Ireland's abortion laws challenged in Europe

maryjane007

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

You say if you don't want a child you "prevent" it from happening.
How?
There is always a chance that it could happen even when using two methods of contraception correctly.

i also said that i will live with the consequences if i do become pregnant

minidazzler

maryjane007 wrote: »

i also said that i will live with the consequences if i do become pregnant

You have become pregnant, you have kids they were planned. It can be assumed that 1 more wouldn't kill you.

But what about OTHER women? People not in such a position, people who don't want to be.

MagicMarker

maryjane007 wrote: »

i also said that i will live with the consequences if i do become pregnant

Yes, but you've never gotten pregnant when you didn't want to. In your 30's this is easier to say than someone in their late teens/early 20's. You've never been pregnant when everything in your life says you shouldn't be.

It's all so simple, for you.

maryjane007

minidazzler wrote: »

a few weeks ago there was a girl (16 if I remember) Who was pregnant, her Boyfriend advised her to down a bottle of vodka to terminate.

Does this sound right to you anti-Abortion people out there?

no its horrible but surely this is down to education or lack of (and i mean sex ed)

bronte

maryjane007 wrote: »

i also said that i will live with the consequences if i do become pregnant

Okay, well you are extremely lucky that you're in a position to do so.
Not everyone is.

minidazzler

maryjane007 wrote: »

no its horrible but surely this is down to education or lack of (and i mean sex ed)

Yeah, it was, but now that girl is pregnant with no coping mexhanisms for it and she was too afraid to tell her parents.

She should have the option to terminate. That is how I feel about this.

Your views seem to come across as being based on the best situation. Mine are on the worst.

maryjane007

yes i know when you are young its completely different, i was young before and when i was younger i had friends who fell pregnant when they really didnt want to be, when their partners left them, and all sorts of other situations but do you know what they all coped, and would not change a thing this is something that can be seen from age. as i said im talking about average pregnancy, no sinister backgrounds.

and before someone asks if it were one of my children who became pregnant young or otherwise, it would be her choice, i would lose no respect or love for her, but it does not change the fact that i think its wrong

maryjane007

minidazzler wrote: »

Yeah, it was, but now that girl is pregnant with no coping mexhanisms for it and she was too afraid to tell her parents.

She should have the option to terminate. That is how I feel about this.

Your views seem to come across as being based on the best situation. Mine are on the worst.

but she does have the option to terminate. thousands of irish women do it every year.

LizT

maryjane007 wrote: »

and before someone asks if it were one of my children who became pregnant young or otherwise, it would be her choice, i would lose no respect or love for her, but it does not change the fact that i think its wrong

That's a bit of a contradiction in itself. You think it's wrong, yet if one of your daughters got pregnant and terminated it, you would lose no respect for her? That can't be true.


And if you can take that attitude with your family, why can't you apply it to others?

MagicMarker

maryjane007 wrote: »

yes i know when you are young its completely different, i was young before and when i was younger i had friends who fell pregnant when they really didnt want to be, when their partners left them, and all sorts of other situations but do you know what they all coped, and would not change a thing this is something that can be seen from age. as i said im talking about average pregnancy, no sinister backgrounds.

and before someone asks if it were one of my children who became pregnant young or otherwise, it would be her choice, i would lose no respect or love for her, but it does not change the fact that i think its wrong

Of course they are happy now, I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find someone with grown children who wished they were never born. This is besides the point, the fact is they never really had a choice in the first place(bar getting the ferry). Who's to say how their life would have panned out had they aborted?

minidazzler

maryjane007 wrote: »

but she does have the option to terminate. thousands of irish women do it every year.

She is an Irish Girl, 16 years old, not a woman by any stretch, how does she go about paying for such a thing. If it was here she would have some chance.

The fact is for some women, having a child simply doesn't suit when they fall pregnant. Can you give me a really good solid reason why you or anyone else on this Island should be able to tell her what she can and cannot do to her own body?

LizT

maryjane007 wrote: »

but she does have the option to terminate. thousands of irish women do it every year.

In fairness, if she's 16 years old, how is she going to
a) Get the money to go over to England
b) Go over to England without her family knowing

Thousands of irish women do it every year, but many girls don't. Instead they resort to tactics such as drinking heavily.
If abortion were available here, would she be having the same problem? I guess we'll never know, but it's an interesting thought.

MagicMarker

minidazzler wrote: »

She is an Irish Girl, 16 years old, not a woman by any stretch, how does she go about paying for such a thing. If it was here she would have some chance.

Excellent point.

Maryjane, if you had a 16 year old, would you pay for an abortion if that's what she wanted?

maryjane007

lizt wrote: »

That's a bit of a contradiction in itself. You think it's wrong, yet if one of your daughters got pregnant and terminated it, you would lose no respect for her? That can't be true.


And if you can take that attitude with your family, why can't you apply it to others?

i do i'd imagine there are probably friends of mine who have had them and they just dont tell people, its none of my business, and i would treat them no differently. im not a bible basher who goes around telling everyone the rights and wrongs of every decision they take, im talking about it here because thats what the discussion is about. just because i think something is wrong it doesnt mean i hate people who do it.

maryjane007

if finance were a problem abroad it would be a problem here too, as for travel can a 16 year old travel on her own? if so than flights are nearly free with ryanair and would they perform it on a 16 year old withour parental or guardians consent

LizT

maryjane007 wrote: »

i do i'd imagine there are probably friends of mine who have had them and they just dont tell people, its none of my business, and i would treat them no differently. im not a bible basher who goes around telling everyone the rights and wrongs of every decision they take, im talking about it here because thats what the discussion is about. just because i think something is wrong it doesnt mean i hate people who do it.

Well, to be honest, that's not the impression I'm getting. Maybe I'm reading into things too much though!

minidazzler

maryjane007 wrote: »

if finance were a problem abroad it would be a problem here too, as for travel can a 16 year old travel on her own? if so than flights are nearly free with ryanair and would they perform it on a 16 year old withour parental or guardians consent

In England she would not need Parental consent.

But that isn't even a valid point really. She should have that option over here.

You have said it wouldn't bother you to have one. Then Why not here?

LizT

I think we need to be clear about what this thread is about.

It's not about is abortion the right thing to do. It's about whether or not people should have the OPTION of aborting if they want to, without having to leave Ireland.

maryjane, you have said you would support your daughter if she had an abortion even though you don't agree with it.So you can obviously see it from a point of view that conflicts with you own. Surely then you see that Irish women have the right to get an abortion in their own country?

maryjane007

minidazzler wrote: »

In England she would not need Parental consent.

But that isn't even a valid point really. She should have that option over here.

You have said it wouldn't bother you to have one. Then Why not here?

i didnt say i would have one, but anyway why not here? ill tell you why but let me point out its JUST MY OPINION, which we are all entitled to. i think if abortion is easily acessible it will be used by people who may not otherwise have used the serivces.

before people jump down my throat, yes we are all educated and possibly some of us older so we wouldnt use it this way, but we cant speak for everyone, look at the 16 year old girl who was mentioned earlier, pressure from boyfriends and etc can make young girls/ women make decisions that that may suit at the time but regret is a awful burden my friend

LizT

maryjane007 wrote: »

but regret is a awful burden my friend

And so is being a mother at that age.

maryjane007

lizt wrote: »

maryjane, you have said you would support your daughter if she had an abortion even though you don't agree with it.So you can obviously see it from a point of view that conflicts with you own. Surely then you see that Irish women have the right to get an abortion in their own country?

answered above added to the fact that i think its wrong

LizT

Anyway, I think this could go on for hours.

We just don't accept each other's arguments. So I'm bowing out now.

MagicMarker

Maryjane would you mind answering my question?

maryjane007

lizt wrote: »

And so is being a mother at that age.

true but i dont know any women who regret it

maryjane007

MagicMarker wrote: »

Maryjane would you mind answering my question?

i answered on the last page copied and pasted


yes i know when you are young its completely different, i was young before and when i was younger i had friends who fell pregnant when they really didnt want to be, when their partners left them, and all sorts of other situations but do you know what they all coped, and would not change a thing this is something that can be seen from age. as i said im talking about average pregnancy, no sinister backgrounds.

minidazzler

maryjane007 wrote: »

i didnt say i would have one, but anyway why not here? ill tell you why but let me point out its JUST MY OPINION, which we are all entitled to. i think if abortion is easily acessible it will be used by people who may not otherwise have used the serivces.

before people jump down my throat, yes we are all educated and possibly some of us older so we wouldnt use it this way, but we cant speak for everyone, look at the 16 year old girl who was mentioned earlier, pressure from boyfriends and etc can make young girls/ women make decisions that that may suit at the time but regret is a awful burden my friend

Apologies about that, I meant you have no problem consorting with those who choose to terminate.

If your aguement against abortion clinic's is based on an opinion, may I ask how you formed this opinion.

TBH, I think you are very naive about the whole issue. I used to be against abortion until last year. Girl tells me she's pregnant, it's mine allegedly, she asks me her options. First out of my mouth was abortion, followed by every other option I could think of. (Which was alot TBH). She wasn't pregnant though Thank fcuk, or I would be a Dad now.

I know I don't want a child right now, so if a girl asked me her options I would still say Abortion first, but I would only suggest it, I would never try hard to convince someone to have one.

And TBH, people might regret having an abortion is a weak excuse to keep it illegal.

iguana

maryjane007 wrote: »

if finance were a problem abroad it would be a problem here too,

A resident girl/woman can have a NHS abortion in Britain, if it's gone past the 8 week stage and she needs a surgical procedure she may be put on a waiting list. A non UK resident will need to attend a private clinic which can be expensive.

If the abortions were available in Ireland there would probably be a system in place to deal with situations for teenagers. She would not need to attend a private clinic, she could go to her gp and go through state health care. It would not be nearly as expensive as going through a private clinic.

Additionally up to 8/9 weeks it's possible to have an abortion which is induced through tablets, this is cheaper. Past this time surgery is needed. Realistically you won't know you are pregnant until you are 4 weeks pregnant (2 weeks from conception). This gives 1 month to get to Britain/Amsterdam/etc for a medical abortion. This will not be very easy for a lot of people and will increase costs because the surgery costs more. If she could just go straight to a clinic her chances being able to use pills are higher.

MagicMarker

maryjane007 wrote: »

i answered on the last page copied and pasted


yes i know when you are young its completely different, i was young before and when i was younger i had friends who fell pregnant when they really didnt want to be, when their partners left them, and all sorts of other situations but do you know what they all coped, and would not change a thing this is something that can be seen from age. as i said im talking about average pregnancy, no sinister backgrounds.

This was posted before I asked the question, and it doesn't answer it.

If you had a 16 year old daughter who became pregnant and didn't want the baby, would you pay for them to have an abortion, if that's what they really wanted?

sam34

maryjane007 wrote: »

true but i dont know any women who regret it

i dont know many women who had unplanned pregnancies, but i know one woman who had, she now has an 11 year old child and regrets having become a mother.

it's nothing to do with the child personally, she is a happy, healthy, sweet, good kid.

but this woman never planned on having kids, she just got caught out, and didnt want to have an abortion.
11 years later, she still says she would rather not have had a kid.

and she was no naive 16 yr old when she got pregnant, she was a well educated 27 year old, with a permanent well paid job and her own house, so financially able to cope with a child, and also old enough to know how not to get pregnant (but thats a separate issue)

Dr Kamikazi

My point again hopefully I won't get censored this time, I'm using pretty flowers and kitten language here.

How to solve complex issues like abortion the Irish way

Don't offer abortion, let everyone travel to England to have it done, the claim the moral high ground!
Same as nuclear power really, we don't want it, we just buy it from the Brits on the sly.
Two of the greatest examples on how we deal with any issue here:
1: Pretend it doesn't exist, if we ignore it, it'll go away
2: When that doesn't work, export the problem, so we can
3: Get on our high horse and proclaim how much better we are because we have no abortions and nuclear power.
Then get really annoyed when people challenge the "logic" of this, or call it for what it is.
An Irish solution to an Irish problem.