Ireland's abortion laws challenged in Europe

Khannie

WindSock wrote: »

Because I presume Irish society and values have changed a lot since then.

I don't think there's any great desire for abortion to be introduced here. Should we repeatedly hold (very expensive!!) referenda on issues until they get passed?

seamus

WindSock wrote: »

Pardon me, what does this stand for?

Edit: Fundamenal Rights?

ECFR is the European Charter of Fundamental Rights (of the EU). It's a legal document of the EU which details the inalieable rights of every EU citizen.

ECHR is the European Convention on Human Rights. A non-legal agreement document detailing the ideal set of rights which should be available to all citizens of countries which are signatories to the convention.

The ECHR and the ECFR are largely very similar, but their application is very different. The ECHR is not a document of the European Union, but of the Council of Europe, which is an entirely separate body. Should the Council of Europe (via the European Court of Human Rights) find Ireland "guilty", then it's basically saying that Ireland has breached it's agreement to the convention and anyone who has suffered due to this breach is entitled to compensation.

Ireland can continue to breach this convention without international penalty, however it would continue to have to pay compensation to affected parties or withdraw from the convention. Where a country is found to be in breach of the convention, it makes good sense for them to change/clarify their laws to bring them in line with the convention, but this is not a requirement.

The ECFR is not being challenged in this case and as such, this case cannot force abortion on Ireland under any circumstances.

PomBear

Khannie wrote: »

Not a firm believer in democracy then, eh? :rolleyes:

I actually believe an abortion bill would pass in Ireland today

WindSock

Khannie wrote: »

Not a firm believer in democracy then, eh? :rolleyes:

You can excercise your democratic right by not having one. Don't mind what everyone else is doing if it doesn't personally affect you. Unless you are the father of course, but if she has made her mind up she will probably hop on the boat as it is.

fatmammycat

Also I would question the 'abortion suicide' link.
http://feministsforchoice.com/new-study-debunks-abortion-trauma-syndrome.htm

A lot of those sudies are not suprisingly religious in roots.

fatmammycat

Khannie wrote: »

I don't think there's any great desire for abortion to be introduced here. Should we repeatedly hold (very expensive!!) referenda on issues until they get passed?

Why not, we did with Lisbon.

Khannie

PomBear wrote: »

I actually believe an abortion bill would pass in Ireland today

I don't. Just a gut feeling. I'm off to the Rotunda to see a scan of my baby (not a joke! ). Happy abusing each other!

WindSock

Khannie wrote: »

I don't think there's any great desire for abortion to be introduced here. Should we repeatedly hold (very expensive!!) referenda on issues until they get passed?

Well....seems to be the fashion these days.

PomBear

fatmammycat wrote: »

They're not hiding anything, they're mature adults who made a choice and have no regrets about it, something pro-life or 'enforced pregnancy' folk don't seem to understand.

As I said from personal experience, not pro life agenda. Sorry for offence caused

fatmammycat

Khannie wrote: »

I don't. Just a gut feeling. I'm off to the Rotunda to see a scan of my baby (not a joke! ). Happy abusing each other!

Congrats on your baby.

pookie82

In a country where Fianna Fail have been repeatedly voted into power and where there are still people who will support the Catholic church, no.

But that's a whole different debate.

Khannie

WindSock wrote: »

You can excercise your democratic right by not having one. Don't mind what everyone else is doing if it doesn't personally affect you. Unless you are the father of course, but if she has made her mind up she will probably hop on the boat as it is.

My question was only whether she felt that the government should force a change in the law against the will of the people, her answer was yes. That would be undemocratic (and in this case unconstitutional).

WindSock

pookie82 wrote: »

In a country where Fianna Fail have been repeatedly voted into power and where there are still people who will support the Catholic church, no.

But that's a whole different debate.

Supports for both are waning very fast though...

PomBear

fatmammycat wrote: »

Also I would question the 'abortion suicide' link.
http://feministsforchoice.com/new-study-debunks-abortion-trauma-syndrome.htm

A lot of those sudies are not suprisingly religious in roots.

check references maybe?

If they don't have any, check other websites.

Most people would give the same credibility to neo-christians as they would neo-feminists


i'm heading offline,have to study, will contribute to the thread later, if it's not locked

pookie82

Well past their time though.

Would be interesting to have another abortion referendum here now. I understand the reluctance to keep putting a vote to people when they have refused something once (as with Lisbon) but attitudes and socities do change.

I don't think it's to anyone's detriment that issues like this are revisited every few years.

all the stars

Khannie wrote: »

I don't think there's any great desire for abortion to be introduced here. Should we repeatedly hold (very expensive!!) referenda on issues until they get passed?

what, like the Lisbon Treaty?

panda100

WindSock wrote: »

When was the last time we had a referendum on abortion in Ireland?

Not regarding allowing to travel, but actual abortion here?

Because I presume Irish society and values have changed a lot since then.

1995 was the last referendum on it I think,regards information etc.

I'm pretty sure If there was a referendum tomorrow then abortion would be legalised. There was an Irish Times poll done around the time of the Miss D case and the majority were in favour.

What will happen If the EU court rule Ireland in breach of human Rights?

iguana

I doubt this court case will have much by way of definitive outcomes. The best I can see happening is that there are further rules put in place so that a woman in a situation like that of woman C can easily get honest advice about the health of the foetus and the impact of the pregnancy on her health. Afaik, this is already guaranteed for pregnant women, so if she really could not find a doctor willing to advise her that is disgraceful.

I don't really think the issue of the expense of traveling to Britain stands up though. A rail and sail ticket costs €44 each way and plane tickets can cost as little as €2.10 return, so the expense is not immense.

The attorney general's statement about Irish public opinion being proved through three referendums is crap though. The proposed amendment in the 2002 referendum was to further restrict the availability of abortion treatment and choice. If that referendum had passed the church was going to challenge the availability of the morning after pill and iud, and they would have won. When people voted no in 2002 they were mostly voting to protect their current rights. (There were some very hard-line pro-life groups also advocating a no vote as they thought the amendment was not strict enough.)

I was 14 in 1993, so I'm not sure of the exact details, but I remember my parents and some of my teachers who were pro-choice saying they were voting yes, yes, no. Yes to right of travel, yes to right of information, but no to the abortion rights being offered because the amendment was worded in a very limited and binding way. I can remember reading pro-choice leaflets that were urging yes, yes, no due to this, but I'm not sure exactly why. I think it was because the abortion was offered only if the woman was suicidal and the proposed measures for proving this were possibly unsafe? Perhaps someone older has a better memory. But I do know that a lot of no voters weren't opposed to abortion, just opposed to the wording of the amendment.

Khannie

pookie82 wrote: »

I don't think it's to anyone's detriment that issues like this are revisited every few years.

Agreed. The cost has to be an issue though (or at least it would be for me). I think the outcome of an independent poll would be a good starting point in deciding whether or not another referendum was due.

Actually gone now.

fmc: the baby hasn't been born yet...just in case you thought it had. We've 5 weeks to go. Thanks though.

fatmammycat

PomBear wrote: »

check references maybe?

If they don't have any, check other websites.

Most people would give the same credibility to neo-christians as they would neo-feminists

Well exactly, that's why hyperbole needs to be removed from the equation.
I am prochoice, I personally believe in a woman's right to bodily sovereignty. I think most women don't make the decision to terminate a pregnancy lightly and should be supported should they do so. I don't believe all women 'suffer' from making an abortion choice, my personal experience supports this. I don't believe in punishing a woman for having sex and I don't believe in enforced pregnancy. I don't believe in exporting our problem and making reproductive healthcare more expensive and difficult.
I would also welcome a pregnancy myself, but I am still pro choice, because what would suit me does not suit every woman and I don't believe their uterus is my business.

fatmammycat

Khannie wrote: »

Agreed. The cost has to be an issue though (or at least it would be for me). I think the outcome of an independent poll would be a good starting point in deciding whether or not another referendum was due.

Actually gone now.

fmc: the baby hasn't been born yet...just in case you thought it had. We've 5 weeks to go. Thanks though.

So exciting! I wish you good health and an easy few weeks.

pookie82

Khannie wrote: »

Agreed. The cost has to be an issue though (or at least it would be for me). I think the outcome of an independent poll would be a good starting point in deciding whether or not another referendum was due.

Actually gone now.

fmc: the baby hasn't been born yet...just in case you thought it had. We've 5 weeks to go. Thanks though.

Yes I appreciate that cost would be a factor but as you suggest, an independent pole would be a good indicator on whether it was time to revisit the law in this regard.

Best of luck with new baby, it'll be a great new year for you

CathyMoran

I had chemo and major surgery, was hard to concieve at first but am at 21 weeks now (after 5 mis)...none of the cases seem vaild to me. Yes if someome was on a medication that had hurt the baby (the risk of ectopic while vaild would mean that the baby would die if it was, at least give the poor angel a chance) but that does not appear to be the case here. They picked the wrong cases to fight for in my opinion...how about the poor women who have to go abroad if they find out that their babies have no brain or the fact that medical care seems to be compromised here if you are pregnant for risk of damaging the unborn child. I accept that I am pregnant and not fully rational at the moment (I love my child even though the pregnancy has taken a lot from me) but they seem just to be stirring rubbish here.

Xiney

As a firm member of the pro-choice camp (as if anybody is wishy washy on the issue) I disagree, Cathymoran. They are fighting for their own cases. Should they not be allowed to bring up their own experiences simply because they are not as "valid" as others?

The first case of the woman living in poverty with substance abuse issues who had already had children taken into care - how could her case be more valid? Not being able to provide proper care for a child resulting from an unplanned pregnancy is as much a reason as any to abort, imo. What if she hadn't been able to procure an abortion, and had had the child, only to have it taken away as well? What damage to her mental health, to her ability to get sober, could such an ordeal have caused? She seems to have turned her life around, (otherwise how could she be undertaking this court action?) so hopefully she has her other children back now as well.

I firmly believe in womens reproductive rights. I firmly believe that abortion is the right decision in some cases - but that it should be up to the individual to make that decision, not the government or the church or even the individual's own co-citizens.

Ireland's attitude towards sex, reproduction and women is only one of a long list of reasons why I will not be raising any future children of mine here.

MagicMarker

We need another referendum here but tbh I find it hard to believe the majority would vote in favour, not this generation anyway due to the presence of the R.C Church. I'd love to be proved wrong though.

minidazzler

TBH, I don't think the Abortion debate should be about those who don't want it. It should be about those who do.

It's fair enough for a woman not to want a baby, almost every other country has abortion, why not us?

The Referenda that have taken place mean nothing TBH, because feck all people actually vote. I don't have the stats and can't find them in a quick google search, but TBH I don't care about them.

People mght believe that the fetus has a right to life, and that's fair enough it's their perogative, but they won't be the one raising a child that they didn't want.

Those who say that it should be legal but only in cases where the mothers life is in Danger or because the fetus might be disabled make me sick TBH. I am an all or nothing type. (Well, the mothers life in Danger is a fine one IMO)

But those who say that if the fetus is gonna be born disabled or whatever it is really do make me sick, it is hard to take care of a disabled child but to say they should be exceptions to Abortion rules, fcuk that.

I think abortions should simply be legal to 4 months, by which time a large majority of women would realise they are pregnant. Stretched further if the fetus is a danger to the mother.

Why should a woman raise a child she never wanted? Because she MIGHT grow to love it? It's a major life changing thing.

Pro-choice I am.

CathyMoran

You cant justify an abortion because it will make the mothers life difficult if she has it, I imagine that not being born would be not great for the child. My husband is adopted and am greatful that his mum gave him a chance...I know that abortion is a hard issue, am not against it in limited circumstances but cirtainly not on demand which appears to be all the cases here.

minidazzler

CathyMoran wrote: »

You cant justify an abortion because it will make the mothers life difficult if she has it, I imagine that not being born would be not great for the child. My husband is adopted and am greatful that his mum gave him a chance...I know that abortion is a hard issue, am not against it in limited circumstances but cirtainly not on demand which appears to be all the cases here.

Hell yes you can. It's a fetus until it has taken it's first Breath IMO, I don't like the thought of late term abortion, but up to 4 months is fine.

If a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy at all, what right can people other than that person have to decide on what they do?

CathyMoran

minidazzler wrote: »

Hell yes you can. It's a fetus until it has taken it's first Breath IMO, I don't like the thought of late term abortion, but up to 4 months is fine.

If a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy at all, what right can people other than that person have to decide on what they do?

Have you seen an unborn child at 5 weeks...OK at that stage it is only a heart beat but by 12 weeks there are kicking arms and legs, a moving jaw and it is very much alive...

NameMe

RTE now making a big deal out of one of the three women being Lithuanian, it's as if they are saying

"how can a lithuanian woman have the right to challenge the right of unborn irish kids to exist???"

throw the immigration issue onto the already flaming abortion issue and we are looking at fireworks

*steps back and prays* (****e i've just added religion to the mix)