldoshaky wrote: »
    Any liberal way you paint it, it still isnt natural.

    Whats so great about the natural way? I'm sure if you ever manage to sire some specimen, it's mother will be delivering it in a nice hospital with a full medical team rather then dropping it out in the wild.
    L31mr0d wrote: »
    You seem to be quite an angry little chappy, take a deep breath and chill out. This thread is specifically about homosexuality, which is why I'm keeping my posts within those borders. Gay men being shrill is as irritating to me as slappers cackling, or people who suck their fingers loudly instead of using a napkin.

    You've met a lot of shrill gay men on which this opinion is based. I find this amazing. Six years I've been out and about. Shrill gay men have account for maybe .1%. I'd be interested in knowing where you, a heterosexual man from swords, are meeting all these shrill in your face gay men. I'm going to venture a guess and say you're either talking about people you've seen on tv or one specific person.
    L31mr0d wrote: »
    Like I said though, this has nothing to do with their sexuality, rather their personality. It is completely normal to dislike an individual because of their personality traits. You seem to be a person that is a case in point, I'm sure a myriad of people annoy and irritate you because you dislike aspects of their personality and opinions ;)

    If you've never met the person, never talked to them, never interacted with them in any way, then no it's not rational to dislike them. Essencially you dislike the idea of camp men. That's like me disliking the idea of people from swords.

    As for myself. No, I dislike few people. It takes a lot to get on my bad side because I recognise that people aren't simple, we all have our flaws and maybe if I overlook someone else's, they'll see past mine and both our life's will be richer for it.


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    #38
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    ronaldoshaky wrote: »
    Any liberal way you paint it, it still isnt natural.

    Where's the {thumbs down} icon. I can only find the {thumbs up}/thanks here with firefox.







    It's OK, I know there is none......but there should be.


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    #39
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Giselle wrote: »
    Its homophobia, because its alright to be gay, provided they don't have to acknowledge it, see it, think about it, interact with it.

    As for 'shoving their sexuality in our faces' Lol.

    Every time a straight man makes a lewd comment about a woman, thats EXACTLY what he does, but somehow thats ok.

    My aren't we overly presumptuous. I'm sorry can you quote when I said I was ok with men making lewd comments about women?

    Also, I have no problem with a gay man making a remark on the sexual attractiveness of another male. You know full well that has nothing to do with what myself and others are talking about.

    Also, I don't find the way camp gay men act to be feminine or emasculating at all. I was reading a study on this recently that said if this was the case then it wouldn't be possible for a female to easily impersonate the stereotype of a gay man. But it is.


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    #40
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Boston wrote: »
    I'd be interested in knowing where you, a heterosexual man from swords, are meeting all these shrill in your face gay men. I'm going to venture a guess and say you're either talking about people you've seen on tv or one specific person.

    What does the town I have under my avatar have to do with anything? Do you imagine I have spent my life solely within this town and not ventured beyond it's borders?
    Boston wrote: »
    Essencially you dislike the idea of camp men. That's like me disliking the idea of people from swords.

    It's not similar at all. People have already given you examples of traits which they universally dislike without knowing the person first hand. These tend to be personal habits of the individual and not inconsequential facts about the person.


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    #41
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »

    Secondly, what is it about the camp/loud gay people that posters don't like? Is it a feeling of being threatened by the confidence that it seems such people have? As a group of people, we Irish don't seem to like it when people are overly confident. Does it stem from that? Or is it as Boston says, because its out of the comfort zone.

    I don't think it's a fear of confidence. Lot's of people are confident without getting under people's skins. I'd say it's closer to what you said Boston said. It doesn't personally annoy me. I've spent hours talking to the campest queens imaginable but that's one-on one. In a group/party setting it's a bit different. I have noticed that in a group of straight guys, a camp person tends to speak at the wrong time or make too many references to their sexuality and I know that makes people uncomfortable.

    Sorry Mystic, I thought I might have been able to help you out but I'm only going in circles.


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    #42
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Why do these sort of threads always end up making out heterosexual men to be utter bastards that hate all gay men. Its presumptuous waffle, you don't know me so don't assign me to a stereotype.
    Get over yourselves honestly & change the record.

    Surely threads like this only bring attention to the stupidity & ignorance of gay bashers & other such morons?


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    #43
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    L31mr0d wrote: »
    What does the town I have under my avatar have to do with anything? Do you imagine I have spent my life solely within this town and not ventured beyond it's borders?

    Yes. Also, you live there, it's safe to assume you socialise there.
    L31mr0d wrote: »
    It's not similar at all. People have already given you examples of traits which they universally dislike without knowing the person first hand. These tend to be personal habits of the individual and not inconsequential facts about the person.

    yes, and I'm saying it's a narrow minded and backwards reason to dislike someone.


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    #44
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Boston wrote: »
    yes, and I'm saying it's a narrow minded and backwards reason to dislike someone.

    Well I'm saying that's an absurd conclusion to reach and verging on delusional.

    We aren't robots, equally liking all aspects of everything about everyone. I don't equally enjoy all types of food. I dislike the taste of sprouts, I can be pretty much certain a sprout I have never seen before will also taste just as bad.


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    #45
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Why do these sort of threads always end up making out heterosexual men to be utter bastards that hate all gay men. Its presumptuous waffle, you don't know me so don't assign me to a stereotype.
    Get over yourselves honestly & change the record.

    The number of men so far on the thread who don't have issue out number those that do, so I can't see it as affirming stereotypes.
    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Surely threads like this only bring attention to the stupidity & ignorance of gay bashers & other such morons?

    I think that they can be a good discussion on how masculinity and homosexuality( and bisexuality in men) is perceived and how people react to to it consciously and unconsciously.


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    #46
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    Re: the campness thing. I don't think there's any problem with disliking certain traits in people, no matter how superficial, as long as you don't automatically dislike the person themselves for it.

    Overt loudness is an example of a trait that annoys me. If someone's overtly loud, I will find that aspect of their personality to be off-putting. I won't deeply resent them for it, and there's every chance that I could see past it and actually get to like them as a person if I were to get to know them.

    In casual conversation, I might say something like "I hate really loud people". I would think that most people would understand that that would not be me expressing complete and utter contempt for every person in the world who I would find excessively loud, but rather an expression of dislike for the trait of loudness in a person.

    I don't really think most gay guys fit into the camp stereotype, though I've met a few. I do dislike some of the traits that come with this stereotype and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


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    #47
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    I do dislike some of the traits that come with this stereotype and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

    So you are admitting you are homophobic then?

    Wow, this labeling game is easy. Also you don't like people who are loud, that's bigotry right there. You should be ashamed of yourself.


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    #48
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The number of men so far on the thread who don't have issue out number those that do, so I can't see it as affirming stereotypes.

    Yeah & you know fine well that the people who do respond by saying they find themselves uncomfortable with outrageously camp gay men will of course be compared to the devil himself.
    And of course the 'thanks' hounds will come out for an easy target.....yawn.

    By the way Boston stop making yourself out like you have never been annoyed by someones else's behavior.


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    #49
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    L31mr0d wrote: »
    Well I'm saying that's an absurd conclusion to reach and verging on delusional.

    We aren't robots, equally liking all aspects of everything about everyone. I don't equally enjoy all types of food. I dislike the taste of sprouts, I can be pretty much certain a sprout I have never seen before will also taste just as bad.

    I don't like dear meat. Now I've never tasted nor seen dear meat but the little irrational voices in my head tell me I don't like it, so I'm going to go with that.
    L31mr0d wrote: »
    So you are admitting you are homophobic then?

    Wow, this labeling game is easy. Also you don't like people who are loud, that's bigotry right there. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Doesn't make you a homophobe. Might make you an idiot to judge people before you meet them though. Some might call it a prejudice. Penny = dropped.


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    #50
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Yeah & you know fine well that the people who do respond by saying they find themselves uncomfortable with outrageously camp gay men will of course be compared to the devil himself.
    And of course the 'thanks' hounds will come out for an easy target.....yawn.

    By the way Boston stop making yourself out like you have never been annoyed by someones else's behavior.

    So now it's "outrageously" camp. Thats a pretty camp/metro sexual phrase. I think I might have to start hating you now.


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    #51
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Boston wrote: »
    Might make you an idiot to judge people before you meet them though. Some might call it a prejudice. Penny = dropped.

    Well it's a good thing then that I don't judge people before I meet them. I'd hate (whoops, used that naughty word) strongly dislike for you to think I'm an idiot.


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    #52
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Boston wrote: »
    So now it's "outrageously" camp. Thats a pretty camp/metro sexual phrase. I think I might have to start hating you now.

    Hey no problem but you won't hear me whinging about it.:)


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    #53
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Yeah & you know fine well that the people who do respond by saying they find themselves uncomfortable with outrageously camp gay men will of course be compared to the devil himself.

    Is it wrong to question why and what behaviors exactly get up their noses to gain a better understanding?

    I know why I dislike screaming queens, it has bugger all to do with their sexual preferences and more to do with traits in common with a certain type of teenage girls.


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    #54
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    There's a few reasons straight and gay guys don't mix so much.

    Most gay guys won't talk about their personal life to straight guys. I guess they assume the straight guy won't want to know but sharing your personal life is pretty important to a proper friendship.

    For some reason girls are more enthusiastic about going to gay clubs than straight guys. I guess its because women actually like dancing etc and most straight men just go to clubs to pull

    Most straight guys have at some point fancied a girl but let on they were just friends. Most straight guys would ride their female friends if a no strings attached scenario came up. They assume a gay male friend would think the same about them. I'm not gay but if I had to bet I'd say they're probably right a fair amount of the time.

    So seeing as gay/straight men don't mix much straight men can only rely on stereotypes they've come across. They think these men are pathetic and hence see gay men as inferior


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    #55
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »

    I know why I dislike screaming queens, it has bugger all to do with their sexual preferences and more to do with traits in common with a certain type of teenage girls.

    I dont know any of those types or bears or whatever.

    If a person is the type of person I would normally mix with then ok.So I wouldnt have any screaming queens in my social group but i also wouldnt have environmentalists etc. And i wouldnt know what a bear or a muscle guy is as I am not into the culture.

    AFAIK - the gay scene just represents a small proportion of the gay community who camp it up and look for attention and its probably the exception.

    So any gay friends I do have will be kind of normal looking and acting.


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    #56
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Is it wrong to question why and what behaviors exactly get up their noses to gain a better understanding?

    No but sometimes you won't be able to get a rational answer.

    Take a person who picks their nose while talking to you, rolling it, then flicking it away. Why should an individual be repulsed at this. It needs to be cleaned and the manner in which an individual does this, and when they choose to do this is inconsequential to your interaction with them. If they are not making physical contact with you, and not flicking anything directly at you then you have no rational reason for it to annoy you or irritate you.

    Yet the sight of it does disgust people, and in polite company you wouldn't stick your finger up your nose (I've always wondered about the disparity with someone sticking their finger in their ear though)

    Also, you are now claiming that you also dislike screaming queens. If you where in a bunch of people and said "those screaming queens are annoying", and someone claimed you where homophobic, how would you defend yourself?


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    #57
    Nebit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 310 ✭✭Nebit


    OK first off im a gay man, and i am what would be classed as 'straight acting'

    Im sick of how all these threads end up with heterosexual males being told they're homophobic or being demonized for something which is just their opinion.
    IM SURE that if a camp guy talked to one of the guys who said 'i dont like campness' they'd just talk normally back to them and treat them like a human being and with respect, in the same way i would.

    BUT i will say here and now that although 'campness' doesn't effect me, and im being honest it really doesn't! I would typically choose not to hang around with that sort of person, not because they are a 'camp' person but rather because, in most cases, i have little in common.
    I think this is the same thing for most heterosexual males except we as a society use the word 'camp' to communicate this. I know for one that the majority of gay men do this as well.

    Hence!! not a sexuality thing (because im gay), not a confidence thing(because i dont mind people being camp), it is merely a personality thing.
    I still give said 'camp' guys a chance to talk to me but to be honest conversations are short lived.
    AND no im not insecure about my sexuality and NO im affraid of becoming a stereotype. This is just how i feel.

    ALSO i would like to say that my best friend has been called a homophobe before by other friends etc even gay men because he doesn't like 'campness' which is impossible since im like a brother to him and we hang around each other virtually everyday in college or out.
    He has even went into a gay bar with me.
    Seriously what the F*** is it with other gay men calling people a 'homophobe' when one expresses an opinion.


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    #58
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont know any of those types or bears or whatever.

    If a person is the type of person I would normally mix with then ok.So I wouldnt have any screaming queens in my social group but i also wouldnt have environmentalists etc. And i wouldnt know what a bear or a muscle guy is as I am not into the culture.

    AFAIK - the gay scene just represents a small proportion of the gay community who camp it up and look for attention and its probably the exception.

    I think it's not the gay scene representing in any way it is the media representing what it thinks is the gay scene in a certain way, which usually is the less threatening the stereotypical feminine gay scene. Where as there is a more lot of diversity.

    Rather then the likes of the furry glen, Which is a Bear hang out.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_%28gay_culture%29
    Bear is LGBT slang for those in the bear communities, a subculture in the gay/bisexual male communities and an emerging subset of LGBT communities with events, codes and culture-specific identity. It also describes a physical type.

    Bears tend to have hairy bodies and facial hair; some are heavy-set; some project an image of working-class masculinity in their grooming and appearance, though none of these are requirements or unique indicators. Some bears place importance on presenting a hypermasculine image and may shun interaction with, and even disdain, men who exhibit effeminacy.[1] The bear concept can function as an identity, an affiliation, and an ideal to live up to, and there is ongoing debate in bear communities about what constitutes a bear, however a consensus exists that inclusion is an important part of the Bear Community.[2][3]

    Bears are almost always gay or bisexual men, although increasingly transgender men (transmen) and those who shun labels for gender and sexuality are also included within bear communities.



    L31mr0d wrote: »
    No but sometimes you won't be able to get a rational answer.

    Also, you are now claiming that you also dislike screaming queens. If you where in a bunch of people and said "those screaming queens are annoying", and someone claimed you where homophobic, how would you defend yourself?

    I wouldn't say that, to me they are a shrieking and shrill person and people who are like that no matter their age, gender or sexuality irritate me. A person can be camp and not be grating in that manner and can be grating in that manner and not be camp or gay. I don't only think of that behaviour as being associated with a certain type of person, I've seen a wide range of people act that way an all of them rubbed me up the wrong way with those mannerisms.


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    #59
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    . Where as there is a more lot of diversity.

    In the heterosexual "scene" there is a lot of diversity too. However, I cant remember the last time someone phoned me up and asked me did I want to come over for dinner and do his Missus. Though I am sure there are people like that.

    So maybe we define the stereotype with reference to the exceptions.
    Rather then the likes of the furry glen, Which is a Bear hang out.

    Places to avoid I suppose the gay equivalent of dogging.


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    #60
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It is NOT the equalvant of gay dogging. It is a club run in a bar for the bear community to get together.


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    #61
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that, to me they are a shrieking and shrill person and people who are like that no matter their age, gender or sexuality irritate me.

    Ok you referred to them specifically as "screaming queens" in your previous post. Why would you not refer to them likewise in public, if they where in fact "screaming queens"?

    Anyway, that wasn't the crux of my point or my question.

    To rephrase so you may answer it, if you seen some "screaming queens" and you commented, "people like that annoy me", and someone claimed you where homophobic, how would you defend yourself against that accusation?

    Saying "I also dislike anyone who acts like that, regardless of their sexuality" clearly isn't enough, because everyone here who has said they dislike campness has said that also and it has been flatly ignored, in favour of criminalizing anyone who dislikes anything about Gay people. It's pathetic.
    amacachi wrote: »
    "Campness" happens to be one of the things that gets on my nerves, whether the person in question is gay or not.
    L31mr0d wrote: »
    Like I said though, this has nothing to do with their sexuality, rather their personality.


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