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Ireland's abortion laws challenged in Europe

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    #152
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Most people will but it is still not illegal.
    If she were giving a child an new born infact the same ammount of drugs as she is the fetus in side her, she would be doing something illegal and could be charged for it.




    You are not a person until you are born and the rights a person/child has bestowed on them via the constitution and body of law are conveyed upon birth.

    If there is a miscarriage or a still birth is is only recognized and recorded under certain cirtiea.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/miscarriage-and-stillbirth/registering_stillbirth



    They do not count before that, so really please go educate yourself on the so called 'rights' of the unborn in this country which you are espousing incorrectly.

    I'm not asking what are the rights, i'm asking people do you think it's right?


    Does 500g define life? Does it define who gets rights and who doesn't?

    If a babies under 500g you can booze it up in the uterus but over 500g and passed through a vagina and you're bestowed all these rights


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    #153
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    jimmyendless wrote: »
    When you have kids it really makes the topic as emotional as a topic can be.

    So you think that having children gives you a special insight that makes your opinion more valid?


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    #154
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Since when did this become about a woman on Drugs, I think Abortion should be legal simple as that. I have presented my reasons as a woman should have a right to choose what goes in and out of her body, unless she is mentally ill.

    It was just a scenario that you can think about or people who are reading on bodily integrity of a mother and child. Its only to get people and hopefully yourself thinking


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    #155
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    PomBear wrote: »
    I'm not asking what are the rights, i'm asking people do you think it's right?

    Nope you were on about the rigths of the unborn and there you fail.

    PomBear wrote: »
    Does 500g define life? Does it define who gets rights and who doesn't?

    It does in terms of the state saying there was a baby there and granting aid to the parents who have suffered a still born and them getting time off work.
    PomBear wrote: »
    If a babies under 500g you can booze it up in the uterus but over 500g and passed through a vagina and you're bestowed all these rights

    My your quiet inflammatory poster when you get backed into a corner, you all all noise to signal in this thread at this stage.


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    #156
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Another classic myth trotted out by anti abortionist.
    The statics released by BPAS say either you or your friend is a liar.

    You can't say shes a liar, it's a long shot that it's true but nobody can say there's no chance that this doesn't happen. Agreed?


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    #157
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    PomBear wrote: »
    It was just a scenario that you can think about or people who are reading on bodily integrity of a mother and child. Its only to get people and hopefully yourself thinking

    Thinking about what? It makes no sense to bring it up really when I think ALL women should be entitled to do as they please.

    If they are pregnant and continue to abuse substances while pregnant, I think they should be jailed after they give birth, but other than that No views on this.


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    #158
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Since when did this become about a woman on Drugs, I think Abortion should be legal simple as that. I have presented my reasons as a woman should have a right to choose what goes in and out of her body, unless she is mentally ill.

    It is the prime example of anti abortion tactics to muddy the water and twist the discussion, seems to be something they are trained in, seen enough of it used over the last 15 year to know it when I see it.


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    #159
    jimmyendless
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭jimmyendless


    iguana wrote: »
    So you think that having children gives you a special insight that makes your opinion more valid?

    Its make me more emotional about the topic anyway. Opinions are opinions. How does validity come into it. I just stated where I'm coming from. Can we play the ball instead of the person here.


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    #160
    maryjane007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭maryjane007


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Another classic myth trotted out by anti abortionist.
    The statics released by BPAS say either you or your friend is a liar.

    "It is important that I should stress that the official UK abortion statistics for Irish women may well be understated, due to non disclosure of correct address. This may also apply to BPAS statistics. Conclusions as to the overall rate of Irish abortion or trends in any such rate should not be reached or regarded as reliable."

    http://www.ifpa.ie/eng/Media-Info-Centre/News-Events/Older-News-Events/2000-News-and-Events/IFPA-and-BPAS-Release-Detailed-Irish-Abortion-Statistics


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    #161
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Nope you were on about the rigths of the unborn and there you fail.

    i'm questioning the difference of rights between the unborn and born



    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It does in terms of the state saying there was a baby there and granting aid to the parents who have suffered a still born and them getting time off work.

    so do you think that legislation is right that parents griefs is decided on grief


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    My your quiet inflammatory poster when you get backed into a corner, you all all noise to signal in this thread at this stage.

    I don't think i've been backed into a corner once in this thread tbh

    I'll be back on later, enjoying the debate, will reply to you then


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    #162
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It is the prime example of anti abortion tactics to muddy the water and twist the discussion, seems to be something they are trained in, seen enough of it used over the last 15 year to know it when I see it.

    Yeah, have seen it myself, but I still fall for it every time!! :o:o


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    #163
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It is the prime example of anti abortion tactics to muddy the water and twist the discussion, seems to be something they are trained in, seen enough of it used over the last 15 year to know it when I see it.

    I've never been part of any anti abortion group or discussed abortion more than i did today. I'm not twisting the discussion. Again i'll explain I was using a random scenario to see what ye're views on the bodily integrity of mother and unborn child are. Not what legislation says


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    #164
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    They do not want a measured open rational discussion it suits them to have it extremely emotive and to derail discussion and get things so heated and vile that people stop reading and taking part in the discussion.


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    #165
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    PomBear wrote: »
    I've never been part of any anti abortion group or discussed abortion more than i did today. I'm not twisting the discussion. Again i'll explain I was using a random scenario to see what ye're views on the bodily integrity of mother and unborn child are. Not what legislation says

    If you want that debate take it to humanities.
    This thread is about the challenge to the laws atm not that topic.


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    #166
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    jimmyendless wrote: »
    Its make me more emotional about the topic anyway. Opinions are opinions. How does validity come into it. I just stated where I'm coming from. Can we play the ball instead of the person here.

    I wasn't playing you. I was asking what you meant by your first sentence as I wasn't sure. I also mis-typed and wrote So instead of Do at the start of my question. Damn qwerty keyboard.:o


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    #167
    jimmyendless
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭jimmyendless


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It is the prime example of anti abortion tactics to muddy the water and twist the discussion, seems to be something they are trained in, seen enough of it used over the last 15 year to know it when I see it.

    Every debate that goes on nowadays has muddied waters involved from all sides. Numbers are skewed, vested interests are involved. Sometimes the debates aren't worth starting for the output they produce. When people don't want to be wrong more than they want the truth of a topic to be known. Nothing can be done about it really but its abit off to say it can only be applied to one side.


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    #168
    jimmyendless
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭jimmyendless


    iguana wrote: »
    I wasn't playing you. I was asking what you meant by your first sentence as I wasn't sure. I also mis-typed and wrote So instead of Do at the start of my question. Damn qwerty keyboard.:o

    An S instead of a D really changes the tone.;)


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    #169
    PomBear
    Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    If you want that debate take it to humanities.
    This thread is about the challenge to the laws atm not that topic.

    Why not say that to everyone else who has post their views on abortion here and nothing to do with the case?

    My original argument was to do with the case, the replies were derailing as well as my own


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    #170
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Hey if there was a way to change things so that every child concieved was wanted and get rid of cirses pregnancies and only regretibly have abortions when there is dire medical need, I would love for it to happen but blanket contraception policies don't seem to be that popular of a debate.


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    #171
    Xiney
    Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Xiney


    PomBear, you seem to be the one derailing the topic.

    Stop it or you will be banned from the forum, since you seem to have only appeared today in order to post in this thread.


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    #172
    Xiney
    Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Xiney


    maryjane007 wrote: »
    i have a friend who works on an abortions clinics information in england. she has had people calling from ireland to arrange their 5 or 6th abortions.

    Dude, seriously? Hearsay? You expect to win us over with hearsay? Pfft.

    Second of all, even if this was true, would she be better off (or indeed would we be better off as a society) if she'd had those 6 children?!

    What about the children, with a mother that irresponsible?



    Dude. Seriously.


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    #173
    maryjane007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭maryjane007


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Another classic myth trotted out by anti abortionist.
    The statics released by BPAS say either you or your friend is a liar.


    this is your opinion but if you read my last post you will see that the statistics are not to be regarded as acurate, but why say i or my friend are liars? thats getting a bit personal isnt it?


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    #174
    Xiney
    Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Xiney


    maryjane007 wrote: »
    this is your opinion but if you read my last post you will see that the statistics are not to be regarded as acurate, but why say i or my friend are liars? thats getting a bit personal isnt it?

    Statistics > Hearsay

    One of the primary rules of interwebs debating




    Ok, have to go, be back later. Keep it civil or else.


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    #175
    Dr Kamikazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 211 ✭✭Dr Kamikazi


    maryjane007 wrote: »
    ok see this is why people have abortions they dont have the right education.

    You're dancing around the issue and deliberately playing dumb. You also seem to assume that people act rationally 100% of the time, especially when sex and maybe young age are involved.
    If you have a method that means that people can prevent pregnancies with 100% success even in case of rape, please do share!
    You waded in with a few extremely loose and ignorant comments and have as of yet to back up anything you say.
    That's trolling in anyone's book.
    Provide and answer or shut up.


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    #176
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Denying someone a right to terminate a pregnancy because others may abuse that right = logic fail.

    Hey, lets ban all prescription drugs while we're at it.


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    #177
    maryjane007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭maryjane007


    Dr Kamikazi wrote: »
    You're dancing around the issue and deliberately playing dumb. You also seem to assume that people act rationally 100% of the time, especially when sex and maybe young age are involved.
    If you have a method that means that people can prevent pregnancies with 100% success even in case of rape, please do share!
    You waded in with a few extremely loose and ignorant comments and have as of yet to back up anything you say.
    That's trolling in anyone's book.
    Provide and answer or shut up.

    early in the debate i was dipping in and out because i was 'multi tasking' since i have come back i have answered the comments directed at me or on my comments.

    you have agood point about people acting rationally, people should and have to live with the consequences of not acting rationally but thats the main point of any abortion debate, isnt it whether people should be responsible for their actions. i am expressing my opinions on normal women, normal pregnancies and not in cases of rape, abuse etc.


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    #178
    Xiney
    Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Xiney


    Dr Kamikazi wrote: »
    You're dancing around the issue and deliberately playing dumb. You also seem to assume that people act rationally 100% of the time, especially when sex and maybe young age are involved.
    If you have a method that means that people can prevent pregnancies with 100% success even in case of rape, please do share!
    You waded in with a few extremely loose and ignorant comments and have as of yet to back up anything you say.
    That's trolling in anyone's book.
    Provide and answer or shut up.

    Infracted. Consider this lenient, as it follows a mod request demand for civility from both sides.


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    #179
    bronte
    Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    maryjane007 wrote: »
    well as you said no method is 100% but there are a few which are more than 99% which means that the chances of getting pregnant would be one in 200 surely this combined with a condom would be the sensible approach. i am in my 30s and all my children to date were planned because if i dont want a child, i prevent it from happening. if i were to fall pregnant when i didnt want to be i live with it, it was my choice to have sex knowing the consequences. i have a friend who works on an abortions clinics information in england. she has had people calling from ireland to arrange their 5 or 6th abortions.

    i was talking about sex education is this what you did your post grad in or was it an attempt to make yourself feel superior

    You insinuated I wasn't educated.
    I informed you that I am.
    You seem to be the one attempting to make yourself feel superior.
    You say if you don't want a child you "prevent" it from happening.
    How?
    There is always a chance that it could happen even when using two methods of contraception correctly.


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    #180
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Dr Kamikazi wrote: »
    If you have a method that means that people can prevent pregnancies with 100% success even in case of rape, please do share!

    Got it! As soon as a male becomes capable of producing sperm he is castrated. Before the castration he has a number of sperm samples frozen so when he and his partner are ready to have a baby they still can. When he is in a sexual relationship he can be put on a regime of testosterone and viagra, so he's still capable of sex. It would have to be a compulsory worldwide initiative and there would need to be careful monitoring of the young boys as they enter puberty to make sure they are not allowed to be sexually active while they still have their testicles.

    That's about it. Because even abstinence doesn't work 100% of the time, we all know of women who became pregnant following a rape. We all know there is no such thing as a 100% effective contraceptives, even vasectomies and female sterilisations can reverse themselves unbeknownst to the individual. I know of a woman who was on the pill and using condoms when having sex. The condom split and the next morning she was sick so she decided to see her doctor the following day and was given a MAP. She still got pregnant.


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    #181
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    bronte wrote: »
    You insinuated I wasn't educated.
    I informed you that I am.
    You seem to be the one attempting to make yourself feel superior.
    You say if you don't want a child you "prevent" it from happening.
    How?
    There is always a chance that it could happen even when using two methods of contraception correctly.

    The old reliables, clicking your heels together, wishing, douching with coke, that sort of thing.

    One reason I would like to see abortion in this country, I hate to bring up PI threads out of PI but this is relevant, a few weeks ago there was a girl (16 if I remember) Who was pregnant, her Boyfriend advised her to down a bottle of vodka to terminate.

    Does this sound right to you anti-Abortion people out there?


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