Homophobia, Homosexuality and Men

L31mr0d

Boston wrote: »

Ignorant,hateful and condescending, a nice combination. The problem with your generalisations and labeling based on sexuality have been pointed out to you repeatedly throughout this thread. If you've no interest in taking them on bord I suggest you reframe from further posting.

Again. You seem to somehow misunderstand and misconstrue posts in the most negative manner possible. I've read some of your other posts on other subjects and it seems to be a common reaction regardless. I just find it odd that you feel the need to react like this.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough, if so, I apologise.

Perhaps I can rephrase my point as being "I dislike gay men that propagate the negative stereotype associated with them". This is tied to their sexuality because it has become a stereotype, I find gay men that propagate this to be annoying.

CDfm

Jeez guys - I am sure if you substitute tatoos and piercings for effeminate we all have our likes and dislikes and the type of people we are comfortable with.Sorry Will -but ya know what I mean.

I know a black american who told me once that he had all this security to keep the n****** out. I got on great with the guy and would do more then redneck trailer trash.

A rule of thumb I use if the person is the type of person I would go for a drink or a coffee with anyway then I would probably get on with them irrespective of their colour, creed,gender or sexual orientation.

As regards someone being "straight acting" that as a label is bollocks and its just acting normally as opposed to camping it up.

Nevyn

L31mr0d wrote: »

Thaedydal seems to be as equally confused regarding this. This thread is regarding Homosexuality, why would I come into it and say "I don't like loud people in general", I don't, but it is not relevant to the thread. Of the gay men I've known that felt the need to let me know of their sexuality, they acted in a manner stereotypical of this sexuality.

All the gay men you know are gay does not equal all gay men.

L31mr0d wrote: »

The manner in which a gay man acts that is shrill, loud and camp is pretty unique to that form of sexuality (how else has it become a stereotype). I've never met a straight man who acts like that and wasn't purposefully impersonating a gay person.

It's not unique to that sexuality.

L31mr0d wrote: »

But if a straight man where to act like that, it would be equally annoying. I don't differentiate based on sexuality.

:rolleyes:

L31mr0d wrote: »

It's this politically correct BS that is more annoying. To even tag a mannerism to a sexuality is somehow wrong.

Yes it is, as it creates an incorrect stereotype of gay men and damages people's ideas of who and what gay men are.

L31mr0d wrote: »

Straight, gay and bi should all be blurred into a homogeneous group with no distinctions, characteristics or mannerisms that define them.

Yes it's called people, annoying people are annoying no mater what race, creed, gender, sexuality or foot ball team they support.

L31mr0d

Thaedydal wrote: »

All the gay men you know are gay does not equal all gay men.

Did I say I did Please read my posts in this thread, specifically the ones on the first page, which both you and your friend Boston seem to easily forget (particularly note how similar my original posts are in regards to your post regarding "screaming queens", I guess Boston only knows how to understand posts from people he's friends with)

You know what I'm out. Next time I won't answer honestly in a thread like this or even take part, and I'm sure it will be the case for all those who felt that it was safe to acknowledge a trait they'd witnessed in gay men as being annoying, because, like Nebit said, all a person can expect is their opinion to be skewed and for them to be demonized.

All threads like this do is unearth the insecurities in gay men for stereotypes associated with them, demonize anyone willing to acknowledge them and bury any form of discussion regarding why these stereotypes exist.

Boston

Sometimes it's hard being a straight guy. Hang in there.

Herbal Deity

A lot of the responses on here are extremely lacking in clarity.

That we should not associate homosexuality with the shrill, attention seeking, hyperactive, immature stereotype, is a good point. I don't believe, however, that it has been made coherently, and then there's this bull which has been posted about fear of feminine men.

Boston, your posts are frequently condescending, and you are always looking for a fight. You're not stupid, you could be a great contributor, but you frequently go off on very angry tirades, often making assumptions and casting aspersions on other posters. I really don't understand why this is...

Dr Galen

Boston wrote: »

Sometimes it's hard being a straight guy. Hang in there.

You and I both know there's no need for comments like this Boston

fonecrusher1

Boston wrote: »

Grand. No problem so.

I don't care if you did have a problem with something i said.

Calm yourself down a bit & get down off that soap box, i'd say you've hogged it for long enough.

Im sure as a gay man you've probably been the victim of stereotyping all your life so when you think about it you of all people should be able to avoid stereotyping others.

Nevyn

Ever stop to think that maybe he'd not a gay man as in not homosexual, yes he has said that he has a boyfriend but that does not automatically mean he is homosexual he could be bisexual.

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

Ever stop to think that maybe he'd not a gay man as in not homosexual, yes he has said that he has a boyfriend but that does not automatically mean he is homosexual he could be bisexual.

Why does that matter?

Nevyn

Becuase again it's an assumption people make, people often like to think of sexuality and gender as being binary and that is not always the case.

Herbal Deity

I'm not sure if that's the best example, nor is it very on topic.

Also, I could be pedantic and say it's not ternary either Perhaps we should abandon the labels "homosexual", "heterosexual" and "bisexual" and instead people could identify with coordinates on the sexuality continuum

Nevyn

so you think it's off topic, so should there be a thread then entitled
Biphobia, Bisexuality and Men?

CDfm

Stop confusing me.

I am totally fine with the homosexual community.

I even had two college friends now with female partners who had a fling.

I dont think anyone has ever said to me " I'm bisexual" and I'm probably better off.Too much for my little head to handle this evening.

P.C.

Boston wrote: »

I don't know what your point is? Perhaps it's that people dislike others for the most stupid and trivial reasons? Agreed.

...

If you've never met the person, never talked to them, never interacted with them in any way, then no it's not rational to dislike them. Essencially you dislike the idea of camp men. That's like me disliking the idea of people from swords.

Read the whole thread, and this post stood out.

Disliking the idea of people from Swords might not seem rational to me, but - if that is the way you feel, that is the way you feel. Who am I to tell you that your feelings are wrong?

The way somone feels is not right or wrong - appropriate or inappropriate.
It is the way they feel.

This thread seems to be about accepting gay men, or fathers accepting that their son might be/is gay.

BUT - then it degenerates into not accepting the way some posters feel. :eek:

I am not going to tell you how I feel about the topic, as I am not going to accept other telling me my feelings are wrong or inappropriate. :mad:

Boston

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Im sure as a gay man you've probably been the victim of stereotyping all your life so when you think about it you of all people should be able to avoid stereotyping others.

I've not stereotyped anyone. The only stereotyping I've ever experience has been people assuming I'm a scum bag because I my accent and where I grew up. Maybe thats why I don't like labels.

Btw, I'm not gay.

P.C. wrote: »

Read the whole thread, and this post stood out.

Disliking the idea of people from Swords might not seem rational to me, but - if that is the way you feel, that is the way you feel. Who am I to tell you that your feelings are wrong?

The way somone feels is not right or wrong - appropriate or inappropriate.
It is the way they feel.

This thread seems to be about accepting gay men, or fathers accepting that their son might be/is gay.

BUT - then it degenerates into not accepting the way some posters feel. :eek:

I am not going to tell you how I feel about the topic, as I am not going to accept other telling me my feelings are wrong or inappropriate. :mad:

By that logic you can justify any backwards belief. That one major flaw aside, I agree and it's generally how I live my life. There are worse things then being a racist, there are worse things then being a homophobe, there are worse things then being sexist. If someone is willing to tolerate me then I'll try my best to tolerate them and maybe we'll fine common ground in the middle. Some of the nicest people I've met in my life have been devout Muslims. Now I'm well aware of exactly what their view point is, and we'll never be friends, but we can certainly co-exist.

The point, which has probably been lost, is that I'm not impressed by someone who is accepting of homosexuality but has contempt for camp people. I think thats a character flaw and not something worth praise.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

A lot of the responses on here are extremely lacking in clarity.

That we should not associate homosexuality with the shrill, attention seeking, hyperactive, immature stereotype, is a good point. I don't believe, however, that it has been made coherently, and then there's this bull which has been posted about fear of feminine men.

How is it bull? A lot of guys have this idea in their heads about what exactly it means to be a man. Usually it's incredibly fuked up at the start but generally evens out in later life. Now camp effiminate males are so far outside the comfort zone of what a male should be, that little internal voices start shouting "WRONG". Hence the attitude. But it's not really very rational.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Boston, your posts are frequently condescending, and you are always looking for a fight. You're not stupid, you could be a great contributor, but you frequently go off on very angry tirades, often making assumptions and casting aspersions on other posters. I really don't understand why this is...

I grow tired of people banging a drum. Thinking if only they banged a little bit harder they could drown out the voices of reason.

iptba

Boston wrote: »

I've not stereotyped anyone. The only stereotyping I've ever experience has been people assuming I'm a scum bag because I my accent and where I grew up. Maybe thats why I don't like labels.

Btw, I'm not gay.

I'm confused.

What does this paragraph mean: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64689391&postcount=27 - I presume this is one of the reasons why people might have thought you were gay.

Boston wrote: »

I was in a pub recently enough and somehow (it sure as fuk wan't me who brought it up) the conversation went towards gays-ex-girlfriends and then onto camp gay guys. One of the lads remarked that he'd never met a non-camp gay guy at which point I leaned in, showed him a photo of me and my partner. I could see in an instance his entire perception of things had changed. I happen to be one of the most masculine guys you'll ever meet.

[..]

My mate fitted into his little box of a gay man being "basically a woman". I, on the other hand, am a bloke, no two ways about it.

Giselle

iptba wrote: »

I'm confused.

What does this paragraph mean:

Thats theres more than straight or gay.

And that some people hate labels.

Nebit

Boston wrote: »

What on earth makes you think you'd have more or less in common with a camp person then any other person you meet? You're reading too much into what type of person a guys is based purely on superficial factors.

orly. I've met a few gay guys who define themselves relative to what they are supposedly not. Being camp doesn't define what a persons hobbies are, what college course they do, where they are from, what they do. Can you honestly say that the minute you meet a somewhat camp guys you don't immediately start to tick off boxes in your head?

Depends on what the basis of the homophobia is. As I've said, I've known plenty who've been perfectly willing to accept and tolerate me, but not more effeminate gay guys. Lets be honest, it's not the campness, the shrillness or the loudness, it's the male femininity which is the issue. It might not be homophobic but it's definitely some form of hang up which people are right to call your friend on.

.

Don't assume you know me. I DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE since i have been judged far too much in this life. So no i do not start ticking off boxes!
I give everybody a chance and i was simply saying in general i have little in common with camper men (merely and observation). Now im not saying there aren't any exceptionsto this, there maybe a few in the future, and that is why i dont judge a book by its cover.
There are no superficial matters about it as i would have no problem talking or being around a camp man, it is just the fact that i find i have little in common with camper men (that i have met) and therefore would not choose to hang around with them. In the same way a lawyer wouldnt hang out with a dustbin man as they have different interests.

It is for this reason that i understand why heterosexual men may withframe from socialising with camp men. As i said before if a camp guy talked to said hetro man then he would more than likely be civil and polite, even find out that this person may have simmilar interests but ultimately it comes down to 'should i waste my time on trying to know someone i probably ont get on with'
AGAIN if a camp guy talked to said hetro man then he would more than likely talk back.

The majoriy of camp guys are very loud and lets face it, it can be annoying, it has NOTHING to do with their femininity, It is in the same way a crying baby can get annoying after a while if it is percistantly crying in a cinema, or if a group of people are talking in a library.

fonecrusher1

Giselle wrote: »

Thats theres more than straight or gay.

And that some people hate labels.

The question was aimed at boston not you.

Why don't you let him speak for himself?

Giselle

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

The question was aimed at boston not you.

Why don't you let him speak for himself?

Discussion threads generally invite opinions.

Thats mine.

pikachucheeks

I have no problem with anyone's sexuality or sexual interests.
Live and let live, I think.

Since I was a small child, my parents' best friends have been a gay couple. I was always brought up to believe that this was perfectly normal and natural.
It wasn't hidden from me - when they stayed in our house, they shared a double bed etc.

People are attracted to each other, people fall in love ... doesn't matter what gender people are, if there's a connection and an attraction.

Boston

Giselle wrote: »

Thats theres more than straight or gay.

And that some people hate labels.

Sexuality isn't a binary system. Sexuality is actually a spectrum with each individual at their own place along it. If you imagine a scale from 1 to 6 with one being exclusively heterosexual and 6 being exclusively homosexual, then I'd probably be a 4 at this point in time. Most people fall into the middle somewhere few are at the extremes. Thats not me saying it, it's backed up by in-depth research.

Additionally, sexuality isn't just about who you have sex with. A lot of factors influence your sexuality. I've met gay people who have sex with members of the opposite sex but consider themselves gay, since there's no deep emotional or spiritual connection. I've also met people who never experienced anything beyond the physical side of things.

Best way to think about it is that for a lot of people they simply have a strong (maybe very strong) preference for one gender over the other. How many of your guys genuinely get on better with your best mate then you do your girlfriends? It was true for me, at which point I realised I didn't care that much about gender when it came to finding the right person to be with.

fonecrusher1

Boston wrote: »

Sexuality isn't a binary system. Sexuality is actually a spectrum with each individual at their own place along it. If you imagine a scale from 1 to 6 with one being exclusively heterosexual and 6 being exclusively homosexual, then I'd probably be a 4 at this point in time. Most people fall into the middle somewhere few are at the extremes. Thats not me saying it, it's backed up by in-depth research.

Additionally, sexuality isn't just about who you have sex with. A lot of factors influence your sexuality. I've met gay people who have sex with members of the opposite sex but consider themselves gay, since there's no deep emotional or spiritual connection. I've also met people who never experienced anything beyond the physical side of things.

Best way to think about it is that for a lot of people they simply have a strong (maybe very strong) preference for one gender over the other. How many of your guys genuinely get on better with your best mate then you do your girlfriends? It was true for me, at which point I realised I didn't care that much about gender when it came to finding the right person to be with.

Translation = you're bisexual. Fair enough.

Herbal Deity

Boston wrote: »

How is it bull? A lot of guys have this idea in their heads about what exactly it means to be a man. Usually it's incredibly fuked up at the start but generally evens out in later life. Now camp effiminate males are so far outside the comfort zone of what a male should be, that little internal voices start shouting "WRONG". Hence the attitude. But it's not really very rational.

How do you know this? And are you not stereotyping with this paragraph?

Boston wrote: »

I grow tired of people banging a drum. Thinking if only they banged a little bit harder they could drown out the voices of reason.

So why engage in the same tactic as them?

Boston

Nebit wrote: »

The majoriy of camp guys are very loud and lets face it, it can be annoying, it has NOTHING to do with their femininity, It is in the same way a crying baby can get annoying after a while if it is percistantly crying in a cinema, or if a group of people are talking in a library.

I don't accept that. Again you're defining campness differently to me perhaps.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

How do you know this? And are you not stereotyping with this paragraph?

Stereotyping whom? Stereotyping the subset of people who are straight and hung up about camp gays? I've heard some honest opinions in the past about why they're hung up on it, it's not conjecture, but obviously isn't true of every case.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Translation = you're bisexual. Fair enough.

I'm glad I have your approval, it's basically what I live for.

CDfm

Just a mo - this started about attitudes to homosexuals especially if they were family members and friends.

For a bunch of tolerant people theres some lot of bitchin going on

Nevyn

Oh I am always intolerant when it comes to ignorance and bigotry.

Kirnsy

I reckon people have to accept that everyone has their own preferences: be it sexuality, religion, lifestyle or who they choose to surround themselves with.
There is a lot of finger pointing and needless questioning in the thread which started off so well.

iptba

I don't really know the literature that well on bisexuality (or indeed homosexuality but even less so on bisexuality) and the homosexual/heterosexual spectum but here is something I read before, for what it's worth.

I think a lot of men are 1s on a 6-point scale (heterosexual - homosexual scale) but if this is true this might be less true of women, and women might even think men are lying when they say this.


http://www.blueworld.co.za/blog/read.aspx?id=10985&user=feza

Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?

3. Women's sexual inclinations are more complicated than men's.
What turns women on? Not even women always seem to know. Northwestern University researcher Meredith Chivers and colleagues showed erotic films to gay and straight men and women. They asked them about their level of sexual arousal, and also measured their actual level of arousal through devices attached to their genitals.

For men, the results were predictable: Straight men said they were more turned on by depictions of male-female sex and female-female sex, and the measuring devices backed up their claims. Gay men said they were turned on by male-male sex, and again the devices backed them up. For women, the results were more surprising. Straight women, for example, saidthey were more turned on by male-female sex. But genitally they showed about the same reaction to male-female, male-male, and female-female sex.

"Men are very rigid and specific about who they become aroused by, who they want to have sex with, who they fall in love with," says J. Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University sex researcher and co-author with Chivers on the study.

By contrast, women may be more open to same-sex relationships thanks to their less-directed sex drives, Bailey says. "Women probably have the capacity to become sexually interested in and fall in love with their own sex more than men do," Bailey says. "They won't necessarily do it, but they have the capacity."

Bailey's contention is backed up by studies showing that homosexuality is a more fluid state among women than men. In another broad review of studies, Baumeister found many more lesbians reported recent sex with men, when compared to gay men's reports of sex with women. Women were also more likely than men to call themselves bisexual, and to report their sexual orientation as a matter of choice.

I like actual direct measurements of sexual arousal in research studies - indirect report could potentially be less accurate.