Ireland's abortion laws challenged in Europe

minidazzler

CathyMoran wrote: »

Have you seen an unborn child at 5 weeks...OK at that stage it is only a hear beat but by 12 weeks there are kicking arms and legs, a moving jaw and it is very much alive...

Technically it could be described as a Parasite at that stage.

If a woman has no desire to go through pregnancy she should not have to. That is my view. I used to be an Idealist too, thinking "No abortion except in very extenuating curcumstances" But situations changed my mind.

fatmammycat

"You cant justify an abortion because it will make the mothers life difficult if she has it, I imagine that not being born would be not great for the child."

More hyperbole. We don't get to decide the justifications any woman uses over her own body are the right ones. Since when do the rights of a 12 week old fetus trump the rights of a grown woman?

Xiney

Let's not start the whole "at x weeks they have a heartbeat" and so on.

If you eat meat, you kill things for your lifestyle.

If you drive, you've certainly murdered a few animals over the years.

If you wear clothing produced in sweatshops (Not just Penney's and Dunnes, but also most of the High Street), you enslave humans.



None of us are innocent, in this world. We all do horrible things to things with heart beats.

Getting bent out of shape over what is essentially a parasite in a woman's uterus (granted it has half her DNA) is silly. Especially if she doesn't want it there in the first place.



I recognize that you have personal reasons for your feelings - your struggle with infertility and your husband's adoption as well as your challenges with obtaining adoption clearances yourselves are all well documented on boards. However, they are your own personal reasons and they have no bearing on my personal reasons or the next person's personal reasons. We all have our own moral code to live by. And were I not in a stable relationship with a man I love and want to have children with someday, an unplanned pregnancy would result in me aborting it. I am not a baby factory for the childless. It is my body and I will do with it what I see fit. (And if that involves scoffing entire sleeves of ginger nut biscuits well, then... )

CathyMoran

I accept that my curcumstances are unusual but I still find it difficult to not let another human being live...am bowing out gracefully now. Sorry, am trying to see the other side but I cant justify it to myself, would rather we kept abortion out of Ireland.

fatmammycat

I would rather inclusive health care was available to Irish women in Ireland. But either way, I wish you continued success in your pregnancy Cathy.

MagicMarker

You don't need to justify it to yourself, no one has to have an abortion. But your personal opinion shouldn't have any say in the rights of others who obviously don't share your views.

minidazzler

MagicMarker wrote: »

You don't need to justify it to yourself, no one has to have an abortion. But your personal opinion shouldn't have any say in the rights of others who obviously don't share your views.

Said more eloquently than I could have gotten it!

In my opinion, it's about the mothers wishes, so it shouldn't be about what everyone in the country thinks, it should simply be legal.

pookie82

minidazzler wrote: »

Said more eloquently than I could have gotten it!

In my opinion, it's about the mothers wishes, so it shouldn't be about what everyone in the country thinks, it should simply be legal.

Kind of like gay marriage really. Who are we to tell other people they can't do what's right for them because of our small mindedness?

Khannie

minidazzler wrote: »

almost every other country has abortion, why not us?

What a ridiculous notion. The answer is blatant: Our laws are different because our country is different. What suits one nation does not suit another.

Sure maybe we should have more relaxed gun laws here eh? Almost every other country has.

minidazzler wrote: »

The Referenda that have taken place mean nothing TBH, because feck all people actually vote.

Another load of ridiculousness. Those who don't vote forfeit their right to influence the decision. By your logic we should never have a referendum ever because there are lots of lazy people.

Khannie

pookie82 wrote: »

Who are we to tell other people they can't do what's right for them because of our small mindedness?

Every law tells you what you are and aren't allowed to do.

What if I want to rob you, should I not be allowed to do that?

fatmammycat

You could try, but I'm pretty sure I could outrun you just now.

Khannie

Xiney wrote: »

Let's not start the whole "at x weeks they have a heartbeat" and so on.

If you eat meat, you kill things for your lifestyle.

If you drive, you've certainly murdered a few animals over the years.

If you wear clothing produced in sweatshops (Not just Penney's and Dunnes, but also most of the High Street), you enslave humans.

What a load of rubbish. Are you honestly trying compare accidentally driving over a rat to the abortion of a human fetus?

Or that cows should have the same rights as humans?

Come on.

If we shouldn't start the "at X weeks" thing, at what point do you decide that it's a human that shouldn't be killed? 10 seconds before it's born? You absolutely *need* a marker.

Xiney wrote: »

Getting bent out of shape over what is essentially a parasite in a woman's uterus (granted it has half her DNA) is silly.

Seriously, that's a horrible (and evocative) word to use to describe a foetus.

pookie82

Look is seems to me that those on here who are about to have babies are notably emotive about this. And understandably so. But knowing that you want your baby doesn't give you the right to dictate whether other people should have that choice or not.

And yes laws tell us what to do, and in my opinion this one needs to change.

Khannie

pookie82 wrote: »

those on here who are about to have babies are notably emotive about this.

I don't think we're the only ones to be fair. You need only look at minidazzlers posts to see that. Try not to single me out because I'm on the other side of the fence to you. Cheers.

edit: And yes I'm emotive about it. It's an emotive issue. Like I said 5 pages ago, this thread is destined to end badly like every other attempted discussion on abortion on the internet.

Xiney

Khannie wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Are you honestly trying compare accidentally driving over a rat to the abortion of a human fetus?

Or that cows should have the same rights as humans?

Come on.

If we shouldn't start the "at X weeks" thing, at what point do you decide that it's a human that shouldn't be killed? 10 seconds before it's born? You absolutely *need* a marker.




Seriously, that's a horrible (and evocative) word to use to describe a foetus.

I'm saying that just because something is alive and has a heart beat (as cows do) doesn't mean it has the same rights as a human being. I eat steak. I'll abort an embryo/foetus. I won't murder, rob or otherwise infringe upon the rights of a human being.

I think a good marker is the point at which 50% of births are viable without excessive medical intervention. This would likely be somewhere in the third trimester.

As far as horrible and evocative, the pro-life camp have far more to answer for in this regard. I love babies. I love children. But I do not HAVE TO give birth if I get pregnant.

pookie82

Khannie wrote: »

I don't think we're the only ones to be fair. You need only look at minidazzlers posts to see that. Try not to single me out because I'm on the other side of the fence to you. Cheers.

edit: And yes I'm emotive about it. It's an emotive issue. Like I said 5 pages ago, this thread is destined to end badly like every other attempted discussion on abortion on the internet.

I didn't single you out alone. There were other people on here that had babies coming along too.

Jeez, calm down. Wanting your own baby doesn't give you the right to dictate what others will do with theirs. End of story.

fatmammycat

What a load of rubbish. Are you honestly trying compare accidentally driving over a rat to the abortion of a human fetus?

Or that cows should have the same rights as humans?

Come on.

I think this was to denote sentience. Not about comparison. And even parasite is perfectly correct. A wanted fetus is often described as a baby from conception, and unwanted one can easily be described as a parasite.

iguana

Khannie wrote: »

Those who don't vote forfeit their right to influence the decision. By your logic we should never have a referendum ever because there are lots of lazy people.

But the thing is there was ONE referendum in Ireland about whether to ever allow abortion or not. That's it. One. In 1983. Over 26 years ago. There are children in our school born to parents who were not yet born at the time that referendum happened. There are women who are entering menopause now who were too young to vote in that referendum. And a huge chunk of the people who voted in that referendum are dead. It doesn't count anymore because there is a different electorate now.

I'm 31, I'm more than half way through the fertile period of my life yet I've never gotten to vote on whether I think abortion should be allowed or not. Ever.

The state does not have to right to claim that they have a popular mandate on this issue. They may, they may not. I suspect they do not as they will not allow us to vote properly on the issue. At the very least they suspect they do not. It is time we had a proper referendum on this issue. With a series of amendments, each proposing a level of availability of abortion.

Khannie

Xiney wrote: »

As far as horrible and evocative, the pro-life camp have far more to answer for in this regard.

I'm not a pro-life campaigner.

Khannie

iguana wrote: »

But the thing is there was ONE referendum in Ireland about whether to ever allow abortion or not.

If you read back you'll see that I'm all game for a referendum. I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness of discarding previous referenda (in general).

Khannie

pookie82 wrote: »

Jeez, calm down. Wanting your own baby doesn't give you the right to dictate what others will do with theirs. End of story.

Look, I'm about the only person left in this thread who doesn't like abortion. It is emotive for me for a variety of reasons. You needn't assume that my position on abortion is purely based on me having a child on the way. It is not.

pookie82

Khannie wrote: »

If you read back you'll see that I'm all game for a referendum. I was merely pointing out the ridiculousness of discarding previous referenda (in general).

You should read the whole post before quoting. If you do you'll see that the poster put forward a valid point for disregarding previous results - they weren't the results of this generation and therefore do not reflect the modern viewpoint.

Khannie

pookie82 wrote: »

You should read the whole post before quoting. If you do you'll see that the poster put forward a valid point for disregarding previous results - they weren't the results of this generation and therefore do not reflect the modern viewpoint.

I read the whole post. His point was general. That we should disregard the results of previous referenda "because feck all people actually vote". That's utter nonsense.

LivingDeadGirl

I do believe that being denied an abortion in my own country enfringes upon my human rights. I never ever want children. Now I know anyone on here who knows my age will probably think 'sure she'll probably change her mind in a few years,' but I have issues from my own childhood that have tainted my view of having children, it will never be for me.
I am Pro-choice, and live in a Pro-life house. If I fell preganant and consequently wanted an abortion, having to travel to another country to do this would make it a difficult thing to hide, not to mention the extra expense, the abortion itself would cost enough as it is (unemployed student here). So I might even be down to two choices in this scenario, I'd either be forced to have a child I don't want or destroy my family (I don't think they'd ever speak to me again).
Just because others think it is wrong to abort a foetus does not mean I should be forced to have a child I don't want should I fall pregnant. I don't believe society has the right to enforce motherhood on women.

pookie82

Khannie wrote: »

I read the whole post. His point was general. That we should disregard the results of previous referenda "because feck all people actually vote". That's utter nonsense.

In his/her second post, the one you quoted, it had a valid point about why we need another referendum. And you began your reply to that by saying "I haven't read all your post" but then edited it before I had a chance to quote you saying that.

Xiney

Khannie wrote: »

I'm not a pro-life campaigner.

I never said you were.

maryjane007

LivingDeadGirl wrote: »

I do believe that being denied an abortion in my own country enfringes upon my human rights. I never ever want children. Now I know anyone on here who knows my age will probably think 'sure she'll probably change her mind in a few years,' but I have issues from my own childhood that have tainted my view of having children, it will never be for me.
I am Pro-choice, and live in a Pro-life house. If I fell preganant and consequently wanted an abortion, having to travel to another country to do this would make it a difficult thing to hide, not to mention the extra expense, the abortion itself would cost enough as it is (unemployed student here). So I might even be down to two choices in this scenario, I'd either be forced to have a child I don't want or destroy my family (I don't think they'd ever speak to me again).
Just because others think it is wrong to abort a foetus does not mean I should be forced to have a child I don't want should I fall pregnant. I don't believe society has the right to enforce motherhood on women.

there are planty of methods you can use to ensure you dont get pregnant.

no sympathy for extra expense you got pregnant not the taxpayers why should we pay?

motherhood is not enforced on anyone contraception is freely available

MagicMarker

Contraception is not 100% effective and who said anything about the tax payers paying for anything?

minidazzler

Khannie wrote: »

Another load of ridiculousness. Those who don't vote forfeit their right to influence the decision. By your logic we should never have a referendum ever because there are lots of lazy people.

The previous Abortion Referendum was a failure, think about it like Lisbon 1, The Church were the most staunch opposition of Abortion in this country.

At that time it could be argued alot more people attended church adn believed what the Priest had to say. Could that be true?

I believe that in todays Ireland Abortion would pass Referendum.

LivingDeadGirl

maryjane007 wrote: »

there are planty of methods you can use to ensure you dont get pregnant.

no sympathy for extra expense you got pregnant not the taxpayers why should we pay?

motherhood is not enforced on anyone contraception is freely available

How do you know I'm not using contraception?

How would the taxpayers be paying for it?

Yes I know it is, and I avail of it.