Motorway driving in Ireland

corktina

sesna wrote: »

On the few occasions I have cycled up the M50, from the N4 juntion to Ballymount. I have had suffered inordinate abuse at the hands of impetuous drivers, for no apparent reason. It is little wonder Irish drivers are considered so poor compared to their European counterparts.

a wind up is my guess....:rolleyes:

Chris_533976

I was thinking that too.

corktina

anyway..motorway driving...

heres the bottom line...either you take a pride in your driving and do it properly or else you just do whatever you want and stuff everyone else.

..i try my best to do the first option.

SC024

Without offending you, people like yourself are arguably the biggest problem on irish dual carriageways & motorwaysPrecisely the problem on the Naas Road,

One of the most basic rules of driving on irish roads is :

KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Lane 1 -Left lane should have HGV's ,Rigid trucks or slow moving vehicles but more than the 50kmph

Lane 2 -Middle lane

Lane 3- This is the overtaking lane and vehicle should then move back to lane 2 when it is safe to do so. Lane 3 should be free most of the time.
Yes i have seen and experienced vehicles staying in Lane 3 and doing 120kmph. These drivers are idiots and must be on some sort of ego trip.

sesna

Keeping left unless overtaking is simple in theory, but in heavy volumes of traffic, its easy to have to drive the full length of the m50 as you are constantly overtaking.

If one is to move into lane 2 when a gap of a few hundred meters appears, it often means you have sacrificed your position in lane 3, as a long line of fast moving cars occupies that space, preventing you from re-entering it until they have all passed.

Also if you are driving at 120kmp/h (or whatever the motorway speed-limit is) in lane 3, why would anyone want to overtake you? Why obey one law in order to facilitate someone else breaking the law on the speed limit?

corktina

see my last post, take PRIDE in doing it RIGHT...and hope others will follow your example.

sesna

corktina wrote: »

see my last post, take PRIDE in doing it RIGHT...and hope others will follow your example.

Im more of a pragmatist than an idealist

Bards

sesna wrote: »

Also if you are driving at 120kmp/h (or whatever the motorway speed-limit is) in lane 3, why would anyone want to overtake you? Why obey one law in order to facilitate someone else breaking the law on the speed limit?

Unless you are a member of the Gardai then you have no right to enforce the Speed Limit by blocking Lane 3, and in fact can be dangerous

BarryM

"On the peripherique in Paris, which makes the M50 look like a piece of piss, merging traffic has right of way over traffic already on the motorway. So you HAVE to move over or they'll just crash right into you and you'll be held liable".

Despite the remarks above about yield signs on French motorways the 'priority' system used on busy routes such as the periph is, in effect, used throughout the French m'way system, one tends to get in the habit of moving left as one approaches a busy merge. Works just fine BUT French drivers observe the keep right unless overtaking, you'll be fined if a patrol car sees you hogging....

As to Irish m'way driving it reflects the 'I'm in a big car, bugger off' mentality - beloved of 4x4 drivers, which is the norm on Irish roads. It is not helped by the signs on 2/3 lane roads where the left lane is marked 'slow lane' so, 'I'm in a big car I don't go slow'.....

However, the biscuit of Irish m'ways is the 'reserved for garda cars' mound with only one entry/exit, on the 'down' side, requiring a garda car to reverse up on to it.....wtf......This is the norm on the recently completed sections of the M8....

sesna

Bards wrote: »

Unless you are a member of the Gardai then you have no right to enforce the Speed Limit by blocking Lane 3, and in fact can be dangerous

Its not a question of enforcing. I am referring to when you are overtaking a continuous stream of traffic at the speed limit in lane 3 but yet you still manage to get drivers tail-gating in an attempt to force you into lane 2.

LookBehindYou

If the Gardai put more effort in to policing lane discipline and the use of indicators,use of mobile phones while driving, instead of looking for vehicles traveling at a few km over the posted limits, it would do a lot more for road safety.

Eru

Ah bless another anti-Garda rant thread that is full of incorrect statements.

So let me begin:

murphaph wrote: »

My German girlfriend asked me on our recent trip to Ireland, "how come so many drivers just stay in the overtaking lane?".

No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane. All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???

murphaph wrote: »

The cops in Berlin were out checking for snow on car roofs today because it can be dangerous if you don't clear it off before setting off as it can easily blow onto the car behind's windscren or slide forward onto your own when you brake. They don't just sit in laybys with speed guns here.

Can you clarify this please? THe police were wandering around stationary vehicles and chekcing the roofs for snow? Is this correct and do you honestly believe this saves mkore lives than stopping speeding during snow storms?

murphaph wrote: »

The Gardai are actually often the biggest offenders on the roads. They are often the sh!ttiest drivers too.

I will not get into this other than to request evidence of this across the board allegation.

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Lane 1 -Left lane should have HGV's ,Rigid trucks or slow moving vehicles but more than the 50kmph

Lane 2 -Middle lane

Lane 3- This is the overtaking lane and vehicle should then move back to lane 2 when it is safe to do so. Lane 3 should be free most of the time.
Yes i have seen and experienced vehicles staying in Lane 3 and doing 120kmph. These drivers are idiots and must be on some sort of ego trip.

Completely wrong in law. Dont simple quote a passage from the rules of the road and state them as fact or law. All lanes on the road are equal.

And may I ask, if a car is doing 120kms on the motorway why or how would they be blocking you? They are at the limit for goodness sakes!

wellbutty wrote: »

1) A jeep parked up on the hard shoulder on the M1 near Drogheda. The two fellas were outside the jeep, under an overpass (to avoid the rain) eating sandwiches and drinking tea.

The bastards! How dare they take a break from driving for 8 hours straight, surely falling asleep at the wheel is the far better option and nwhat difference did this make to you?

wellbutty wrote: »

On a recent spin to Derry over Christmas, I was amazed at how many people in this country have no idea what they're doing on a motorway and how the gardai can fail to see the following:

How many offences do you reckong you DIDNT see on your trip? Perhaps the Gardai were busy delaing with the thousands of offences that escape your all seeing eye.

wellbutty wrote: »

2) Carlow bypass...saw two cars parked up on the hard shoulder, owners having a p*ss in a nearby field

Fair enough you shouldnt do this does this really effect you and why werent you concentrating on the actual road in front of you?

wellbutty wrote: »

3) Carlow bypass...abandonded car, which had been there at least 24 hours as it was fully frosted over. Why was it not towed away?

What law was being broken by this broken down car and what powers do the Gardai have to remove this vehicle? Act and section please. Also please try to remember that frost doesnt take 24 hours to form, It takes only a fraction of that.

wellbutty wrote: »

4) M1 near Drogheda, jeep buried in the crash barrier in the middle of the road, no one in it or near it. It had been there at least 24 hours. No warning signs, why was it not towed away?

As above but with the added option that its wedged in, needs to be cut out or possible needs to be examined as part of a fatal crash investigation. Of course I also need to ask, how did you know it was there so long?

wellbutty wrote: »

Meanwhile a car passed me doing around 135kmh and was caught by the fixed speed camera.:

And this is a bad thing? The only example of an actual criminal act was caught. SDounds good to me but then I dont speed.

wellbutty wrote: »

Yes we dont have emergency phones on all motorways yet, yes we dont have service stations yet. We rarely have signs indicating that parking areas are in 5, 10, 15 kilometers etc. But how stupid can people be? Rant over... :mad:

I dont really see your point. 3 cars pulled over on the hard shoulder for a minute for drivers to stretch their legs, etc. 1 car broken down and 1 car obviously crashed. Why do you think this is an example of terrible driving?

Carawaystick

Eru wrote: »

Ah bless another anti-Garda rant thread that is full of incorrect statements.

So let me begin:


No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane. All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???

So it's legal to overtake in all circumstances on the left? despite all our recieved wisdom about why this is not allowed?

Eru wrote: »

I will not get into this other than to request evidence of this across the board allegation.

A female garda crashed into a bus stop and killed an old woman a few years ago. When she went to trial she claimed the tyres were bald and it wasn't her fault.
Another garda ran over and killed a man on the bridge in Lucan.

Eru wrote: »

Completely wrong in law. Dont simple quote a passage from the rules of the road and state them as fact or law. All lanes on the road are equal.

How come HGV drivers can get penalty points for driving in the rightmost lane of a motorway where the speedlimit is higher than 80kmh if all lanes are equal?
How come failure to drive on the left is a penalty point offence?

Eru wrote: »

The bastards! How dare they take a break from driving for 8 hours straight, surely falling asleep at the wheel is the far better option and nwhat difference did this make to you?

Roads act, 1993, section43, subsection(3) (4) (a)
pedestrians are not allowed on a motorway.

Eru wrote: »

And this is a bad thing? The only example of an actual criminal act was caught. SDounds good to me but then I dont speed.

I think several criminal acts were committed. are you a cop?

SC024

sesna wrote: »

Keeping left unless overtaking is simple in theory, but in heavy volumes of traffic, its easy to have to drive the full length of the m50 as you are constantly overtaking.

If one is to move into lane 2 when a gap of a few hundred meters appears, it often means you have sacrificed your position in lane 3, as a long line of fast moving cars occupies that space, preventing you from re-entering it until they have all passed.

Also if you are driving at 120kmp/h (or whatever the motorway speed-limit is) in lane 3, why would anyone want to overtake you? Why obey one law in order to facilitate someone else breaking the law on the speed limit?

Stopping or preventing other people speeding/breaking traffic laws has absolutely nothing to do with either you or I... Thats the job of the gardai....

LookBehindYou

ERU, question.

Can you clarify more about all lanes being equal please.

I am not in to garda bashing.

murphaph

Eru wrote: »

No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane.

You are supposed to (by law) only overtake on the left, therefore "overtaking lane" is a general (not legal) term for the lane in which one should overtake at a given moment. It could be lane 2, lane 3 or even lane 4. So how would you describe the lane in which one should overtake in a general sense in less than 10 words without using "overtaking lane"? Everyone else knew what I meant. :rolleyes:

Eru wrote: »

All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???

This is claptrap. It is NOT permitted to overtake to the left and it IS a legal requirement that you stay in the leftmost lane unless overtaking. The Autobahn is the same (in reverse obviously). The difference between Germany and Ireland is that you are actually quite likely to be fined and pointed in Germany for not staying right unless overtaking. There's very little chance of that in Ireland (in the Republic that is, the PSNI are a different story).

Eru wrote: »

Can you clarify this please? THe police were wandering around stationary vehicles and chekcing the roofs for snow?

No, they set up these things called checkpoints and stick a ruler into the snow on your car. If it's more than x cm deep you get a fine and a good ticking off.

Eru wrote: »

Is this correct and do you honestly believe this saves mkore lives than stopping speeding during snow storms?

They do stop people speeding (during all weather conditions). People drive very carefully here in general as they know there's a good chance they'll get caught if they misbehave. That fear is pretty much absent in Ireland due in no small part to the total lack of enforcement of the various Road Traffic Acts, apart from speeding and drink driving (easy to prove in court, no real effort required).

Your attitude shows that you believe speeding checks are the be all and end all of road policing. They are not. Drivers aren't stupid-they quickly learn what offences will likely land them with a fine and points and careless driving etc. isn't one of them. They know the cops focus by in large on speeding and drink driving, leaving the myriad of other offences on the statute books almost totally unenforced.

Illegal parking can be fatal...think about it....parking on a corner or before a ped crossing reduces visibility of child stepping onto roadway and causes fatality. See that?

Eru wrote: »

I will not get into this other than to request evidence of this across the board allegation.

The Gardai have killed people a few times in well publicised incidents. But quite apart from that I'm talking about the day to day failure to set an example on the roads such as illegal parking above.

**Timbuk2**

Can I hijack this thread with a question about motorway driving/etiquette?

When you are driving on a motorway, and are approaching a ramp where traffic will be merging onto the motorway, should you move into the overtaking lane to let traffic merge? I know you don't have to by law, but is it advised, or is it recommended to just stay in the left lane if you are not overtaking?

murphaph

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Can I hijack this thread with a question about motorway driving/etiquette?

When you are driving on a motorway, and are approaching a ramp where traffic will be merging onto the motorway, should you move into the overtaking lane to let traffic merge? I know you don't have to by law, but is it advised, or is it recommended to just stay in the left lane if you are not overtaking?

It's not required by law as you rightly say. I consider it good etiquette however and it is conveyed to German learner drivers that it it good etiquette by their instructors. I do it myself if safe to do so.

corktina

you either adjust your speed or your lane to accomodate joiners, who should be using the full length of the acceleration lane to match their speed to the speed of lane 1

munchkin_utd

In germany in the driving lessons its taught as a bit of good etiquite and as a safety measure to maneuvre out to allow traffic to merge onto the motorway. You're not legally obliged to but if its a copped on thing to do in germany then also would be the same in Ireland.

And as you are asking random questions......
Apart from the requisite fine, if you are driving over the limit on a motorway, what can the guards do you for apart from the fine?

I mean, if you are doing 140 or 160 (or 180) on an empty motorway (errr. the empty bits of the road from Dublin to Cork or Waterford that probably shouldnt have been a motorway in the first place for the lack of traffic) you really arent guilty of dangerous driving as theres nobody else on the road to be dangerous to!!
So is there something i am missing?

Its 80 quid fine for being 5 kmh over the limit. Its the same 80 quid for being 20 or 40 or 60 kmh over. So no benefit in staying a shade over the limit.
So if I dont mind the 80 quid and am in a rush, I'm as well go as fast as possible as its the same punishment as slighly breaking the rules!!

sesna

SC024 wrote: »

[/U]

Stopping or preventing other people speeding/breaking traffic laws has absolutely nothing to do with either you or I... Thats the job of the gardai....

Its not a matter of policing. However, if you are overtaking gradually in lane 1, why bother moving into another lane if you are already driving the speed limit. No-one will be able to legally overtake you anyway.

L1011

Firstly, if you are a member of the Gardai I despair for this country.

Eru wrote: »

No such thing in Irish road traffic law as an 'overtaking' lane. All lanes on the motorway are legally equal and can be used within the legal limit. In fact is there an overtaking lane on the autobahn???

This is completely and utterly incorrect. Passing on the right was first mandated in 1937 by SI 222/1937, and has been enshrined in law ever since.

Eru wrote: »

Completely wrong in law. Dont simple quote a passage from the rules of the road and state them as fact or law. All lanes on the road are equal.

You're completely wrong. SI 182/1997 (s10.4) is the most recent legislation banning passing on the left except in specific circumstances.

Eru wrote: »

And may I ask, if a car is doing 120kms on the motorway why or how would they be blocking you? They are at the limit for goodness sakes!

A small hatchback doing what their speedometer indicates is 120km/h will, in many cases, be going well below the limit

Eru wrote: »

The bastards! How dare they take a break from driving for 8 hours straight, surely falling asleep at the wheel is the far better option and nwhat difference did this make to you?

Stopping (and seperately, getting out of the car) on a motorway is both illegal and lethally dangerous. The M1 has many, many exits which someone can leave by to take a break.

Eru wrote: »

What law was being broken by this broken down car and what powers do the Gardai have to remove this vehicle? Act and section please. Also please try to remember that frost doesnt take 24 hours to form, It takes only a fraction of that.

SI 182/1997 (s33.3) covers this also. If you break down on a motorway you are oblidged to seek the Gardai's assistance to have the vehicle removed.

I could search to find the Gardai's seperate powers to move vehicles stopped on the motorway but I don't see the point.

Eru wrote: »

As above but with the added option that its wedged in, needs to be cut out or possible needs to be examined as part of a fatal crash investigation. Of course I also need to ask, how did you know it was there so long?

The outer lane should be closed in this circumstance. I can guarantee you it wasn't.

Eru wrote: »

I dont really see your point. 3 cars pulled over on the hard shoulder for a minute for drivers to stretch their legs, etc. 1 car broken down and 1 car obviously crashed. Why do you think this is an example of terrible driving?

People stopping on a motorway is terrible driving. Abandoned cars - broken down or crashed - on a motorway is terrible road control.

Once again, if you actually are a Guard, I despair. Please let your Super know you need an urgent return to Templemore.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

A small hatchback doing what their speedometer indicates is 120km/h will, in many cases, be going well below the limit

Link for this assertion please ?

I suppose by similiar logic I can only surmise that driving a larger car will also wrongly indicate a slower speed than one is actually travelling. Would explain why large blacked out SUV's are such assholes for tailgating on the motorway

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Link for this assertion please ?

I suppose by similiar logic I can only surmise that driving a larger car will also wrongly indicate a slower speed than one is actually travelling. Would explain why large blacked out SUV's are such assholes for tailgating on the motorway

Smaller (well, slower) cars generally have a worse % over-read than bigger ones, but this doesn't carry to big cars showing less.

Analogue speedometers in general over-read, there is even a specific allowance for how much they're allowed over-read, which I can't remember right now. But they are not allowed under-read at all.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Smaller (well, slower) cars generally have a worse % over-read than bigger ones, but this doesn't carry to big cars showing less.

Analogue speedometers in general over-read, there is even a specific allowance for how much they're allowed over-read, which I can't remember right now. But they are not allowed under-read at all.

The amount of under-read is generally not more than 3% and applies to all vehicles. The original argument is not negated, considering the difference in travel is neglible at approximately 4kmph - someone may be travelling at 116kmph while their speedo indicated 120.

bmaxi

corktina wrote: »

you either adjust your speed or your lane to accomodate joiners, who should be using the full length of the acceleration lane to match their speed to the speed of lane 1

This is precisely what doesn't happen. Many motorists do not match speed and will join the carriageway at the first opportunity, often, it would appear, without even consulting their rear view mirrors. This is a lethal practice and should be clamped down on hard but as has been already alluded to, enforcement of traffic law, with a couple of notable exceptions, is non existent.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

The amount of under-read is generally not more than 3% and applies to all vehicles. The original argument is not negated, considering the difference in travel is neglible at approximately 4kmph - someone may be travelling at 116kmph while their speedo indicated 120.

I've got a car (Fiat Panda 100) which under-reads about twice that, speedo indicated 120 is 112km/h by GPS. It can be made worse by changing tyres or wheels to give a different rolling radius (smaller makes the over-read worse, I think, brain doesn't work this late on a weekend!)

Digital speedo on my work van is accurate to 1km/h at 150km/h, though.

And if you're going along at 120km/h, they're still holding you up at 116km/h

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I've got a car (Fiat Panda 100) which under-reads about twice that, speedo indicated 120 is 112km/h by GPS. It can be made worse by changing tyres or wheels to give a different rolling radius (smaller makes the over-read worse, I think, brain doesn't work this late on a weekend!)

Digital speedo on my work van is accurate to 1km/h at 150km/h, though.

And if you're going along at 120km/h, they're still holding you up at 116km/h

What makes you think your GPS is giving you the actual speed of travel, especially considering GPS are only accurate to within 10-20 feet (as opposed to military GPS which is accurate to within 1 foot)

L1011

sesna wrote: »

What makes you think your GPS is giving you the actual speed of travel, especially considering GPS are only accurate to within 10-20 feet (as opposed to military GPS which is accurate to within 1 foot)

If your GPS is inaccurate to 20 foot at one position, its inaccurate to 20 foot at another one a few inches away. GPS speed readings are extremely, extremely accurate. The GPS spec suggests accuracy of 0.1mph; handbook for my unit gives a more conservative +\-1km/h.

The difference between consumer and military GPS is "selective availability". Which is turned off - consumer units are as accurate as military ones and have been for quite some time - Bill Clinton signed the executive order to do this!!

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

If your GPS is inaccurate to 20 foot at one position, its inaccurate to 20 foot at another one a few inches away. GPS speed readings are extremely, extremely accurate. The GPS spec suggests accuracy of 0.1mph; handbook for my unit gives a more conservative +\-1km/h.

The difference between consumer and military GPS is "selective availability". Which is turned off - consumer units are as accurate as military ones and have been for quite some time - Bill Clinton signed the executive order to do this!!

Being inaccurate to 20 feet does not mean it is consistently 20 feet out. It may be perfectly accurate to the true position at one point and a second later be 20 feet out or a range of somewhere in between 0-20 feet.