Homophobia, Homosexuality and Men

hobochris

One thing that does annoy me about certain gay camp males(AKA Screeching queens) is how they feel the need to broadcast there sexuality any chance they get.

If the situation was reversed and there was a Hetro' person broadcasting their sexuality to all within ear shot in an annoying manor I'd say(although having never made a derogatory comment towards homosexual's) they would be stereotyped and branded as a Homophobe or fag hater.

Yes your gay, get over yourself, no one cares.

I'm not sure if the screeching queen behavior is done in aid of attention seeking or if they believe there is some sort of shock value involved in broadcasting to the world that they are gay.

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is NOT the equalvant of gay dogging. It is a club run in a bar for the bear community to get together.

LOL - my mistake I thought it was the Phoenix Park where Emmet Stagg went jogging.:o:o

People are fully entitled to associate how and where they wish and they are not harming anyone.

An aside - I wear nice fashionable clothes -splash on the smelly stuff etc and take being called metrosexual as a compliment -but Im not gay.So I imagine some part of it has gotta be stereotyping about screaming fags and sexual predators.

I mean -you can get mugged in the City Centre wearing a suit and carrying a brief case ...........

krudler

yes, and I'm saying it's a narrow minded and backwards reason to dislike someone.

Theres no such thing as a wrong reason to dislike someone, I dont like people who are loud full stop, gay or not. People who havent yet figured out this thing called an "indoor voice" who dont realise to turn themselves down a tad when you're in someones house, or shout down the phone,or get overly excited about the smallest things, the "OMG!" crowd etc and I'm sure theres plenty of people who dont like me as I can come off as grumpy, my missus affectionaltely refers to me as Captain Grumpypants at times ( I like how I was instantly promoted to Captain, not Private Grumpypants or First Lieutenant Grumpypants ) but its just because i dont jump up and down shrieking like a lunatic when a song I like comes on in a pub, and I know plenty of annoying women who do that as well.

My closest gay friend is the least camp person you'd ever meet, and even he cant stand being around the stereotypical gay men who scream and have to be the centre of attention , think Jack from Will and Grace for a perfect example, either.

Nevyn

L31mr0d wrote: »

Ok you referred to them specifically as "screaming queens" in your previous post.
Why would you not refer to them likewise in public, if they where in fact "screaming queens"?

I was using the language used by someone else in the thread to make my point, it is not a turn of phrase I use.

L31mr0d wrote: »

To rephrase so you may answer it, if you seen some "screaming queens" and you commented, "people like that annoy me", and someone claimed you where homophobic, how would you defend yourself against that accusation?

I would ask the person who had accused me how they new the person I found to be annoying was gay, cos they are assuming they are which means they are perpetuating a stereotype.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Saying "I also dislike anyone who acts like that, regardless of their sexuality" clearly isn't enough, because everyone here who has said they dislike campness has said that also and it has been flatly ignored, in favour of criminalizing anyone who dislikes anything about Gay people. It's pathetic.

Effeminate men don't bother me, a person can be an effeminate man and not be a "shrieking queen" or a screaming emo or even gay or bisexual.

hobochris wrote: »

One thing that does annoy me about certain gay camp males(AKA Screeching queens) is how they feel the need to broadcast there sexuality any chance they get.

An hetro blokes never do that?

hobochris wrote: »

If the situation was reversed and there was a Hetro' person broadcasting their sexuality to all within ear shot in an annoying manor I'd say(although having never made a derogatory comment towards homosexual's) they would be stereotyped and branded as a Homophobe or fag hater.

Actually I also get annoyed by loud mouth hetro blokes commenting on what type sex act and with whom and on what they would do to women that pass by or passing judgment on them. I figure they are either immature, uncouth or maybe sexually insecure.

You do get the flip side in the gay communities, where hetro people are refereed to sneeringly to as 'breeders'.

Then again two people no matter what gender dry humping in public is never pretty tbh and I'd consider it rude.

hobochris wrote: »

Yes your gay, get over yourself, no one cares.

Maybe they are not gay but just effeminate in their manner and annoying.
And the state and law cares, gay people can not marry their partners, they still face discrimination and homosexuality was only decriminalized in this country in 1993, so it's not been even a decade yet.

hobochris wrote: »

I'm not sure if the screeching queen behavior is done in aid of attention seeking or if they believe there is some sort of shock value involved in broadcasting to the world that they are gay.

I know women how on on in the same notice me manner and sometimes they are just loud and larger then life or some times they are putting it on for notice to paper over the cracks by being big bold brassy and confident when put they don't feel like that inside at all.

The coming out process for some people is hard and they think that now that they are gay and out that they are meant to be that gay queen effeminate man stereotype cos that is what being a gay man is :rolleyes: and throw themselves into being it, until they figure out it's not them and not they way they have to be, which is why I think that highlighting that it is a falsely assumed stereotype is a good thing.

Angus Og

Have you ever wondered what makes a man react badly to his son being gay?

Just wondering, re the original post. I wonder if a lot of men thing they've failed as a father because their son is gay. I have two male cousins who came out, both with different results. What makes them similar is their macho fathers.

Strangely enough, one father accepted it straight away, maybe because he knew all along. The other was quite shocked, even though his son is very camp, and we all assumed he was gay, though no one said it.

Handsome Bob

Angus Og wrote: »

Have you ever wondered what makes a man react badly to his son being gay?

Just wondering, re the original post. I wonder if a lot of men thing they've failed as a father because their son is gay. I have two male cousins who came out, both with different results. What makes them similar is their macho fathers.

Strangely enough, one father accepted it straight away, maybe because he knew all along. The other was quite shocked, even though his son is very camp, and we all assumed he was gay, though no one said it.

Could be a number of things. As you said it might be because they felt they failed as a father. Sometimes they think it reflects badly on them, he feels like less of a man in the eyes of his friends because he produced a gay son. It could be a religious thing too.

Angus Og

Yeah, I think it's how they are seen by other men as fathers. Neither are religious.

One is a former UN soldier, the other is the manager of a construction company.

Dr Galen

well i know from speaking to my own father, he was of the opinion that it wasn't his business. He said that he wouldn't want or expect to know the details of my brothers sex life if he was straight so why would he want to know these things if he was gay.

I think, like Thaed points to, a certain amount of social stigma is still attached to being gay. As she rightly points out it been a very short period of time since homsexuality was made legal, I think its probabvly a bit optomistic to expect a huge social change like this kind of thing to happen, relatively speaking, overnight.

CDfm

As a Dad I can think of a lot worse things than a homosexual child. Heroin addiction or a cancer would be up there. As would mental illness.

I would be more concerned with my childrens happiness.

Boston

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There's a few reasons straight and gay guys don't mix so much.

Most gay guys won't talk about their personal life to straight guys. I guess they assume the straight guy won't want to know but sharing your personal life is pretty important to a proper friendship.

For some reason girls are more enthusiastic about going to gay clubs than straight guys. I guess its because women actually like dancing etc and most straight men just go to clubs to pull

Most straight guys have at some point fancied a girl but let on they were just friends. Most straight guys would ride their female friends if a no strings attached scenario came up. They assume a gay male friend would think the same about them. I'm not gay but if I had to bet I'd say they're probably right a fair amount of the time.

So seeing as gay/straight men don't mix much straight men can only rely on stereotypes they've come across. They think these men are pathetic and hence see gay men as inferior

Close. Basically it comes down to gay men feeling, rightly or wrongly,that they can't be themselves around heterosexual men. Sometimes this is for fear of being called "camp" or accused of being overly assertive about their sexuality. The majority of my friends and associates would be heterosexual.

CDfm wrote: »

I dont know any of those types or bears or whatever.

If a person is the type of person I would normally mix with then ok.So I wouldnt have any screaming queens in my social group but i also wouldnt have environmentalists etc. And i wouldnt know what a bear or a muscle guy is as I am not into the culture.

AFAIK - the gay scene just represents a small proportion of the gay community who camp it up and look for attention and its probably the exception.

So any gay friends I do have will be kind of normal looking and acting.

The gay scene is full of lots of people. It's hard to define. I went into a local Dublin gay bar a couple weeks ago and there was perhaps 20 guys standing around in Ireland rugby tops watching the Ireland vs France match. Theres also a fair number of Lesbians, Bi-sexuals and Heterosexuals on "the scene".

L31mr0d wrote: »

No but sometimes you won't be able to get a rational answer.

Take a person who picks their nose while talking to you, rolling it, then flicking it away. Why should an individual be repulsed at this. It needs to be cleaned and the manner in which an individual does this, and when they choose to do this is inconsequential to your interaction with them. If they are not making physical contact with you, and not flicking anything directly at you then you have no rational reason for it to annoy you or irritate you.

Yet the sight of it does disgust people, and in polite company you wouldn't stick your finger up your nose (I've always wondered about the disparity with someone sticking their finger in their ear though)

The example you gave is of something which is a health hasard. Behaviour like that is exactly how TB spread back in the day. You admit your problem isn't rational.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Also, you are now claiming that you also dislike screaming queens. If you where in a bunch of people and said "those screaming queens are annoying", and someone claimed you where homophobic, how would you defend yourself?

Note, it started off as camp, now it's moved onto "screaming queens". A screaming queen is a sub set of camp. You cited your issue was with camp gay males. Anyway, screaming queens are actively head wreckers, camp people need not be.

Nebit wrote: »

BUT i will say here and now that although 'campness' doesn't effect me, and im being honest it really doesn't! I would typically choose not to hang around with that sort of person, not because they are a 'camp' person but rather because, in most cases, i have little in common.

What on earth makes you think you'd have more or less in common with a camp person then any other person you meet? You're reading too much into what type of person a guys is based purely on superficial factors.

Nebit wrote: »

Hence!! not a sexuality thing (because im gay), not a confidence thing(because i dont mind people being camp), it is merely a personality thing.
I still give said 'camp' guys a chance to talk to me but to be honest conversations are short lived.
AND no im not insecure about my sexuality and NO im affraid of becoming a stereotype. This is just how i feel.

orly. I've met a few gay guys who define themselves relative to what they are supposedly not. Being camp doesn't define what a persons hobbies are, what college course they do, where they are from, what they do. Can you honestly say that the minute you meet a somewhat camp guys you don't immediately start to tick off boxes in your head?

Nebit wrote: »

ALSO i would like to say that my best friend has been called a homophobe before by other friends etc even gay men because he doesn't like 'campness' which is impossible since im like a brother to him and we hang around each other virtually everyday in college or out.
He has even went into a gay bar with me.
Seriously what the F*** is it with other gay men calling people a 'homophobe' when one expresses an opinion.

Depends on what the basis of the homophobia is. As I've said, I've known plenty who've been perfectly willing to accept and tolerate me, but not more effeminate gay guys. Lets be honest, it's not the campness, the shrillness or the loudness, it's the male femininity which is the issue. It might not be homophobic but it's definitely some form of hang up which people are right to call your friend on.

CDfm wrote: »

In the heterosexual "scene" there is a lot of diversity too. However, I cant remember the last time someone phoned me up and asked me did I want to come over for dinner and do his Missus. Though I am sure there are people like that.

Orly? I'll send you on a website. You could be having sex with some dudes wife as early as tonight.

hobochris wrote: »

One thing that does annoy me about certain gay camp males(AKA Screeching queens) is how they feel the need to broadcast there sexuality any chance they get.

If the situation was reversed and there was a Hetro' person broadcasting their sexuality to all within ear shot in an annoying manor I'd say(although having never made a derogatory comment towards homosexual's) they would be stereotyped and branded as a Homophobe or fag hater.

The difference is what you consider "broadcasting". I've heard people claim that two guys holding hands is "broadcasting" and shoving their sexuality in other people's faces. In any new grouping of people I'll generally pick up on whose straight, bi-curious and gay pretty quickly. People make reference to their sexuality all the times. The gay guys generally give themselves away by how closed lipped they are.

LegacyUser

@mystic monkey,

great to see your brother with such a support network around. I know my family were mostly ok with it. I am a fairly confident guy but I know that I have this deep ball of horrible feeling that I still keep with me from when I was a kid. It was this deep dark secret that I thought if anyone found out they would be after me with pitch forks and torches. My dad did actually mentioning disowning us if we were gay but that didn't happen, but as a 10 year old kid it frightnened the **** out of me to think that.

these things didn't happen but these things stay with you, the self loathing and the shame. I would advise any family members to deal with this now. If my family had said to me in a general sense "doesn't matter what you are we still love you" instead of throw away derogatory comments about gays it may have helped me so much.

line from a film dealing with this issue.

"Before you say anything think! ,think and remember that a child is listening."

Herbal Deity

Boston wrote: »

Lets be honest, it's not the campness, the shrillness or the loudness, it's the male femininity which is the issue.

No, no. For me anyway, it really is the shrillness and the loudness, the hyperactivity, the immaturity etc. Groups of teenage girls have the same effect on me. It has absolutely nothing to do with male femininity.

I'm wary of necessarily associating such traits with homosexual men, but there does at least seem to be a link between the two, even if it's all just media driven.

(I'm not going to mention the word camp, because I've no idea what the accepted definition is, and you seem to be correcting people above with your talk of subsets and whatnot).

L31mr0d

Thaedydal wrote: »

I would ask the person who had accused me how they new the person I found to be annoying was gay, cos they are assuming they are which means they are perpetuating a stereotype.

You are being pedantic regarding the scenario, and avoiding the question entirely.

Ok, lets say you knew these men where gay, through a friend of a friend, whatever, and you where accused of being homophobic for voicing a dislike of how loud they where being. How would you defend yourself against it (because it is exactly what is happening to other posters in this thread)

Thaedydal wrote: »

Effeminate men don't bother me, a person can be an effeminate man and not be a "shrieking queen" or a screaming emo or even gay or bisexual.

Neither do they bother me. What is your point?

Also please amend the misquotations in the rest of your post. I didn't say any of those things.

L31mr0d

Boston wrote: »

The example you gave is of something which is a health hasard. Behaviour like that is exactly how TB spread back in the day. You admit your problem isn't rational.

That's moronic, the reaction is not one of "hey that person is trying to cause a health hazard", but one of "that's disgusting and irritating". People pick their noses, frequently, it just isn't seen as something you do in public because people are repulsed and annoyed with it.

Anyway, I could equally make an example of a person that flatulates openly when you are around them. I suppose your Zen acceptance of all that walks the earth would lead you to breath in deeply the putrid gases from anyone right?

Also, yes I do admit my opinion is not rational. I have no rational reason for disliking Sprouts and Cauliflower, or Reggae music... etc.

Are you so deluded as to hold the belief that it is possible for a human to take on the robotic demeanour of a truly rational individual?

Boston wrote: »

Note, it started off as camp, now it's moved onto "screaming queens". A screaming queen is a sub set of camp. You cited your issue was with camp gay males. Anyway, screaming queens are actively head wreckers, camp people need not be.

Semantics. It's usually a good sign that a person doesn't have a leg to stand on when they start arguing the meaning of a word.

Plus I made the point of keeping "screaming queens" in quotes as they aren't my words.

Nevyn

L31mr0d wrote: »

You are being pedantic regarding the scenario, and avoiding the question entirely.

Ok, lets say you knew these men where gay, through a friend of a friend, whatever, and you where accused of being homophobic for voicing a dislike of how loud they where being. How would you defend yourself against it (because it is exactly what is happening to other posters in this thread)

I would say that hating some of the behaviour of soccer hooligans does not mean I hate or fear all soccer fans.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Also please amend the misquotations in the rest of your post. I didn't say any of those things.

Done.

L31mr0d

Thaedydal wrote: »

I would say that hating some of the behaviour of soccer hooligans does not mean I hate or fear all soccer fans.

It's not similar, Soccer Hooligans actively aim to cause damage to property and hurt others. A "screaming queen" is harming nobody. Your dislike for their manner is clearly homophobic as you have no rational reason for it.

fonecrusher1

Right thats the end of that.

So who wants to talk about fat people?

Nevyn

L31mr0d wrote: »

It's not similar, Soccer Hooligans actively aim to cause damage to property and hurt others. A "screaming queen" is harming nobody. Your dislike for their manner is clearly homophobic as you have no rational reason for it.

Any behaviour which intrudes on me I don't like, the noise level of a shirill person irritates me the same way as people having very loud conversations on the phone on the bus or playing crappy music on the phone on the bus, or the noise of a group of spanish students on a bus.

It's the lack of consideration which I consider rude and there for dislike it.
Disliking the manners of a flock of young spanish students on a bus doesn't make me racist no more then the shrill behaviour of person who is gay makes me homophobic.

Oh and phoibic from phobia which means it's rooted in fear, hate from fear
I don't fear or hate anyone based on the 1 fact that they are homosexual, ergo I am not homophobic.

Herbal Deity

Thaeydal, I completely agree with you.

I just don't know why you thanked Boston's earlier post, as it seems completely at odds with what you are saying now...

Nevyn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Thaeydal, I completely agree with you.

I just don't know why you thanked Boston's earlier post, as it seems completely at odds with what you are saying now...

Which one?

fonecrusher1

Thaedydal wrote: »

Any behaviour which intrudes on me I don't like, the noise level of a shirill person irritates me the same way as people having very loud conversations on the phone on the bus or playing crappy music on the phone on the bus, or the noise of a group of spanish students on a bus.

It's the lack of consideration which I consider rude and there for dislike it.
Disliking the manners of a flock of young spanish students on a bus doesn't make me racist no more then the shrill behaviour of person who is gay makes me homophobic.

Oh and phoibic from phobia which means it's rooted in fear, hate from fear
I don't fear or hate anyone based on the 1 fact that they are homosexual, ergo I am not homophobic.

I would agree with this.
Because you find someones loudness irritating doesn't mean your racist or homophobic or any other dramatic accusation.

What if your sitting next to a very overweight person on a flight & you find that his/her personal space is intruding on yours?

Its annoying but it doesn't mean i hate him/her.

Boston

L31mr0d wrote: »

That's moronic, the reaction is not one of "hey that person is trying to cause a health hazard", but one of "that's disgusting and irritating". People pick their noses, frequently, it just isn't seen as something you do in public because people are repulsed and annoyed with it.

The reason you find it disgusting and not say, someone blowing their nose, is because of engrained health concerns. you have a subconscious thought process, even if your conscious one is somewhat lacking.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Anyway, I could equally make an example of a person that flatulates openly when you are around them. I suppose your Zen acceptance of all that walks the earth would lead you to breath in deeply the putrid gases from anyone right?

That directly affect you. You've yet to rationalise why you hate some bloke sitting acrross from you who you don't know whose had no interaction with you.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Semantics. It's usually a good sign that a person doesn't have a leg to stand on when they start arguing the meaning of a word.

Plus I made the point of keeping "screaming queens" in quotes as they aren't my words.

It's not semantics. They're two completely different things. You seem happy in your total ignorance of the issue. The meaning of a word is important. You opened up your "contributions" to this thread using the word "hate" and ascribing that word to camp people.

Now it turns out you're slightly annoyed by over loud and shrill screaming queens. Quiet the turn around.

L31mr0d wrote: »

You are being pedantic regarding the scenario, and avoiding the question entirely.

Ok, lets say you knew these men where gay, through a friend of a friend, whatever, and you where accused of being homophobic for voicing a dislike of how loud they where being. How would you defend yourself against it (because it is exactly what is happening to other posters in this thread)

So now it's a problem with loud people. What does it matter wrt to sexuality, greed, gender, whatever. If someone is loud and annoying they are loud and annoying. Frankly it highlights your prejudices. If a gay guy is loud he's a "screaming queen", anyone else is just loud. Why bring in sexuality, whats your issue? Let me guess an irrational one. Well done, pat on the back for you.

L31mr0d

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I just don't know why you thanked Boston's earlier post, as it seems completely at odds with what you are saying now...

Thaedydal wrote: »

Which one?

I'm assuming this one, Post #27

You yourself have issues with certain mannerisms of a type of gay person, yet you thanked his post which was basically calling anyone who wasn't tolerant of gay mannerisms a "retard" or "moron".

Boston

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I would agree with this.
Because you find someones loudness irritating doesn't mean your racist or homophobic or any other dramatic accusation.

Ok, so you're telling me you've no problem with effeminate gay guys.

Boston

L31mr0d wrote: »

I'm assuming this one, Post #27

You yourself have issues with certain mannerisms of a type of gay person, yet you thanked his post which was basically calling anyone who wasn't tolerant of gay mannerisms a "retard" or "moron".

Not mannerisms of a gay person. Nothing to do with being gay. You're the making the association.

Nevyn

L31mr0d wrote: »

You yourself have issues with certain mannerisms of a type of gay person,

No, them being gay does not factor into it, if I automatically assumed they were that way due to them being gay then that would be homophobic.

L31mr0d wrote: »

yet you thanked his post which was basically calling anyone who wasn't tolerant of gay mannerisms a "retard" or "moron".

I do think anyone who lumps people together and assumes that the idiosyncrasy which that person has, which they find to be annoying is due to then being gay to be at best unaware and ill informed.

fonecrusher1

Boston wrote: »

Ok, so you're telling me you've no problem with effeminate gay guys.

No of course i don't have a problem with them.

But if they were very loud & attention seeking then i would be a bit annoyed.

Its just bad manners.

Boston

Thaedydal wrote: »

I do think anyone who lumps people together and assumes that the idiosyncrasy which that person has, which they find to be annoying is due to then being gay to be at best unaware and ill informed.

Exactly. The issue here is that you're assuming that they are loud and annoying because they're gay. You don't see the problem with that because you accept that not all gay people are loud and annoying, however it's still judging someone based on their sexuality.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

No of course i don't have a problem with them.

But if they were very loud & attention seeking then i would be a bit annoyed.

Its just bad manners.

Grand. No problem so. It's just that when I've pushed people on their issue with campness in the past it usually comes down to effeminate men being outside their comfort zone.

L31mr0d

Boston wrote: »

...

Boston, I find you to be a person that has a heavy chip on his shoulder about something (I hope you can actually talk to someone about it one day to get help). Not only do you twist my words, but you conveniently forget points I've made earlier that answer your questions.

I feel sorry for you, I really do, as I don't understand why you feel the need to do this.

To summarize:
1. I don't specifically dislike anything about Gay men that I wouldn't also dislike in other people also if they exhibited such traits (see Post #29)
2. I never said I hated anything, rather it is irritating. I associate with people regardless of the their temporary idiosyncrasy that may annoy me (see Post #26) I also wouldn't dislike a person before I'd met them.

Thaedydal seems to be as equally confused regarding this. This thread is regarding Homosexuality, why would I come into it and say "I don't like loud people in general", I don't, but it is not relevant to the thread. Of the gay men I've known that felt the need to let me know of their sexuality, they acted in a manner stereotypical of this sexuality.

The manner in which a gay man acts that is shrill, loud and camp is pretty unique to that form of sexuality (how else has it become a stereotype). I've never met a straight man who acts like that and wasn't purposefully impersonating a gay person.

But if a straight man where to act like that, it would be equally annoying. I don't differentiate based on sexuality.

It's this politically correct BS that is more annoying. To even tag a mannerism to a sexuality is somehow wrong. Straight, gay and bi should all be blurred into a homogeneous group with no distinctions, characteristics or mannerisms that define them.

Boston

Ignorant,hateful and condescending, a nice combination. The problem with your generalisations and labeling based on sexuality have been pointed out to you repeatedly throughout this thread. If you've no interest in taking them on bord I suggest you reframe from further posting.