Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

Great news T! Us old fellas need to watch our legs. Careful not to overdo it, which reminds me - must do the same.

Thanks Stazza. We certainly do. I need to start paying attention to the detail now. I feel if I paid attention to all the details there would be potentially be more improvement there for me (over time) with that change alone.
Anyway, plan is to hold the mileage around 160km when back there again in a few weeks (touch wood!). Ill try and work to hybrid the Canova introductory period stuff as well as some of the Kellogg pre season speed suggestions.

ecoli wrote: »

Honestly the soft core ones might be cheaper short term but lose there shape very easy. Elveries have there own brand of the Grid for about 30e which is 1/2 price compared to the Grid and in terms of quality would be pretty much the same and a worth while investment
Either that or the DIY job of a slip of Wavin pipe if you can get your hands on it

PaulieC wrote: »

Physio needs in Irishtown do them, from about 18 quid iirc

Thanks. Elveries in Dun Laoghaire have their grid ones for 29.99, so Ill try it at lunch. Otherwise Ill try Irishtown.

dna_leri wrote: »

Good to hear the prognosis is positive.
Take care not to change that by racing - keep the eye on the real goal.

Good advice. Ive contacted the team captain and told him my chances were slim, but if hed cover I wouldn't risk it at all.

BTW I saw that Emmets running a marathon (Sligo mail list). Any idea which one? Always wondered how he'd get on if he moved up.

dna_leri

T runner wrote: »

BTW I saw that Emmets running a marathon (Sligo mail list). Any idea which one? Always wondered how he'd get on if he moved up.

Have not heard of a definite plan. He ran national indoors last week so I suspect its not in spring.

T runner

dna_leri wrote: »

Have not heard of a definite plan. He ran national indoors last week so I suspect its not in spring.

I think it might be Spring. His race in The Nats was described as "preparing for his debut marathon".

Either way, if he adds long hard runs to his repertoire he'll be setting PB's and running low 50's in warriors run. Might have to get the ebar traps out on Knoacknarea again for next years race......:pac:

T runner

Got the grid foam roller In Elveries. Gave it a slight go yesterday, its good, thanks for advice received.

The Physio said to rest the leg for 3 days after the physio session.
I just realized I hadn't applied the re-adjustment formula for physios not specializing in runners only.

Re-adjustment formula

Rest advised - Rest advised + token rest day (1)

That means I should have been back running yesterday.
Joking aside, I intend to do a little core work and stretching this lunch. My usual haunt is a 2k jog away, so that's what ill do. Leg is still a little sore from the physio work, but not in danger of injury.

The rest was a good psychological break. A setback fitness wise, but ill get back into it quickly. I needed to work on flexibility and the details so this is an inexpense reminder relatively.

Going to buy a big yoke of protein carbs, for post commute runs (some at work, some at home). This will help with nutrition. Sorry about this, but again, any suggestions on brands, shops etc very welcome.

I have cycled the last couple of days and really enjoying it. If my mileage is around the 160k I can afford to cycle a couple of commute legs which will help with recovery.

groovyg

T runner wrote: »

Going to buy a big yoke of protein carbs, for post commute runs (some at work, some at home). This will help with nutrition. Sorry about this, but again, any suggestions on brands, shops etc very welcome.

Its really a case of testing them to see what you like, I have used Optimum Nutrition vanilla and chocolate flavour recovery and they taste good, expensive tho. The Kinetica mango flavoured recovery tastes good but the one I mostly use is SIS Recovery Chocolate, great with low fat milk or water. If I were you maybe buy a few sachets before committing to the big 1.5kg/5kg drum they all seem to come in.

ecoli

Use the Optimum Nutrition products myself (the Whey Protein). Kinetica not the worst but to be honest the high protein content in the ON and the low sugar content in comparision to the Kinetica, the ON works for me

If you are looking for something with Carbs though the High-5 4:1 is not a bad one

T runner

groovyg wrote: »

Its really a case of testing them to see what you like, I have used Optimum Nutrition vanilla and chocolate flavour recovery and they taste good, expensive tho. The Kinetica mango flavoured recovery tastes good but the one I mostly use is SIS Recovery Chocolate, great with low fat milk or water. If I were you maybe buy a few sachets before committing to the big 1.5kg/5kg drum they all seem to come in.

ecoli wrote: »

Use the Optimum Nutrition products myself (the Whey Protein). Kinetica not the worst but to be honest the high protein content in the ON and the low sugar content in comparision to the Kinetica, the ON works for me

If you are looking for something with Carbs though the High-5 4:1 is not a bad one

Thanks Folks.
The situation is id be downing some after a run to work in the morning or home at evening. It would need the protein, but would need carbs too as it would be 1-2 hours until I get some food. My thinking also is that it would take the hunger off, and while not perfect nutrition it would help cut out the unhealthy stuff. Taste is not a huge issue (unless its absolutely rotten!..or banana, I like banana but not in sports drinks)

I have a few Great Outdoors vouchers so I might ake a gander in there.

T runner

Wednesday 19/2

Lunch 5k inc core

Being wanting to post something like the above for a while but Im not quite out of the woods yet. Leg felt OK for most of the run. Stopped after 2k for the core.
Coming back I felt some pain in that hollowed are between ankle knobbly bone and Achilles. This spread to the outside of my foot...then disappeared. Felt a little pain on the muscle that was worked on soleus on the final (uphill) part.

What I'm hoping is that its the equivalent of phantom pains experienced during a taper. Ive gone from high mileage to zero. After 9 days this might explain.....

Glad to be back out. But not sure if im outta the woods or still on the way in!
Longer run tomorrow at lunch: 8k I think.

Stazza

T runner wrote: »

Wednesday 19/2
Coming back I felt some pain in that hollowed are between ankle knobbly bone and Achilles. This spread to the outside of my foot...then disappeared. Felt a little pain on the muscle that was worked on soleus on the final (uphill) part.

Here's a few things to check out (I'm not giving injury advice etc, merely suggesting some generalities that may help with functional conditioning).

Try standing on your good foot, close your eyes, and pretend to brush your teeth. Easy(ish)? Good.

Now try on your troubled foot. Difficult(ish)? If you work on it you might find that soleus will not have to come in and compensate for the stabilizers, also your achilles shouldn't become overburdened once the stabilizers are working properly.

Feel the tendon of your big toe - the one that runs along the top of your foot. Are there any tender spots? if there are, a little gentle pressure will free up the tendon - you'll feel a therapeutic pulse. Now try standing on the troubled foot. Easier? Good.

The above has nothing to do with your injury - it's just a general proprioception exercise/maintenance routine that helps with the stabilizers etc. Might be an idea to stay away from the bounding etc until you have full functionality etc.

T runner

Thursday 20/2/2014

10k easy

OK. More pains but stabilisers not functioning correctly as indicated after the injury. I used to do several stabiliser exercises a week when hill running frequently. You can forget more than you learn sometimes.

12.5k home

Soleus started hurting into the last few k. Nothing serious, just need to do more stabiliser stuff, stretching and rolling. I cant risk running any faster than easy however. This is 2 weeks since the issue arose so not an insignificant setback now. Time from point of injury to return to previous stage of progress will be a month (at least).

Just have to be patient i guess.

T runner

Saturday 10k easy: Mainly grass
Sunday 10k easy: Mainly grass
Monday 10k easy: Mainly grass Vivo barefoot
Tuesday: AM Cycle to work 12.5 k hard.


Leg still not right unfortunately. Running on grass helps as the slight unevenness and softness takes spreads the workload a bit and engages the stabilizer muscles more.

Mondays run was best as I realized I should run as barefoot as possible to help get the full stability back. I tried to forget about the leg and just run as naturally as possible letting my dodgy foot/leg take its share of things and I think that's part of the way forward.
I noticed that I had a lot of tightness down the right side of my right calf (bad leg). Not so on left. I had a Eureka moment and remembered a physio realigning my hips before. That might explain things. My right leg seemed to be swinging more than my left while running on closer examination. Ill book another appointment and get that checked.

It does seem to be slowly improving. However, its way past time to start cross training as considerable fitness is lost and 2 kilos added to weight in 2 weeks.
Cycled in with effort today, swim planned for lunch and jog home.

Looking back on my training since my 2 months off and I've long since noticed a glaring error. With 2 months since any kind of running it meant that all types and paces of running were in neglect.

In hindsight heading into big base mileage with these elements still in neglect was not the optimum strategy. The correct strategy was probably picking a goal race e.g masters XC and using a diamond structure of training for it.
i.e Relatively small base phase with strides and AT. Large middle section covering Threshold, Aerobic capacity, some speed and a small specific phase. Mileage topping out at 130-140k.

That would mean that now I could build up a decent base with strength and speed elements (and with all other components topped up and in good shape) .

I might morph what im doing (nowt!) into a 5k schedule now (inc base) once i'm back in one piece.
Have ordered the Magness book, and Daniels 3rd addition for inspiration!

Peterx

good man T. I'll be on the couch to 5k comeback trail in a few weeks too. I might try to join in a few of those sessions, if suits of course.

dna_leri

T runner wrote: »

Have ordered the Magness book, and Daniels 3rd addition for inspiration!

While you are at it, get "Anatomy For Runners" by Jay Dicharry, Kindle version for £0.99 on amazon.co.uk

T runner

Thanks a million, will do! Nice one.

T runner

Peterx wrote: »

good man T. I'll be on the couch to 5k comeback trail in a few weeks too. I might try to join in a few of those sessions, if suits of course.

Great stuff Peter. It will suit all-right!

T runner

Tuesday PM: 12.5 k easy. Leg seems to be improving slightly with each run. Probably the fastest "easy" run i've done. The preceding runs have been effort and speed wise "recovery". Feels like a long way off anything faster, however. My lunchtime swim didn't materialize, haircut instead. Maybe Wednesday.

Wednesday: AM 12.5k easy. OK run. Leg still not right. Ive the Wicklow Mountains Half marathon on Sunday week. I'm doubtful for this, but just incase, I might crosstrain with some hilly cycles (on turbo) if time permits.

T runner

That's a screenshot shot of a training paces calculator whose paces Im planning to use for the 5k. The info/paces etc are based on a Canova post on Lets Run. I've added suggested sessions although mine will probably differ.

My goal for the 5k training is more or less to increase my aerobic power with a view towards the Frankfurt marathon and the National Half before. Looking at the table the most important training will therefore be the zones including and between between AT pace and Specific Speed Endurance pace.

That's not to say its 10k training, its not. 10k training and true HM training will come in the following phase.
Paces faster than Speed endurance will be catered for by Strides, and hill work. Hill sprints and limited shorter sprints and drills will be there too, as will strenght (although not represented in table).

All aspects of my preparation are relatively weak so ill have to work on each.

Once I get my legs screwed back on properly Ill be focusing on AT, general strength work with a weekly drill session.

Once I'm happy-ish with AT, ill maintain it in the long run.

Ill probably try and get the AP support paced stuff out to 14-15k over a few weeks before starting to funnel down and up towards the specific paces from both sides.

I might try and combine paces and intensities via fast finishes and triggers, hill Reps. Stazza has demonstrated this well. Ill need to find the right sequence of sessions for myself, but I'm starting to understand the importance of enhancing the bodies ability to create lactate and re-use it at beneficial paces for elevating LT and improving 5k race pace. THe endurcance session needs to be paired with the speed session. Most particularly the aerobic Power paces above (HM-10k) need to be paired with the specific speed endurance.

Ill try and cement a schedule as far as the National Half once im back at 100%.

I've attached the calculator if anyone wants to use it.

Krusty_Clown

Whatever about the marathon, hitting a 5k time like that would be a career highlight. The marathon could just be icing on the cake. Hope you get back to full speed soon.

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Whatever about the marathon, hitting a 5k time like that would be a career highlight. The marathon could just be icing on the cake. Hope you get back to full speed soon.

Thanks, getting there slowly. Well done in the XC by the way. I know you were a bit disappointed but unless you're preparing especially for those races (the mucky ones) they can turn into a slog fairly quick. It will stand to you greatly and your placing points to the fact that you're in great condition, while still building.

I was gutted to miss it. We lost another runner or two, and one of our fast lads had trouble in the muck which had knocked us into second. I would have needed to have finished 32nd or better (around yourself?). I don't think I would have managed it......but there would have been plenty of incentive....:pac:


I should have had 15:30 down. Macmillan puts a 2:30 marathon @ 15:24 for the half. Ill want to get just under 15:30. I haven't ran many. My PB is 15:54 from last year after some hill running training. I was strong and some of the training was transferrable, but with more specific training I might have been good for low 15:40's. Still a massive way to go though.
I have a gut feeling that 15:30 would probably be enough for me on that side of things.

My whole plan was to get into better aerobic condition than during my Rotterdam marathon and bring that fitness to 5k training. A full marathon phase then, would see me threaten my target hopefully.
There's still time for that to work while building cautiously, I just need to avoid injury.

Stazza

This is a good move T.

I remember reading Krusty’s log after DCM – at least I think it was Krusty’s log – and he said something like, ‘We do thousands of miles just to get a 30-40 sec improvement…’ And I thought, stop doing marathons, do some 5k work and improve your shorter distances and then come back to the marathon and you’ll smash your PB. Then, when I saw that he’d decided to do the 5k stuff I thought, good man. Same goes for you. I agree with your assessment that if you’re to break 2:30 you’ll need to run sub 15:30, or in and around there.

So, the three old fellas are going after the 5k. Hmm… should be interesting. Given that you’re both younger than me, wanna put down some coin?:) The odds are in Krusty’s favour: he’s running well, whereas we’re both coming back from injury.

T runner

Stazza wrote: »

This is a good move T.

I remember reading Krusty’s log after DCM – at least I think it was Krusty’s log – and he said something like, ‘We do thousands of miles just to get a 30-40 sec improvement…’ And I thought, stop doing marathons, do some 5k work and improve your shorter distances and then come back to the marathon and you’ll smash your PB. Then, when I saw that he’d decided to do the 5k stuff I thought, good man. Same goes for you. I agree with your assessment that if you’re to break 2:30 you’ll need to run sub 15:30, or in and around there.

So, the three old fellas are going after the 5k. Hmm… should be interesting. Given that you’re both younger than me, wanna put down some coin?:) The odds are in Krusty’s favour: he’s running well, whereas we’re both coming back from injury.

Krustys the favourite and is in a strong place after his base stuff. Youre injury is in the history
books now. Yep ill definately put coin on a faster 5k in 2014. Might even put a whole two euro! But seriously youre on....(2 euro)

Slogger Jogger

Ye should all just tow the line at the same race. Warriers run eh T?

T runner

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

Ye should all just tow the line at the same race. Warriers run eh T?

Maybe the last 5k of it.....although The intensity and strength required for the road section home after the mountain has beaten me more than I've beaten it, alas. The two lads are strong of mind and body, I couldn't risk getting scorched on my home turf. That's Peterx's job.

Krusty_Clown

My €2 is on T-runner.

T runner

Wednesday cont:

Lunch: Gym

A few circuits on the machines and some core work and stretching.
There's a new 24hr gym across the road from work (not the one I was in).
They're allowing our staff a free day tomorrow to test. Ill be there and I think on my next visit ill be able to get a months membership for €35. No fan of gyms, but if I subscribe, ill do the work, get stronger, avoid injury and save on physio visits.

There is also a very skilled coach who does circuits with an Orienteering club midweek. She is meticulous with technique, and this will be my way in to circuit training, maybe 2 weeks time, ill add that session. A 50 minute run home after the session means I can mess around with enhancing strength endurance on the way back. Once the circuits feel easier, ill step them up to all out. After a few weeks of that, I can run home steady, or with fartlek etc.
Ill try to adapt a second session on my own after my general gym training month is done.

PM Cycled home fast-ish until the commuting cycler hero i was trying to fry dropped me...then easy.

PM 2:10k easy: Out with my evo trail yokes which are good for foot/lower leg strengthening. A few ad-hoc surges in pace. 22.5k for the day. 4 bouts of exercise. Getting there.
Stretching before and after.

Thursday AM: Cycle to work...steadyish..some fast parts.

PM Ran home. Leg allowed me to break 4:30 pace (guess) for the first time and make the run slightly steadier than easy. Woohoo. That means im close to stopping the slide. Upped the pace to just below AT for a kilometre. Felt the calf slightly at that speed so eased off. No more today.

Ill run in and out tomorrow and do the gym. Hopefully theyre'll be more improvement. If so I might try a fartlek run on Saturday. Maybe 10 min AT segments. Will see. If im feeling confident in my leg after that, ill try a 20+ k easy run on Sunday probably around Bull Island. And Ill do my 15-16k AT (or part thereof) on Tuesday. That should be a normal-ish week, and the following week id be adding the drills again. If that happens, Stazza and Krusty are 1 euro poorer de facto.

ecoli

Have to say I used to be the same as you with regards the gym however over the last 6 months I have to say I have noticed the benefits with regards to injury prevention. Haven't had as much as a niggle in the last 6 months where usually I would get the occasional niggle when sessions are going well.

Have also had a few comment on my running form during sessions and even looking at video footage from races has become fairly apparent that I am alot smoother now (despite thinking that I had pretty decent form previously )

Definitely worth a look into

T runner

ecoli wrote: »

Have to say I used to be the same as you with regards the gym however over the last 6 months I have to say I have noticed the benefits with regards to injury prevention. Haven't had as much as a niggle in the last 6 months where usually I would get the occasional niggle when sessions are going well.

Have also had a few comment on my running form during sessions and even looking at video footage from races has become fairly apparent that I am alot smoother now (despite thinking that I had pretty decent form previously )

Definitely worth a look into

Thanks Ecoli, that's great to hear. The last time I did strength work consistently was 2006 and it made a huge difference. Injuries are my enemy, I had feared that I might be snagged trying to reach the high mileage this time as I wasn't doing anything preventative. Fingers cross I recover, but it might not be the worst thing in the world to happen (the injury) if it means I get strong and injury proof and have a sustained run of good balanced training until the Autumn marathon.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My €2 is on T-runner.

Krusty, on races you're in, you can't bet on anyone but yourself!

But seriously I think youre 5k training will have the most impact of all. I'm dying to see the speed of the LT work on the far side of it.

T runner

Friday AM: 12.5 easy

Felt the calf a little more on running in this morning probably due to more exertion in the run last night. Slight niggle in the knee too. So Ill can my optimism of yesterday evening. Easy running, stretching and some strength till I'm in the clear. My stability on that foot has improved enormously although not quite there. Maybe when that's on par, the little pains will finally recede.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

Friday AM: 12.5 easy

Felt the calf a little more on running in this morning probably due to more exertion in the run last night. Slight niggle in the knee too. So Ill can my optimism of yesterday evening. Easy running, stretching and some strength till I'm in the clear. My stability on that foot has improved enormously although not quite there. Maybe when that's on par, the little pains will finally recede.

Saturday:

10k easy. Had to stop a few times to stretch out my soleus as the pain was increasing. Pains in knees also. Not good.

Sunday: 13.5 k easy.

We got our kindle repaired (amazon replaced our out of warranty model for free) and finally skimmed through anatomy for runners (thanks DNA). Will read it properly in the next few days. From preliminary skimming I decided more once legged balance stuff was in order, and a static stretch to the affected area of 4 mins to actually lengthen the fibre there.
Also found an old ankle strap from an old hill running injury. Put it on loosely.
Anyway, I got a 13.5 k easy run in in relative comfort. Due to some combination of, or none of the reasons above.

I have to jog 5k at lunch for messages and Ill run the 12.5k home.
I was feeling sorry for myself on Saturday.
For me there is 2 levels of running. Being able to run at all, and training towards potential. Not being able to run at all would be a real killer for me. I should be grateful that I can run at all.
So I enjoyed Sundays run, and any impatience disappeared. It was great to be out in the weather doing what I love. Hopefully the leg will start on the improvement again. I have a feeling the more patience and enjoyment I have with my running the quicker it might heal.

Peterx

well done T.
Just being able to run and appreciating it can be very good for the head, and possibly the soul.

ps: assuming I get to the startline of a Warriors Run again I'd be very confident of you whipping me, I would certainly have to bet against myself!