Motorway driving in Ireland

L1011

sesna wrote: »

There is always a time lag of about 2 years on road safety statistics. That is the most up to date one I could find from the European Transport Safety Council. Id be interested to see your assertions backed up by a better study.

A 'better study' is impossible. There is no other country in Europe with such a widespread network of extremely low traffic D2M to compare to. And its only because our motorway / DC network is comparatively so low traffic that people can get away with such atrocious driving.

Any of the members on here that have done extensive driving elsewhere in Europe - even GB (NI isn't any better) - can tell you that the Irish in general can't drive on motorways properly. This is an assertion that will be backed up by every single person that has been there to see it.

testarossa40

stripysocks85 wrote: »

If there's nobody else in that lane WTF does it matter if I'm doing the speed limit? [Or over it].

Let me bring HydeRoad's excellent explanation to your attention as you seem to have missed it the first time round:

HydeRoad wrote: »

May I step in here and bring some commonsense into this debate?

Forget about the 'letter of the law' for a minute, and consider things from a purely practical viewpoint. One of the most hazardous situations on any road is bunching of traffic. It happens on single carriageways as well as motorways, but a motorway is supposed to alleviate bunching by allowing traffic break up naturally. The driver who hogs the centre lane reduces the capacity of a three lane carriageway by a third, and is a primary cause of traffic bunching, as correctly positioned traffic in the first lane cannot readily access the second lane for overtaking. The most ignorant thing you can do is to drive in the centre lane adjacent to a vehicle in the first lane, match his speed, and sit there, trapping him in his lane.

The driver who hogs the outside lane is worst of all though. Even at the legal limit, a bunch can form in the third lane, trapping traffic in the first AND second lanes. Now we have a deadly situation, and it doesn't matter a whit what the legal speed limit is, three lanes of traffic all pinned in place by one ignorant driver in the outside lane, unable to change lanes freely and safely, it is like trying to breath with a plastic bag held over your face. It is madness. There is no room for error, the error that might occur by one driver trapped in the centre lane who cannot access the next exit due to being caught in the bunch. The error that might occur due to a driver not concentrating, and wandering out of his lane. The error that might occur due to a sudden tyre blowout. The error that might occur simply due to the stress of being trapped in a three lane bunch, with cars in front, behind and beside you, everything far too close together.

Moving in to the left opens the road, like taking the plastic bag from your face and taking a deep breath. Suddenly there is room, there is a margin of error, there is somewhere to go in emergency. If there is a line of traffic in the first lane at 80 or 100kmh, then you stay in the centre lane at 120kmh. If you are in the centre lane, and there is a vehicle some way distant, and you are going to catch them in the next minute, then stay out. If you are in the centre lane, approaching an on-slip with a car accelerating to join, then you stay out. But when all of these hazards are passed, you MOVE IN. Why, if you are doing 120kmh? Because the road needs to breathe. You are increasing forward visibility for those behind, you are creating a margin of error, and most important, you are allowing any possibility of dangerous traffic bunching to break up and disperse before it happens.

There is no good reason to stay in the centre lane when the road ahead is clear. No reason at all. But there are good reasons to move in to the left as requested, in order to be prepared and positioned when traffic does arrive behind. Don't let that bunch form. Let the road breathe, and let the traffic break up, giving people a chance to switch lanes and merge safely, without having to brake and run up behind others, or leaving drivers trapped in lanes when they need to manoeuvre.

jd

sesna wrote: »

I suspect the difference between true speed and displayed speed is neglible for all intents and purposes. All measurements of speed are going to have a margin of error.

My experience is that when using a GPS, it consistently displays a speed less than that indicated on a speedometer. This was by as much as 10 km/hr.

sesna wrote: »

If the law tolerates a margin of error on your speedometer, then also
as far as the law is concerned, you are still driving at the speed limit when your analogue/digital speedometer displays 120kmph.

??
As far as the law is concerned, you are driving at or under the speed limit, depending on the accuracy of the speedometer.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

A 'better study' is impossible. There is no other country in Europe with such a widespread network of extremely low traffic D2M to compare to. And its only because our motorway / DC network is comparatively so low traffic that people can get away with such atrocious driving.

Any of the members on here that have done extensive driving elsewhere in Europe - even GB (NI isn't any better) - can tell you that the Irish in general can't drive on motorways properly. This is an assertion that will be backed up by every single person that has been there to see it.

Since we're abandoning official statistics and studies, and resorting to anecdotal evidence, I am basing my observation on the fact that I can travel at 120kmp/h (as my speedo shows) on all Irish motorway networks (excluding m50) over 98% of the time. If I do get temporarily slowed down as someone is overtaking at a slower speed than I am travelling, it really doesn't bother that much that my journey time has an extra 30 seconds added to it. Perhaps I've just been extremely lucky in missing all these atrocious drivers.

amacachi

sesna wrote: »

Since we're abandoning official statistics and studies, and resorting to anecdotal evidence, I am basing my observation on the fact that I can travel at 120kmp/h (as my speedo shows) on all Irish motorway networks (excluding m50) over 98% of the time. If I do get temporarily slowed down as someone is overtaking at a slower speed than I am travelling, it really doesn't bother that much that my journey time has an extra 30 seconds added to it. Perhaps I've just been extremely lucky in missing all these atrocious drivers.

Crap driving has little effect on empty roads, it's when there's heavy usage and there's 10 cars in the right-hand lane for each 1 in the left lane that it causes disruption.

sesna

jd wrote: »

My experience is that when using a GPS, it consistently displays a speed less than that indicated on a speedometer. This was by as much as 10 km/hr.





??
As far as the law is concerned, you are driving at or under the speed limit, depending on the accuracy of the speedometer.

If this issue is so pertinent to safe driving, perhaps you should lobby the department of Transport and Noel Dempsey to have digital atomic speedometers backed up by GPS installed in all vehicles. I would maintain the difference is neglible to be of any great importance.

jd

sesna wrote: »

If this issue is so pertinent to road traffic legislation, perhaps you should lobby the department of Transport and Noel Dempsey to have digital atomic speedometers backed up by GPS installed in all vehicles. I would maintain the difference is neglible to be of any great importance.

The only issue that is pertinent is that speedometers may legally overstate your speed, but not understate it. That being the case you make it your business to keep to the limit and keep to the left( unless overtaking).

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Since we're abandoning official statistics and studies, and resorting to anecdotal evidence, I am basing my observation on the fact that I can travel at 120kmp/h (as my speedo shows) on all Irish motorway networks (excluding m50) over 98% of the time. If I do get temporarily slowed down as someone is overtaking at a slower speed than I am travelling, it really doesn't bother that much that my journey time has an extra 30 seconds added to it. Perhaps I've just been extremely lucky in missing all these atrocious drivers.

It'd appear you are one of the atrocious drivers, thats why.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

It'd appear you are one of the atrocious drivers, thats why.

Perhaps you should move to Germany/France and drive around all day in your little motorway utopia

stripysocks85

Muahhaha I shall still drive in the right line if I want.

FFS, I don't wait until there's a car right up my ar$e before I move into the left lane, so I can't understand how driving in the right lane causes bunching up of traffic [with my excellent driving anyway].

Plenty of other driving no-no's to worry about, rather than if someone is using the right lane or not.

I can understand if they are holding up cars, but if not holding up any cars, then feck it, I'll drive where I like.

L1011

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Muahhaha I shall still drive in the right line if I want.

FFS, I don't wait until there's a car right up my ar$e before I move into the left lane, so I can't understand how driving in the right lane causes bunching up of traffic [with my excellent driving anyway].

Plenty of other driving no-no's to worry about, rather than if someone is using the right lane or not.

I can understand if they are holding up cars, but if not holding up any cars, then feck it, I'll drive where I like.

Being in the wrong lane is crap driving. Crap driving is habit-forming.

stripysocks85

Trust me sir, I am not a crap driver. I could list several incidents I've seen where people are crap drivers, probably people who post on here lecturing to me about being in the 'wrong' lane.

As I said, if there is nobody within a couple of hundred metres behind me, I don't see that it matters.

Hey, don't ever go on the M50. You'd freak out if you saw all the traffic bunchers on that! Stay at home with the fluffy slippers.

sesna

stripysocks85 wrote: »

As I said, if there is nobody within a couple of hundred metres behind me, I don't see that it matters.

Agreed, it doesn't matter as is seen by the minimal amount of penalty points given nationally, for what some posters on here seem to see as a major infringement of road traffic law. The non-enforcement/minimal enforcement of this, unless one is blatantly blocking cars, speaks volumes for how significant this little rule is.

L1011

Its funny how militant the lane-hoggers get when they learn they're breaking the law...

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Its funny how militant the lane-hoggers get when they learn they're breaking the law...

Not as funny as the lane changers faces when they get stuck in a slower lane, unable to merge back to the overtaking lane, because of their pedantic approach to the law.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Not as funny as the lane changers faces when they get stuck in a slower lane, unable to merge back to the overtaking lane, because of their pedantic approach to the law.

...due to other drivers not obeying the law. The law isn't pedantic in this area - and you are the one advocating breaking it.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

...due to other drivers not obeying the law. The law isn't pedantic in this area - and you are the one advocating breaking it.

Dont be getting militant now. The Gardaí will enforce the law if it is so pertinent.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Dont be getting militant now. The Gardaí will enforce the law if it is so pertinent.

This is Ireland. Of course they won't. Its not easy to enforce and doesn't carry a difficult to challenge FPN.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

This is Ireland. Of course they won't. Its not easy to enforce and doesn't carry a difficult to challenge FPN.

Whats hard to enforce about it? An unmarked car, travelling on the motorway, observes this supposed hazardous behaviour and pulls offending driver over. If its so widespread, as you infer it is, the Gardai could have a new cash cow for operation revenue.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Whats hard to enforce about it? An unmarked car, travelling on the motorway, observes this supposed hazardous behaviour and pulls offending driver over. If its so widespread, as you infer it is, the Gardai could have a new cash cow for operation revenue.

Driver is like you and says "I wasn't doing anything wrong!", refuses to pay FPN, case goes to court, Garda has to turn up and testify that you were, in fact, doing something wrong, judge hands down the normal fine. Repeat ad nauseum. For an 120 quid standard fine, thats not cost effective compared to parking a GATSO van somewhere.

Even for those that do pay the FPN, chasing someone down on a motorway is again not cost effective - or safe - for an 80 quid FPN.

I love the way you're still claiming its "supposed" hazardous behaviour. It IS hazardous behaviour, and every road safety organisation in the world agrees on that. Its only a few Irish drivers who assume they're safe because "ah, I've never had a crash" who disagree. You're managing to prove my assertion that you are one of the atrocious drivers.

And once again for those that insist all lanes are fair game for when not overtaking, we now have the NRA specifically referring to the left hand lane as the "travelling lane": http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0104/1224261600492.html

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Driver is like you and says "I wasn't doing anything wrong!", refuses to pay FPN, case goes to court, Garda has to turn up and testify that you were, in fact, doing something wrong, judge hands down the normal fine. Repeat ad nauseum. For an 120 quid standard fine, thats not cost effective compared to parking a GATSO van somewhere.

Even for those that do pay the FPN, chasing someone down on a motorway is again not cost effective - or safe - for an 80 quid FPN.

Ironic that the law which you hold so dearly about which lane to drive in is also by your own contention completely useless as can not be enforced. I hope our legislators take note and improve things , really.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Ironic that the law which you hold so dearly about which lane to drive in is also by your own contention completely useless as can not be enforced. I hope our legislators take note and improve things , really.

It can be enforced, but it'd require beating some sense in to Irish drivers first of all, considering its blatantly clear that most don't know its the law, and those that are told boast about how they're going to continue to wilfully disobey it.

When most people don't know its the law, picking someone out of a queue of morons in the right hand lane to pull would be difficult. And dangerous.

I assume your twisted idea of "improve things" would be to remove one of the basic rules of the road to allow free-for-all, then? Once again, proof of the atrocious driving knowledge of the average Irish driver.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

It can be enforced, but it'd require beating some sense in to Irish drivers first of all, considering its blatantly clear that most don't know its the law, and those that are told boast about how they're going to continue to wilfully disobey it.

When most people don't know its the law, picking someone out of a queue of morons in the right hand lane to pull would be difficult. And dangerous.

I assume your twisted idea of "improve things" would be to remove one of the basic rules of the road to allow free-for-all, then? Once again, proof of the atrocious driving knowledge of the average Irish driver.

Your assumption is completely wrong. I also note you continue in your personal insults.

Surely if its as hazardous as you contend, the benefit of educating the driver to such a lethal activity would far outweigh any risk.

Also regarding your cost-benefit analysis of FPN fines in court - from a broader perspective the economic cost of a fatality is over €2 million. Once again, if such a dangerous practice, the overall benefit of enforcing far outweighs any risk.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Your assumption is completely wrong. I also note you continue in your personal insults.

Surely if its as hazardous as you contend, the benefit of educating the driver to such a lethal activity would far outweigh any risk.

Also regarding your cost-benefit analysis of FPN fines in court - from a broader perspective the economic cost of a fatality is over €2 million. Once again, if such a dangerous practice, the overall benefit of enforcing far outweights any risk.

I continue in "personal insults" because at this stage its blatantly clear you're just trying to defend a personal driving bad habit that you can't be bothered to fix.

The Road Safety Authority here spends its money on its two obsessions, speeding and drink. No other road risk exists in their eyes - although their extremely belated instructional video ad campaign *does* cover overtaking properly, amazingly.

You're also now obsessing with the danger of the practice. Not the fact that it strips road capacity, not the fact that it shows no consideration for other drivers, not the fact that it shows a general lack of knowledge of the rules of the road...

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I continue in "personal insults" because at this stage its blatantly clear you're just trying to defend a personal driving bad habit that you can't be bothered to fix.

The Road Safety Authority here spends its money on its two obsessions, speeding and drink. No other road risk exists in their eyes - although their extremely belated instructional video ad campaign *does* cover overtaking properly, amazingly.

Once again, a wrong assumption. I always maneuver back to travelling lane when appropriate.

Those idiots at the Road Safety Authority - 2009 the lowest number of road fatalities since records began despite there being an eight-fold increase in the number of registered vehicles - they obviously havent got a clue.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Once again, a wrong assumption. I always maneuver back to travelling lane when appropriate.

By your multitude of postings over speedometer accuracy, its quite clear your idea of "when appropriate" and what actually is appropriate are completely different. Being at 120km/h in the outer lane when the inner one is clear is not appropriate in any circumstances. Being at what you think is 120km/h when it likely isn't is similarly not appropriate - no more so because there are no shades of grey here.

sesna wrote: »

Those idiots at the Road Safety Authority - 2009 the lowest number of road fatalities since records began despite there being an eight-fold increase in the number of registered vehicles - they obviously havent got a clue.

*Falling traffic
*Reduced average age of the vehicles in use here
*Compulsary vehicle safety testing
*Significant reduction in provisionally licenced drivers (even if the Irish practical test is far too easy)
*Increased average quality of the national route network

Those are the primary factors in the reduction in road deaths, not Gay Byrne's obsession with speeding. The RSA may know what they're doing but they're doing it in two specific areas and basically no more.

You'll note that serious injuries are far up - this is down to safer vehicles, not a reduction in accidents.

HydeRoad

Sesna and stripeywhatsit, would you not agree that in the ideal scenario, everyone in the choir would sing from the same hymnsheet? In other words, if everyone obeyed the same laws, then everyone would understand each other, everyone would be generally able to pre-empt each other, and the system in general would flow smoothly and effortlessly.

You seem to be pushing an agenda of doing things differently, simply because you can. It is everyone following their own perceived rules, at odds with everyone else, that causes all the hazards and congestion.

There is no benefit to sitting out in the centre or right lane on a clear road. All it does is enforce in another less educated driver's mind that they too are correct to stay out in the centre lane. The end result being an N7 with a long line of traffic in the centre lane and an empty left lane, rendering the N7 as a two lane carriageway.

In an ideal world, there would be no rule of law, because everyone would have the cop on and savvy to do the correct thing, and common courtesy would be all that was needed. It is precisely because of people who insist on having it 'their' way, that we end up living in a nanny state telling us all what to do.

uberdruid

Eru wrote: »

The bastards! How dare they take a break from driving for 8 hours straight, surely falling asleep at the wheel is the far better option and nwhat difference did this make to you?

What a display of complete and utter ignorance! You know that hard shoulders are thought for emergencies only?
In continental Europe hundreds of accidents occur every year with out of control vehicles slamming into cars stranded on the hard shoulder.

Zoney

Some of the most dangerous drivers are not the lane hoggers in the outside lane at 120 km/h (or even 130 km/h) but rather those who in encountering them drive up to a few feet behind the bumper of the car in front, even in wet/rainy conditions.

These people show a gross ignorance of not only good driving, but the basic laws of physics, and for people that want the "right" to break the speed limit, show themselves as particularly unworthy candidates for driving at higher speed, and indeed show that they should not be on the road at all, and certainly not on motorways.

I am not condoning lane hogging, and those who do, are not "in the right" even if they can say no-one should be going faster than them (those who say they should not be policing the speed limit are right). Nevertheless they are not remotely in the same league as those who almost try to "push" them out of it. That is the *really* ignorant behaviour as it could lead to a horrific motorway accident. As I said it is particularly shocking to see this behaviour even in the rain or poor visibility, and on pretty much every single motorway journey (yes it also shows poor lane discipline is widespread to encounter it on every single trip, but the tailgaters are a far greater menace and cannot justify it by the behaviour of the other driver).

stripysocks85

Zoney wrote: »

Some of the most dangerous drivers are not the lane hoggers in the outside lane at 120 km/h (or even 130 km/h) but rather those who in encountering them drive up to a few feet behind the bumper of the car in front, even in wet/rainy conditions.

These people show a gross ignorance of not only good driving, but the basic laws of physics, and for people that want the "right" to break the speed limit, show themselves as particularly unworthy candidates for driving at higher speed, and indeed show that they should not be on the road at all, and certainly not on motorways.

I am not condoning lane hogging, and those who do, are not "in the right" even if they can say no-one should be going faster than them (those who say they should not be policing the speed limit are right). Nevertheless they are not remotely in the same league as those who almost try to "push" them out of it. That is the *really* ignorant behaviour as it could lead to a horrific motorway accident. As I said it is particularly shocking to see this behaviour even in the rain or poor visibility, and on pretty much every single motorway journey (yes it also shows poor lane discipline is widespread to encounter it on every single trip, but the tailgaters are a far greater menace and cannot justify it by the behaviour of the other driver).

I agree.
I am beginning to understand the point about 'lane hogging', although am still adament I don't do it, just because I may drive in the right lane sometimes. To be fair, I mostly drive in the left lane if the cars are going a decent speed, but if there are many cars in left lane travelling slower than 120KPH, I would admittedly stay in right lane to pass these cars out, rather than veering in and out.

The cars that drive up behind me sometimes in the right lane are practically road bullying. One car even flashed its lights behind me, stuck up the tail end of my car, even though I couldn't go any faster due to the car in front of me. Whilst I understand this is an indication of the problem which has been discussed here, this was not caused by me. If I was going slower than the car behind me, even if I was already doing the speed limit, I would pull in and let them pass me.

It is indeed more dangerous IMO for cars to keep a very meek and short distance to the car in front, in hazardous conditions and of poor visibility [even motorway aside, I see plenty of 'dangerous' overtaking and tail gaiting of cars on national/secondary roads]. This is something which I think should be targeted [although I don't know how!] moreso than the lane hoggers.

Ignorant drivers will always be ignorant drivers.