Motorway driving in Ireland

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Being inaccurate to 20 feet does not mean it is consistently 20 feet out. It may be perfectly accurate to the true position at one point and a second later be 20 feet out or a range of somewhere in between 0-20 feet.

This would give you a garbage reading rather than a minorly inaccurate one. I'd also suggest you check how GPS works, because most causes of inaccuracy are going to cause consistant inaccuracies.

Just face it - GPS receivers are an extremely accurate guage of speed; analogue car speedometers are not.

Additionally, even counting for any temporary inaccuracies of the kind you're insistent on - I've driven about 60,000km since March with GPS receivers (including one with EGNOS which cuts the maximum possible inaccuracy to about 5 feet) so I know for a fact what the difference between real and indicated speed is on my vehicles.

Owenw

Either there's some serious trolling going on here or *some* people have never even glanced at the Rules of the Road!

Motorway Driving

Joining a motorway

My current favourite are people who not only c r a w l down the acceleration lane at a blazing 50-60 km/h but actually start tapping the f**king brake pedal if, heaven forfend, they spot you catching up behind them!
"No, Einstein, I was not giving you the finger, I was pointing out the f**king metre-wide 120 km/h roadsigns that floated, unnoticed, past your f**king windscreen!!"

*Grabs coat, heads for Ranting & Raving*

L1011

Please learn how GPS works before continuing to pontificate on it. GPS location can be updated about 10 times a second on modern receiving hardware.

A 20 foot inaccuracy in any random direction as you seem to insist the system is plagued with would cause complete garbage readings - in one tenth of a second you will have travelled about 5 foot at 120km/h.

Please consider that if errors of the kind you're insisting happen existed, it would be unsafe for aeroplanes (which have always used the civilian signal) to use GPS navigation. Ditto shipping - which has also always used the civilian signal. You also claimed that military hardware - which uses the civilian signal since SA ended - is accurate to 1 foot. Explain how this is so off identical signals, please?

It isn't. Civilian hardware is identically accurate to military hardware in this case. In areas where the military can use D-GPS, so can civilians (EGNOS, WAAS, etc).

Capt'n Midnight

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Its 80 quid fine for being 5 kmh over the limit. Its the same 80 quid for being 20 or 40 or 60 kmh over. So no benefit in staying a shade over the limit.
So if I dont mind the 80 quid and am in a rush, I'm as well go as fast as possible as its the same punishment as slighly breaking the rules!!

Until the points system was implimented the £50 fine for speeding was seen by many as a toll. If you were a busy rep you could very soon save that kind of money if you valued your time. Look the people who forked out a couple of grand for a taxi plate to drive in the bus lanes.

Yes we should move to a Canadian or Finish type fines where the fine doubles ever 10Km you are over / where the fine is based on your income.

superhooper

Cool. The cops have spoken. Can't wait to get on the road tomorrow and see what happens as I cruise along at 119 kmph on the far right lane.

Eru wrote: »

Ah bless another anti-Garda rant thread that is full of incorrect statements.

So let me begin:

No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane. All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???

Although maybe I need to take advice from the actual law?


"9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right."

WTF

Gerty

A great example of a major Part of the problem with motor way driving is shown in this thread.

At the end of the summer i was listening to the radio, and it was actually the same week i started driving. They were interviewing people on the radio giving them a situation on a roundabout and how they would react to it. And they all said different things. That terrified me. This thread reminds me a lot of those interviews.

Roryhy

I have to agree with Gerty here, im only a few years on the road myself and it has always struck me how vague the rules of the road are in relation to some situations on the road. Whats the situation in other jurastictions, are they any better at this or is there a bit more cop-on and manners on the road?

HydeRoad

May I step in here and bring some commonsense into this debate?

Forget about the 'letter of the law' for a minute, and consider things from a purely practical viewpoint. One of the most hazardous situations on any road is bunching of traffic. It happens on single carriageways as well as motorways, but a motorway is supposed to alleviate bunching by allowing traffic break up naturally. The driver who hogs the centre lane reduces the capacity of a three lane carriageway by a third, and is a primary cause of traffic bunching, as correctly positioned traffic in the first lane cannot readily access the second lane for overtaking. The most ignorant thing you can do is to drive in the centre lane adjacent to a vehicle in the first lane, match his speed, and sit there, trapping him in his lane.

The driver who hogs the outside lane is worst of all though. Even at the legal limit, a bunch can form in the third lane, trapping traffic in the first AND second lanes. Now we have a deadly situation, and it doesn't matter a whit what the legal speed limit is, three lanes of traffic all pinned in place by one ignorant driver in the outside lane, unable to change lanes freely and safely, it is like trying to breath with a plastic bag held over your face. It is madness. There is no room for error, the error that might occur by one driver trapped in the centre lane who cannot access the next exit due to being caught in the bunch. The error that might occur due to a driver not concentrating, and wandering out of his lane. The error that might occur due to a sudden tyre blowout. The error that might occur simply due to the stress of being trapped in a three lane bunch, with cars in front, behind and beside you, everything far too close together.

Moving in to the left opens the road, like taking the plastic bag from your face and taking a deep breath. Suddenly there is room, there is a margin of error, there is somewhere to go in emergency. If there is a line of traffic in the first lane at 80 or 100kmh, then you stay in the centre lane at 120kmh. If you are in the centre lane, and there is a vehicle some way distant, and you are going to catch them in the next minute, then stay out. If you are in the centre lane, approaching an on-slip with a car accelerating to join, then you stay out. But when all of these hazards are passed, you MOVE IN. Why, if you are doing 120kmh? Because the road needs to breathe. You are increasing forward visibility for those behind, you are creating a margin of error, and most important, you are allowing any possibility of dangerous traffic bunching to break up and disperse before it happens.

There is no good reason to stay in the centre lane when the road ahead is clear. No reason at all. But there are good reasons to move in to the left as requested, in order to be prepared and positioned when traffic does arrive behind. Don't let that bunch form. Let the road breathe, and let the traffic break up, giving people a chance to switch lanes and merge safely, without having to brake and run up behind others, or leaving drivers trapped in lanes when they need to manoeuvre.

wellbutty

Eru wrote: »

Ah bless another anti-Garda rant thread that is full of incorrect statements.

So let me begin:


No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane. All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???



Can you clarify this please? THe police were wandering around stationary vehicles and chekcing the roofs for snow? Is this correct and do you honestly believe this saves mkore lives than stopping speeding during snow storms?


I will not get into this other than to request evidence of this across the board allegation.



Completely wrong in law. Dont simple quote a passage from the rules of the road and state them as fact or law. All lanes on the road are equal.

And may I ask, if a car is doing 120kms on the motorway why or how would they be blocking you? They are at the limit for goodness sakes!


The bastards! How dare they take a break from driving for 8 hours straight, surely falling asleep at the wheel is the far better option and nwhat difference did this make to you?


How many offences do you reckong you DIDNT see on your trip? Perhaps the Gardai were busy delaing with the thousands of offences that escape your all seeing eye.




Fair enough you shouldnt do this does this really effect you and why werent you concentrating on the actual road in front of you?


What law was being broken by this broken down car and what powers do the Gardai have to remove this vehicle? Act and section please. Also please try to remember that frost doesnt take 24 hours to form, It takes only a fraction of that.


As above but with the added option that its wedged in, needs to be cut out or possible needs to be examined as part of a fatal crash investigation. Of course I also need to ask, how did you know it was there so long?


And this is a bad thing? The only example of an actual criminal act was caught. SDounds good to me but then I dont speed.



I dont really see your point. 3 cars pulled over on the hard shoulder for a minute for drivers to stretch their legs, etc. 1 car broken down and 1 car obviously crashed. Why do you think this is an example of terrible driving?

I can only assume this is a wind-up...any half-brained, half-qualified driver would see the hazards here. For your information Eru, I was looking at the road, some of these people were stepping out of their cars onto the white line dividing the hard shoulder from the road itself. Since other people here have quoted the acts of law and the duties of the gardai, you've gone very quiet. Back to Templemore for you.

Capt'n Midnight

HydeRoad wrote: »

The driver who hogs the centre lane reduces the capacity of a three lane carriageway by a third, and is a primary cause of traffic bunching, as correctly positioned traffic in the first lane cannot readily access the second lane for overtaking. The most ignorant thing you can do is to drive in the centre lane adjacent to a vehicle in the first lane, match his speed, and sit there, trapping him in his lane.

Since it is illegal to undertake they are Blocking 2/3's of the lanes.

If they were in the inside lane , then people doing 5 kmph faster than them could overtake safely in the middle lane and those going 20kmph faster could pull in to the third lane once they see someone is in or is indicating to go into the middle lane.

Instead traffic can only pass them at the speed of the slowest overtaker which is likely to be someone travelling only a few kmph faster them them. So they are reducing the capacity of th road by far more than 1/3 :mad:


The guys really taking the píss are the taxi's toddling along in the middle lane on the Lucan bypass at about 75 ignoring the bus lane as well. :mad::mad:

Also on the Chapelizod Bypass I often see Buses travelling below 80Kmph holding up traffic by not using the bus lane. Must they use it if they aren't keeping up with traffic ??

sesna

All these ideals of which lane to drive in break down on heavily congested motorways at peak-times. Bunching up of traffic occurs because of huge volume of traffic. Driving on the m50 at 8.30am in lane 1 is simply pointless, when driving at the speed limit, due to the close proximity of each junction (between n3 and n81) and continuous stream of slow merging traffic. Around 2 per cent of fatal collisions in Ireland occur on motoways. Motorways are perfectly safe to drive on despite the claims here of widespead lethal and hazardous driving.

wellbutty

sesna wrote: »

All these ideals of which lane to drive in break down on heavily congested motorways at peak-times. Bunching up of traffic occurs because of huge volume of traffic. Driving on the m50 at 8.30am in lane 1 is simply pointless, when driving at the speed limit, due to the close proximity of each junction (between n3 and n81) and continuous stream of slow merging traffic. Around 2 per cent of fatal collisions in Ireland occur on motoways. Motorways are perfectly safe to drive on despite the claims here of widespead lethal and hazardous driving.

I think everyone here will agree that they're safe to drive on. Is that 2% an Irish statistic? If so then it's because most of our worst drivers haven't yet had the chance to drive on a motorway but they will by the end of 2010 as the new roads are opened. If the 2% is for other countries then it's largely due to the fact that they have driver motorway education, motorway monitoring, motorway laws, motorway law enforcement and motorway facilities. We still have a bit to go, why not start basic education on TV NOW?!!!

I've driven a lot in the UK, France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland so I have witnessed the standard of other European countries, same as many of the posters here.

stripysocks85

If you're going 120KPH, and the cars in the left lane are doing less than this, then what is the point of me going into the right lane, and back into the left lane again? If I want to stay in the right lane, I don't see what the harm is. Of course if I noticed a car coming behind me, I would move into the left lane.

TBH, I just look at the motorway as multiple lanes of driving, didn't realise per sé there were rules attached - i.e. only use the right most lane for overtaking.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

All these ideals of which lane to drive in break down on heavily congested motorways at peak-times. Bunching up of traffic occurs because of huge volume of traffic. Driving on the m50 at 8.30am in lane 1 is simply pointless, when driving at the speed limit, due to the close proximity of each junction (between n3 and n81) and continuous stream of slow merging traffic. Around 2 per cent of fatal collisions in Ireland occur on motoways. Motorways are perfectly safe to drive on despite the claims here of widespead lethal and hazardous driving.

They're not ideals, they're the laws. And heavily congested motorways at peak times come under "slow queuing traffic" in the laws.

L1011

stripysocks85 wrote: »

If you're going 120KPH, and the cars in the left lane are doing less than this, then what is the point of me going into the right lane, and back into the left lane again? If I want to stay in the right lane, I don't see what the harm is. Of course if I noticed a car coming behind me, I would move into the left lane.

TBH, I just look at the motorway as multiple lanes of driving, didn't realise per sé there were rules attached - i.e. only use the right most lane for overtaking.

The point is that it is a: good driving practice and b: the law. Start doing it.

When you are actually overtaking other vehicles, thats fine. Its people who stay in the right lane when the next car is a hundreds of metres away with the "I'll be overtaking them soon..." attitude that are the problem.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

They're not ideals, they're the laws. And heavily congested motorways at peak times come under "slow queuing traffic" in the laws.

Since you're such a stickler for exact rules and laws, could you tell me at what speed and volume of traffic does traffic change from normal to "slow queuing". Also what gap between cars in lane 2 justifies moving in versus continuing the overtake manouver, and at how does speed impact on this.

stripysocks85

Why are they a problem in right lane if they're not blocking anyone else?

As someone stated already, if it's a busy motorway during rush hour or whatever, surely it's better to have the traffic evened out, rather than all trying to get into the left lane?

Stark

Quite often when I see a motorway busy, the right-lane is congested and the left lane is practically empty save for someone doing 60km/hr. No-one will pull in to the left lane even if they're doing less than the speed limit as they'll get stuck and won't be able to get back out into the right lane again. Result is the most anyone moves is about 80km/hr even if there's kilometres of empty road in front of the person hogging the overtaking lane.

stripysocks85

Well I never hog If I'm not doing the 120KPH in the right lane, I'm in the left.

L1011

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Well I never hog If I'm not doing the 120KPH in the right lane, I'm in the left.

...I'd expect you're actually hogging the right lane an awful lot of the time.

jd

sesna wrote: »

Link for this assertion please ?

I posted on another thread
EU directive

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0007:EN:HTML


From the eu regulation..
2.3.7. the speed displayed must never be lower than the actual speed. Between speed V1, read on the speedometer and actual speed V2: there must be the following relationship with the test values specified in item 2.3.5 and between those values:
0 <= (V1 - V2) <= 0,1 · V2 + 4 km/h.

If you are travelling at 100km/hr the speedometer MUST read between 100 km/hr and 114 km/hr
If you are travelling at 120 km/hr the speedometer MUST read between 120 km/hr and 136 km/hr

You may think you are travelling at 120 km/hr but it might only be about 105 km/hr

sesna

jd wrote: »

I
You may think you are travelling at 120 km/hr but it might only be about 105 km/hr

I suspect the difference between true speed and displayed speed is neglible for all intents and purposes. All measurements of speed are going to have a margin of error. If the law tolerates a margin of error on your speedometer, then also
as far as the law is concerned, you are still driving at the speed limit when your analogue/digital speedometer displays 120kmph.

This thread which seems to be so insistent on just one motorway rule of keeping left is, no doubt, having its agenda pushed by those who break the speed limit excessively in lane 3. Of course this disregard for the speed limit is not of concern. It is such drivers who tailgate in attempt to bully drivers into another lane and their resulting impetutousness that are the biggest danger.

I have driven extensively on motorways all over Ireland and the vast majority of drivers are completely proficient in driving on motorways. Given the low collision rate and inherent safety of motorways, it is little wonder that Gardai do not focus their policing efforts there.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

I have driven extensively on motorways all over Ireland and the vast majority of drivers are completely proficient in driving on motorways. Given the low collision rate and inherent safety of motorways, it is little wonder that Gardai do not focus their policing efforts there.

I've driven extensively on motorways all over Western Europe, and the vast majority of Irish drivers haven't got the slightlest clue about motorway driving.

Most of the people posting on this thread, including the supposed Garda, would likely end up dead on an Autobahn very, very rapidly.

Most of the deaths on motorways in Ireland are caused by people being crashed in to while stopped on the hard shoulder or changing lanes improperly (including eventually deciding to move left when the person you've been blocking for 5km decides to undertake). These are signs of incompetence at motorway driving.

Stark

sesna wrote: »

I suspect the difference between true speed and displayed speed is neglible for all intents and purposes. All measurements of speed are going to have a margin of error. If the law tolerates a margin of error on your speedometer, then also
as far as the law is concerned, you are still driving at the speed limit when your analogue/digital speedometer displays 120kmph.

The law also says to keep left. It says nothing but "sticking to the speed limit in the overtaking lane".

sesna wrote:

This thread which seems to be so insistent on just one motorway rule of keeping left is, no doubt, having its agenda pushed by those who break the speed limit excessively in lane 3. Of course this disregard for the speed limit is not of concern. It is such drivers who tailgate in attempt to bully drivers into another lane and their resulting impetutousness that are the biggest danger.

I always keep to the speed limit. I'm just sick of putting up with congested motorways with nearly empty left-hand lanes.

sesna

Stark wrote: »

The law also says to keep left. It says nothing but "sticking to the speed limit in the overtaking lane".

Except of course when overtaking, whether that be just one car or a long continous stream of traffic, as is often the case on heavily congested motorways

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I've driven extensively on motorways all over Western Europe, and the vast majority of Irish drivers haven't got the slightlest clue about motorway driving.

Most of the people posting on this thread, including the supposed Garda, would likely end up dead on an Autobahn very, very rapidly.

Most of the deaths on motorways in Ireland are caused by people being crashed in to while stopped on the hard shoulder or changing lanes improperly (including eventually deciding to move left when the person you've been blocking for 5km decides to undertake). These are signs of incompetence at motorway driving.

From Irish times - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/0220/1203371234780.html
"Irish motorway death rates lower than European average

Ireland, which has a comparitively small motorway network, was seventh on the list, with 2.39 deaths per billion kilometres travelled.

However, the study carried out by the European Transport Safety Council (ETSC) found that motorways in the Republic were not as safe as those in Britain, Switzerland, Denmark or the Netherlands."

Lower deaths per billion kilometers travelled compared to European average, yet our motorways are not as safe as our European counterparts. How does this make us worse drivers?

stripysocks85

MYOB wrote: »

...I'd expect you're actually hogging the right lane an awful lot of the time.

If there's nobody else in that lane WTF does it matter if I'm doing the speed limit? [Or over it].

L1011

sesna wrote: »

From Irish times - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/0220/1203371234780.html
"Irish motorway death rates lower than European average

Ireland, which has a comparitively small motorway network, was seventh on the list, with 2.39 deaths per billion kilometres travelled.

However, the study carried out by the European Transport Safety Council (ETSC) found that motorways in the Republic were not as safe as those in Britain, Switzerland, Denmark or the Netherlands."

Lower deaths per billion kilometers travelled compared to European average, yet our motorways are not as safe as our European counterparts. How does this make us worse drivers?

That figure comes from 2006 when we had a small motorway network clustered on Kildare and Dublin, where people have been doing motorway driving for ~25 years and dual carriageways have been widespread for longer. Now we have motorways in places where people are not yet used to them.

We also have lower traffic roads, nothing beyond three running lanes in width, etc. Many of our motorways are so empty its laughable they got built at all. Most of Europes motorways have traffic figures higher than ours can even handle. Our motorway speed limits are lower than many European countries (130 is a relatively common limit across Europe). Its not comparing like with like.

If the average Irish driver attempted to drive on the continent, they'd be mince meat.

stripysocks85 wrote: »

If there's nobody else in that lane WTF does it matter if I'm doing the speed limit? [Or over it].

Lane hogging is lane hogging. There may be nobody in it then, but if you're pointlessly using the lane its reducing the capacity of the road for any vehicles which come up behind you. And it turns from "theres nobody else here, I'm OK" to "I'm doing the speed limit as indicated by my speedo, I'm OK, lets ignore the queue of cars behind me" very, very quickly.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

That figure comes from 2006 when we had a small motorway network clustered on Kildare and Dublin, where people have been doing motorway driving for ~25 years and dual carriageways have been widespread for longer. Now we have motorways in places where people are not yet used to them.

We also have lower traffic roads, nothing beyond three running lanes in width, etc. Many of our motorways are so empty its laughable they got built at all. Most of Europes motorways have traffic figures higher than ours can even handle. Our motorway speed limits are lower than many European countries (130 is a relatively common limit across Europe). Its not comparing like with like.

If the average Irish driver attempted to drive on the continent, they'd be mince meat.

There is always a time lag of about 2 years on road safety statistics. That is the most up to date one I could find from the European Transport Safety Council. Id be interested to see your assertions backed up by a better study.

jd

I recently drove in Italy on the autostrada, and there is no way that you'd last very long if you engaged in the lackadaisical lane hogging mentioned above.