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Homophobia, Homosexuality and Men

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  • 27-02-2010 7:17pm
    #1
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭


    I'm writing this prompted by a conversation I had recently with my brother. He's a good 10 years younger and recently "came out". We were laughing about the fact that no one in the family really batted an eyelid. My parents basically said, "oh thats cool, same rules for you buddy, no bf's allowed to stay over in your room etc etc. He didn't really expect any real negativity, but still he was a bit surprised.

    It contrasts with the stories some of my gay friends have told me about their coming out. Getting chucked out, castigated by fathers and family etc. I'd love to think that sort of thing was all in the past but I doubt it.

    Personally speaking, it doesn't bother me, who you fancy or where you decide to put it. I've done all the same things with gay friends that I would with straight ones, I fail to see why their sexuality would alter this in the slightest.

    I'd be interested to know posters thoughts on the above and whatever else you can think of. Does it make someone less of a man to be gay? Do the sterotypes still exist in your mind, regarding femininity and homosexuality? What would you do if your son told you he was gay?

    While it doesn't mean anyone can be outside decent norms of behaviour, remember we do have anonymous posting here. Maybe you'd like to contribute, but don't want your views linked to your account for some reason. Just log out and you can take advantage of this feature.


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    #2
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    I really don't give a **** if someone is straight or gay. I hate campness/loudness, which apparently makes me homophobic.


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    #3
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    amacachi wrote: »
    I really don't give a **** if someone is straight or gay. I hate campness/loudness, which apparently makes me homophobic.

    I have a load of gay friends, and the ones I like hanging out with the most are the ones who arent screaming queens. drama lovers I cant stand in general anyway, straight or gay. I cant stand how you cant find a gay guy annoying purely for the fact he's annoying, it always has to be just because he's gay.

    My ex gf's brother was gay, came out a few years back and his parents, being typical catholics basically accepted it but dont ever tell anyone, and prefer if nobody ever mentions it in the house. They openly criticised him in front of me as well which i thought was really bad form


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    #4
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,111 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    krudler wrote: »
    I cant stand how you cant find a gay guy annoying purely for the fact he's annoying, it always has to be just because he's gay.
    Yep. I've four gay mates*. The thing is its not the camp bit. One of these guys is such a queen. He'd be happy enough with the description actually :D But he's nowhere close to annoying. Welll.... :P:D. He'd cheer up the dead, is one of the strongest men I know and he's one helluva guy. Gay/straight meh. Grand or pain in the neck is where its at.


    *It can be a generational thing too. Id be pretty much alone having gay mates among straight guys my age I know. It seems to be different for younger guys though which is a good thing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #5
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    krudler wrote: »
    I have a load of gay friends, and the ones I like hanging out with the most are the ones who arent screaming queens. drama lovers I cant stand in general anyway, straight or gay. I cant stand how you cant find a gay guy annoying purely for the fact he's annoying, it always has to be just because he's gay.

    My ex gf's brother was gay, came out a few years back and his parents, being typical catholics basically accepted it but dont ever tell anyone, and prefer if nobody ever mentions it in the house. They openly criticised him in front of me as well which i thought was really bad form
    Aye, I don't have any gay mates (that I know of) but there were a few lads in school who were gay as it turned out and I'd not treat them any differently now if I met them.
    Seeing someone dancing along ticking every box on the stereotype list, I would generally find them pretty annoying.


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    #6
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I'm an occasional poster, but I'm unregged because my username is ...well, my name!

    My older sister is gay, is in a long term relationship and I think of her partner as my sister-in-law. I just think of them as a couple, like any other and luckier than most.

    What I often get asked when I mention my sister or any of her friends is 'which one is the man?' 'Are they butch?' 'does she hate men?' and any amount of absolute sh!t like that.

    And it comes from both men and women, and I'm even asked if I feel 'threatened' when I'm at a lesbian event with them, or in the company of lesbians. Its often suggested that I make it clear I'm straight early on, so I'm not 'hassled'.

    It would be funny if it wasn't so disgustingly prevalent.


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    #7
    DazMarz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,493 ✭✭✭DazMarz


    Don't care if a person is gay or straight. I've no issues with it. Have a few friends who are gay, and I have to say they are all dead-on guys and I get along grand with them.

    It's a pity that it is such an issue in this day and age.


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    #8
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Mystik Monkey, theres an active LGB forum on boards if your brother is ever looking for some advice.

    amacachi wrote: »
    I really don't give a **** if someone is straight or gay. I hate campness/loudness, which apparently makes me homophobic.

    Hate is a very strong word. Some people are camp, some people are loud, some people crude, some people are stupid, some people are obnoxious some people are blah. Hate requires a level of emotional investment which would be abnormal for you to have in the absence of some underline "ism"


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    #9
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Boston wrote: »
    Mystik Monkey, theres an active LGB forum on boards if your brother is ever looking for some advice.




    Hate is a very strong word. Some people are camp, some people are loud, some people crude, some people are stupid, some people are obnoxious some people are blah. Hate requires a level of emotional investment which would be abnormal for you to have in the absence of some underline "ism"

    cheers Boston, I've actually pointed him in that direction before. AFAIK he found it v helpful. Despite the fact that he didn't have huge issues from a family/friends perspective to deal with, we've talked about the personal issues he's had to deal with. The thoughts of being abnormal and that there might be something wrong with him. By no means has it been a garden of roses for him, nonetheless, it hasn't been all bad either.

    As for your point about hate. Well, I think hate has kinda slipped into everyday usage, without people really realising just how strong a word its meant to be. I'd say the poster probably means strongly dislike, as opposed to outright hate. Feel free to correct me there though Amacachi.


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    #10
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Hate, strongly dislike, whatever. :pac:


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    #11
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    why, what harm do they cause you?


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    #12
    theredletter
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭theredletter


    I have to agree with Boston on that one. I know where you're coming from but I think when straight men mention 'I don't hate gay guys, I hate campness', they are still creating a connection between the two forms of behavior. Campness is a personal trait that a lot of straight men can have, but homosexuality is a (arguable, but imo) a biological trait.

    In fairness, Boston, gay men are the worst for labeling 'camp'/ 'straight-acting' which is completely out of line. Your whole personality is summed up in one word. I can be camp. Particularly around babies/ puppies/ summer strolls. And I can be a thundering bitch. Particularly on bad days, when under pressure and feeling down. I can be 'masculine'. Particularly when I talk about politics, argue and stand up for people.

    Suppose it all boils down to gender traits moreso than personality.


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    #13
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    I find their presence annoying, I find people talking about Eastenders annoying, I find people constantly talking during lectures annoying, I find screechy girls annoying, I find 99% of what 99% of people do annoying. "Campness" happens to be one of the things that gets on my nerves, whether the person in question is gay or not.


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    #14
    Angus Og
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Angus Og


    I'll probably sound insulting by saying it's kind of amusing. Some of the camp things I've heard would make you laugh.


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    #15
    theredletter
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭theredletter


    amacachi wrote: »
    I find their presence annoying, I find people talking about Eastenders annoying, I find people constantly talking during lectures annoying, I find screechy girls annoying, I find 99% of what 99% of people do annoying. "Campness" happens to be one of the things that gets on my nerves, whether the person in question is gay or not.

    Very fair point. And Queens of the gay variety can actually be hilarious. You just have to be in the right mood, which you may never find amacachi!


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    #16
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    Do the sterotypes still exist in your mind, regarding femininity and homosexuality?
    I don't know if stereotype is the word I'd use. I've known quite a few gay men over the years and there seem to be some patterns that in some areas, they have more tastes and interests that are like one would see in women. But I don't think that is that "narrow" - if you think of the huge variety of women that are out there.

    One example: I was listening to NewsTalk during the week and there was a piece on a family business in Kildare (?) that made scented candles. They said 95% (off the top of their head) of the candles were sold by women but gay men also liked them.

    I see liking scented candles as neither a positive trait, nor a negative trait.


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    #17
    Nervous Wreck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,115 ✭✭✭✭Nervous Wreck


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    Personally speaking, it doesn't bother me, who you fancy or where you decide to put it.

    Laughed hard at this!


    Tbh, I know a lot of gay men. Some are overly flamboyant and feminine, others are way more manly than me. But apart from asking them how their boyfriend is or how their love life in general is, their sexuality barely registers with me anymore. On the issue of family, I think my dad would be weirded out if me or my bro were to come out but he wouldn't really have anything negative to say. The rest of my family would just make filthy jokes for the next few days and then settle back into the norm. They're good dudes! :)


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I know for a fact that if I had told my mam I was gay she wouldn't have been even slightly bothered. Like the time when I was ten and I told her I was going to be a vegetarian she never batted an eyelid, she simply said "that's grand but I've already made spaghetti bolognese so you'll have to start tomorrow" Not quite the same thing but she's very much the accepting sort :). My Dad probably would have been (as nervous put it) at little weirded out, but only initially, he wouldn't have loved me any less or treated me any different.

    I can understand parents being apprehensive about their children being homosexual but to be fair, in most cases I hope it would be out of love and concern more than anything else. Concern for the prejudice they have to face etc.

    It makes absolutely no difference to my life what your sexuality is. You are who you are regardless.

    Edit: I'm not sure I actually answered the OP's question here :rolleyes:!
    As I said above the only reason I would be in any way upset if a child of mine told me they were gay is that I would be worried for them, I guess it would upset me if they told me in their twenties or something as it would mean they've kept it a secret for quite a while. I hope that my child/children always know that they can tell me anything and everything but only time will tell. As for it making you less of a man, of course it doesn't, a man is a man, a woman is a woman, that's a gender thing (putting trans-gender aside of course). Your sexuality doesn't define your gender.


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    #19
    Will
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,183 ✭✭✭✭Will


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    Does it make someone less of a man to be gay? Do the sterotypes still exist in your mind, regarding femininity and homosexuality? What would you do if your son told you he was gay?

    If some guy is gay he's not any less of a man in my eyes. Someone's sexuality has no impact on how I interact with em.

    Some guys I know who are gay are a mix between the stereotype, mainly fairly down to earth though. Some guys I know who are straight act like stereotypical gay men. So totally depends on your personality.

    If I'd a son and he said he was gay? I'd ask him when are we having the boyfriend over for some dinner :)


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    #20
    Mimikyu
    Registered Users Posts: 18,912 ✭✭✭✭Mimikyu


    This post has been deleted.


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    #21
    Angus Og
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Angus Og


    Some people just don't understand that humans aren't defined by sexuality. It's sad that they dismiss a person for that reason and miss out on knowing the actual person.


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    #22
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    amacachi wrote: »
    I find their presence annoying, I find people talking about Eastenders annoying, I find people constantly talking during lectures annoying, I find screechy girls annoying, I find 99% of what 99% of people do annoying. "Campness" happens to be one of the things that gets on my nerves, whether the person in question is gay or not.

    hmm, angry young man.
    Angus Og wrote: »
    Some people just don't understand that humans aren't defined by sexuality. It's sad that they dismiss a person for that reason and miss out on knowing the actual person.

    Some people allow their sexuality to define their entire life's. How many times have you encountered lads who live for going out on the pull and never stop banging on about this bird or that bird?


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    #23
    Angus Og
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Angus Og


    No, I really meant, defining other people, not defining yourself. People can dismiss other people without ever getting to know them, just because they happen to be gay.


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    #24
    Snowie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,048 ✭✭✭✭Snowie


    When I was in my early 20s I was very uncomfortable with gay men..
    I dunno why incerrtain about my self maybe I dunno i just felt uncomfortable around gay men...

    Now adays not really bothered its who you are,,, Tho really camp gay people annoy me a lot....

    I dont think to a degree What sexuality you are making you more of a man we all got a comfort zones... I mean i would imaggine it takes balls to tell you r fammilly your gay/.... smae way it takes balls for me to do the things ive done or the same way it takes balls to a commit to a job etc.....

    I would never say that just because a blokes gay he cant a straight man can do its more so weather he wants to or has the bottel to do it we all have our comfortzones.....


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    #25
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Mystik Monkey wrote: »
    Does it make someone less of a man to be gay?

    Not in my eyes. There's nothing that gets me more about society than people attempting to immasculise young men, that's the product of three years of Social Science. ;)
    Do the sterotypes still exist in your mind, regarding femininity and homosexuality?
    Not in my mind, but I won't pretend that's the way I've always been, I have had to learn that through life experiences. I grew up being fed the stereotypical image of gay people, so it's something that I have had to deconstruct.
    What would you do if your son told you he was gay?
    I'd accept it without a problem, I know how crappy it is to have those you look up to in life attempt to make you feel inferior. That is something I could never do to a child. I was watching Lost the other day and Jack said something to his son that I'm not afraid to say welled me up;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBSo0aMc8Uw


    Skip to 1:22 if want to hear what he said. :)


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    #26
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Wouldn't bother me. I think we've had enough centuries of the Church making such a big deal over sex. It's just sex.

    Actually a persons taste in films would probably be more important to me than their sexual orientation.

    Although, I have to admit to being more drawn to lesbians than males, for the same reason as George from Seinfeld :D

    George Costanza: Ooh, a lesbian sighting. They're so fascinating, why is that? Because they don't want us. You've got to respect that.

    Would have to agree with amacachi though on the campness thing. I've only known and worked with a handful of gay men and they where all loud and camp (I'd actually be interested to know why this is?) I guess I may have also worked with some normal Gay men, but they didn't feel the need to shove their sexuality in my face. I'd say it's a case of the loud minority giving the majority a bad name.

    Basically, Will from Will & Grace was sound and I could imagine him being a friend of mine, Jack on the other hand would irritate the hell out of me.


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    #27
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    L31mr0d wrote: »
    Would have to agree with amacachi though on the campness thing. I've only known and worked with a handful of gay men and they where all loud and camp (I'd actually be interested to know why this is?) I guess I may have also worked with some normal Gay men, but they didn't feel the need to shove their sexuality in my face. I'd say it's a case of the loud minority giving the majority a bad name.

    Maybe you've worked with loads more and never knew it because they showed no outwardly signs? I've only ever known a handful of heterosexuals. They're the ones who talk about getting laid all the time and drink larger right?

    I was in a pub recently enough and somehow (it sure as fuk wan't me who brought it up) the conversation went towards gays-ex-girlfriends and then onto camp gay guys. One of the lads remarked that he'd never met a non-camp gay guy at which point I leaned in, showed him a photo of me and my partner. I could see in an instance his entire perception of things had changed. I happen to be one of the most masculine guys you'll ever meet.

    But yea know, I really tire of this nonsense attitude that its somehow ok to dislike the camp ones "just cause". Loudness is often cited as the reason. I know a lot of camp gay guys, few are loud about it. If you're going to have an issue with someone because they speak with a inflection then I'm perfectly entitled to think you're a retard for it. I know lads who wear make up, dress effeminately and speak with a slips, but so the fuk the what. That doesn't make them bad people, that doesn't make them deserving of your contempt.

    Some of you guys are sitting here patting each other on the back because you're ok with the hetronormative ones but "strongly dislike" the ones outside your comfort zone. Do you think that impresses me or anyone like me? Do you think you're deserving of some form of gold star? You're just as narrow minded and thick as the fools who "just don't like people from <insert county>" or whatever other ridiculous thing.

    I recall a mate who stopped being a mate after I came out. You see he wasn't homophobic, he was prefectly happy to accept my mate who was a camp gay guy. My mate fitted into his little box of a gay man being "basically a woman". I, on the other hand, am a bloke, no two ways about it. That he couldn't accept, that he was quite vocal. Of course never to my face since he was scared ****less of me.

    This is the Irish mentality though. Where other cultures try to strive for full acceptance and tolerance, we just congratulate the moron who happens to not be as bigoted, backwards and narrow minded as the other moron.


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    #28
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    I'd have two questions Boston, and please don't feel ou have to answer these directly, I'm not directing them specifically at you.

    Firstly, on the subject of campness etc. Where does this link between it and being gay come from? I've known straight camp guys and gay camp guys. The prevailing attitude seems to be that it is a homosexual attribute. I'd be genuinely interested to know where this stems from?

    Secondly, what is it about the camp/loud gay people that posters don't like? Is it a feeling of being threatened by the confidence that it seems such people have? As a group of people, we Irish don't seem to like it when people are overly confident. Does it stem from that? Or is it as Boston says, because its out of the comfort zone.


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    #29
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    L31mr0d wrote: »
    I guess I may have also worked with some normal Gay men, but they didn't feel the need to shove their sexuality in my face.
    Boston wrote: »
    Maybe you've worked with loads more and never knew it because they showed no outwardly signs?

    Yeah thanks for repeating exactly what I said.

    You seem to be quite an angry little chappy, take a deep breath and chill out. This thread is specifically about homosexuality, which is why I'm keeping my posts within those borders. Gay men being shrill is as irritating to me as slappers cackling, or people who suck their fingers loudly instead of using a napkin.

    Like I said though, this has nothing to do with their sexuality, rather their personality. It is completely normal to dislike an individual because of their personality traits. You seem to be a person that is a case in point, I'm sure a myriad of people annoy and irritate you because you dislike aspects of their personality and opinions ;)


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    #30
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    Boston wrote: »
    Maybe you've worked with loads more and never knew it because they showed no outwardly signs? I've only ever known a handful of heterosexuals. They're the ones who talk about getting laid all the time and drink larger right?

    I was in a pub recently enough and somehow (it sure as fuk wan't me who brought it up) the conversation went towards gays-ex-girlfriends and then onto camp gay guys. One of the lads remarked that he'd never met a non-camp gay guy at which point I leaned in, showed him a photo of me and my partner. I could see in an instance his entire perception of things had changed. I happen to be one of the most masculine guys you'll ever meet.

    But yea know, I really tire of this nonsense attitude that its somehow ok to dislike the camp ones "just cause". Loudness is often cited as the reason. I know a lot of camp gay guys, few are loud about it. If you're going to have an issue with someone because they speak with a inflection then I'm perfectly entitled to think you're a retard for it. I know lads who wear make up, dress effeminately and speak with a slips, but so the fuk the what. That doesn't make them bad people, that doesn't make them deserving of your contempt.

    Some of you guys are sitting here patting each other on the back because you're ok with the hetronormative ones but "strongly dislike" the ones outside your comfort zone. Do you think that impresses me or anyone like me? Do you think you're deserving of some form of gold star? You're just as narrow minded and thick as the fools who "just don't like people from <insert county>" or whatever other ridiculous thing.

    I recall a mate who stopped being a mate after I came out. You see he wasn't homophobic, he was prefectly happy to accept my mate who was a camp gay guy. My mate fitted into his little box of a gay man being "basically a woman". I, on the other hand, am a bloke, no two ways about it. That he couldn't accept, that he was quite vocal. Of course never to my face since he was scared ****less of me.

    This is the Irish mentality though. Where other cultures try to strive for full acceptance and tolerance, we just congratulate the moron who happens to not be as bigoted, backwards and narrow minded as the other moron.

    What do you want? Some sort of round of applause because you're a homosexual man that acts normally?
    Seems to me there isn't anything that a heterosexual person can add to this thread without being criticized or demonized?

    I worked with a gay bloke in Australia & he was sound as a pound & he found overly camp loud gay people annoying.

    You see what im getting at?


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    #31
    Giselle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    That was a fantastic post Boston.

    I think the reason some posters are uncomfortable with campness is because it reminds them loud and clear that they are in the presence of a man who has sex with other men. A fact they prefer to ignore.

    The more traditionally-straight-appearing gay man is someone who's sexuality isn't on display so they don't have to deal with it.

    Its homophobia, because its alright to be gay, provided they don't have to acknowledge it, see it, think about it, interact with it.

    As for 'shoving their sexuality in our faces' Lol.

    Every time a straight man makes a lewd comment about a woman, thats EXACTLY what he does, but somehow thats ok.


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