The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread

Red Crow

nerd69 wrote: »

but what has eli done in the regular season to be considered elite your saying hes definitely elite and that cant be questioned because of about 6 games when hes had far more games that hes been average or just plain bad

Now there you go. You ask what has Eli done in the regular season? Even the mildest Cowboy fan will tell what Eli has done in the regular season. You're stating that he is good because of 6 games. That's a load of crap and in your opinion you think he can't be elite because he has had more average games. So if a QB starts of shaky he can't be elite? You're talking rubbish dude. There is no way you can qualify elite using those terms. How do you qualify Elite? This is a guy who is 6th in passing yards regular season. 1st in 4Q TDs. The guy is clutch as hell. He runs one of the most complicated NFL offences. Lead two come from behind drives in the 4Q of a SB. He has the best road playoff record of ALL TIME. There are plenty more. The guy is elite. I can argue this all day.

nerd69 wrote: »

theres professional analysts who feel the same
iv been watching the nfl for years and i am fairly educated on most matters nfl dont question that just because you disagree with me.

There are hundreds of professional NFl analysts. Lot's of people are going to feel the same. Doesn't make it right.

matthew8

Manning's a very very average QB in the regular season. If I wanted a QB to get me to the playoffs, Manning's the last guy I'd ask for.

Hulk Hands

Syferus wrote: »

You can't cap it, just because there's more more than an arbitrary number of elite players at a position isn't a reason to disqualify the ones you consider in the bottom of that pack. That's a punishment for operating in a golden era of QB play. It's like saying Joe Frazier wasn't a great boxer because he lost to Ali and Foreman twice.

Ok, I agree that this is a golden area for QB's. But I could probably pick 4 ahead of him in the last few era's, such as Brady, Peyton, Favre, McNair in the early 00's, and Elway, Marino, Favre and McNair in the 90's. If your counting Eli as elite then it will always be because you have a broad use of the term, as I think there were a few better than him during every era.

Eli Manning wrote: »

Now there you go. You ask what has Eli done in the regular season?

Whereas Eli earns major point scoring due to his Superbowl wins, should he not also lose big marks because of his failures to make the playoff's? Making the playoff's most years should be the staple of any elite QB.

Anything can happen once your in the playoff's, as they are one off games. A team can gain momentum, a previously invincible one can get caught cold. A PR can get injured and his replacement can fumble twice handing the opponents victory, or a usually sure handed receiver can drop a catch giving the opponents a chance to win. As shown this year, anything can happen in one off games. Getting your team to these games are the most important component in an elite QB. Eli's .500 record of making the playoff's isn't good enough to be termed elite imo

edit: forgot he made playoff's on 06, .500 is wrong

HigginsJ

God Eli really bothers alot of people doesnt he!!

I think the one thing we prob dont get the feel of over here is the whole NYC pressure thing. The New York franchises get massive scrutiny that we just dont see. It takes alot to be able to handle that pressue.

Added to that then the pressue that you happen to be the younger brother of one of the 2 best QB's of the last decade (and probably one of the all time greats)

The year after the Superbowl the Giants were playing great football and the Giants went 12-4, but unfortunately couldnt get it done against the eagles (esp. with Plax missing)

In the 7 seasons Eli has been starter the Giants have gone to the playoffs 5 times and won the superbowl twice. I'm not sure what more people want from their QB.

Red Crow

matthew8 wrote: »

Manning's a very very average QB in the regular season. If I wanted a QB to get me to the playoffs, Manning's the last guy I'd ask for.

Good man. :rolleyes:

matthew8

I think the one thing we prob dont get the feel of over here is the whole NYC pressure thing. The New York franchises get massive scrutiny that we just dont see. It takes alot to be able to handle that pressue.

Added to that then the pressue that you happen to be the younger brother of one of the 2 best QB's of the last decade (and probably one of the all time greats)

All QBs have to deal with pressure. Tony Romo has huge pressure put on him by not only the Dallas media but the national media.

In the 7 seasons Eli has been starter the Giants have gone to the playoffs 5 times and won the superbowl twice. I'm not sure what more people want from their QB.

What I'd like from a QB is that they don't constantly mess up in the regular season, like in his games against the Redskins and Seahawks. You can't give the QB all the credit. Manning didn't make those fantastic catches on the final drives of his superbowl wins. Manning didn't block Dallas' game tying field goal. Manning didn't force a safety in the superbowl.

matthew8

Eli Manning wrote: »

Good man. :rolleyes:

What's this supposed to mean?

Red Crow

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Syferus wrote: »

You can't cap it, just because there's more more than an arbitrary number of elite players at a position isn't a reason to disqualify the ones you consider in the bottom of that pack. That's a punishment for operating in a golden era of QB play. It's like saying Joe Frazier wasn't a great boxer because he lost to Ali and Foreman twice.

Ok, I agree that this is a golden area for QB's. But I could probably pick 4 ahead of him in the last few era's, such as Brady, Peyton, Favre, McNair in the early 00's, and Elway, Marino, Favre and McNair in the 90's. If your counting Eli as elite then it will always be because you have a broad use of the term, as I think there were a few better than him during every era.

Eli Manning wrote: »

Now there you go. You ask what has Eli done in the regular season?

Whereas Eli earns major point scoring due to his Superbowl wins, should he not also lose big marks because of his failures to make the playoff's? Making the playoff's most years should be the staple of any elite QB.

Anything can happen once your in the playoff's, as they are one off games. A team can gain momentum, a previously invincible one can get caught cold. A PR can get injured and his replacement can fumble twice handing the opponents victory, or a usually sure handed receiver can drop a catch giving the opponents a chance to win. As shown this year, anything can happen in one off games. Getting your team to these games are the most important component in an elite QB. Eli's .500 record of making the playoff's isn't good enough to be termed elite imo

edit: forgot he made playoff's on 06, .500 is wrong

You also cap elite to 4 players. There are some really meaningless arguments to why he is not elite. It's actually pathetic the way some people are trying to back up their argument.

What people have against him is beyond me. The guy is Elite. End of.

HigginsJ

matthew8 wrote: »

God Eli really bothers alot of people doesnt he!!


All QBs have to deal with pressure. Tony Romo has huge pressure put on him by not only the Dallas media but the national media.



What I'd like from a QB is that they don't constantly mess up in the regular season, like in his games against the Redskins and Seahawks. You can't give the QB all the credit. Manning didn't make those fantastic catches on the final drives of his superbowl wins. Manning didn't block Dallas' game tying field goal. Manning didn't force a safety in the superbowl.

Sigh.

So what about Eli pulling the Giants back from 12 points down against the Cowgirls with 5 minutes to go (not being helped by manningham dropping an open td pass) that allowed the wonderful JPP do his thing.

Manning didnt force a safety in the SB your right. But he did throw that pass to the only spot on the field where Manningham could catch it. He playoff stats this year was 1219 yards, 9tds, 1 int, and a 103.3 passer rating.

As for the messing up twice against the Redskins...... full moon maybe!!

matthew8

Eli Manning wrote: »

You also cap elite to 4 players. There are some really meaningless arguments to why he is not elite. It's actually pathetic the way some people are trying to back up their argument.

What people have against him is beyond me. The guy is Elite. End of.

What makes him elite? I know passer ratings aren't the best metric, but an 82 career passer rating is not elite. Elite QBs shouldn't mess up as often as Eli. He was very lucky to make the playoffs.

matthew8

Sigh.

So what about Eli pulling the Giants back from 12 points down against the Cowgirls with 5 minutes to go (not being helped by manningham dropping an open td pass) that allowed the wonderful JPP do his thing.

You also have to give credit to the defense for forcing a three and out when a first down would have all but won the game.

Manning didnt force a safety in the SB your right. But he did throw that pass to the only spot on the field where Manningham could catch it. He playoff stats this year was 1219 yards, 9tds, 1 int, and a 103.3 passer rating.

And he wouldn't have beaten the 49ers if the PR didn't fumble twice.

As for the messing up twice against the Redskins...... full moon maybe!!

Messing up as many times as Manning does is not elite.

HigginsJ

matthew8 wrote: »

You also have to give credit to the defense for forcing a three and out when a first down would have all but won the game.

And he wouldn't have beaten the 49ers if the PR didn't fumble twice.

Messing up as many times as Manning does is not elite.

The D forced nothing it was the simple fact that the defense blew a coverage and Romo missed a wide open Miles Austin. Dont mke up arguments to suit. Romo and Austin had a wide open shot to win the game and didnt take it. Eli took his oppurtunity.

matthew8

HigginsJ wrote: »

The D forced nothing it was the simple fact that the defense blew a coverage and Romo missed a wide open Miles Austin. Dont mke up arguments to suit. Romo and Austin had a wide open shot to win the game and didnt take it. Eli took his oppurtunity.

This is one eyed BS. What about the other 2 plays?

nerd69

eil is good in the playoffs but name one other elite qb who was never considered for a regular season mvp

nerd69

btw im not sayin he wont become elite im just saying hes not now

HigginsJ

matthew8 wrote: »

This is one eyed BS. What about the other 2 plays?

What other 2 plays. 1st and 2nd down? Cowboys got 3 yards. So our D gets all the credit for not giving up 1st down on 2 plays but then blowing a coverage.

I dont see how this is "one eyed BS" our D was great at times this year but this is a terrible example of how our D "held" the Cowgirls. You need a better example than this i'm afraid

HigginsJ

nerd69 wrote: »

eil is good in the playoffs but name one other elite qb who was never considered for a regular season mvp

Thats a fair enough point.

And honestly i've only been closely following American football for about 7 years now so I couldnt even hazard a guess.

Is regular season MVP all that important. Would Brees/Rodgers (whichever one got it this year) swap his MVP award for another superbowl ring this year?

Eli has 2 superbowl MVP's to go with his 2 rings.

In the 8 years Eli has been in the NFl

Roethlisberger 2 rings
Eli Manning 2 rings
Peyton Manning 1 ring
Tom Brady 1 ring
Aaron Rodgers 1 ring
Drew Brees 1 ring


Exalted company i think everyone can agree.

matthew8

HigginsJ wrote: »

Thats a fair enough point.

And honestly i've only been closely following American football for about 7 years now so I couldnt even hazard a guess.

Is regular season MVP all that important. Would Brees/Rodgers (whichever one got it this year) swap his MVP award for another superbowl ring this year?

Eli has 2 superbowl MVP's to go with his 2 rings.

In the 8 years Eli has been in the NFl

Roethlisberger 2 rings
Eli Manning 2 rings
Peyton Manning 1 ring
Tom Brady 1 ring
Aaron Rodgers 1 ring
Drew Brees 1 ring


Exalted company i think everyone can agree.

They would probably swap the MVP award for a ring, but MVP is more indicative of how good an individual player is. The reason I don't consider Eli elite is the same reason I don't consider Big Ben elite.

HigginsJ wrote: »

What other 2 plays. 1st and 2nd down? Cowboys got 3 yards. So our D gets all the credit for not giving up 1st down on 2 plays but then blowing a coverage.

I dont see how this is "one eyed BS" our D was great at times this year but this is a terrible example of how our D "held" the Cowgirls. You need a better example than this i'm afraid

You've got to give the defense credit for forcing them to the air at the very least.

HigginsJ

matthew8 wrote: »

They would probably swap the MVP award for a ring, but MVP is more indicative of how good an individual player is. The reason I don't consider Eli elite is the same reason I don't consider Big Ben elite.

You've got to give the defense credit for forcing them to the air at the very least.

Look that's fair enough your entitled to your opinion on the elite QB's. I'd have Ben and Eli as both being elite but each to their own.

I'm sorry but our defense blew it. Yes you get a certain amount of credit for forcing them to throw it on 3rd down but it was horrible. Austin was wide open. Thank god it was Romo at QB and not someones grandmother or we'd have been in real trouble!!

Hulk Hands

Again it's all coming down to how broad your use of the term is. I can't have him as an elite QB at the moment because I think Brees, Brady, Peyton and Rodgers are comfortably better than him. If he's elite, then what does that make them? Super-elite??

HigginsJ

What would Eli have to do for you to consider him elite?

I'm guessing a 3rd/4th ring wouldn't do it for you.

Hulk Hands

Be as ridiculously good, consistent and efficient as any of the above mentioned are every year

HigginsJ

He was excellent all season long on a badly flawed football team. No running game, patchwork o-line, suspect linebackers, dodgy secondary, injuries to key players.

You know of our 9 wins this year 6 were 4th quarter come-backs. He now holds the record for most 4th quarter touchdowns (although Unitas's of 14 was in 12 game season tbf)

He was 4th in the league in ypc, he was 4th in the league in 20yard+ plays, he led the league in 40yard+ plays.

I'm not going to change your mind. But just want to give you a few area's why Giants fans (and others) think Eli is one of the best.

nerd69

i would just like to emphasize im not sayin hes a bad player hes a very good player hes just not elite.
i would be very slow to give any qb that title one of the best in the league yes but elite no.
and of coarse this is all just opinions:)

matthew8

The elite QBs bring their teams to the playoffs every year. A lot of the arguments made for Eli can be made for Matthew Stafford too, but is he elite? No.

JaMarcus Hustle

You can call Eli Manning elite, it all depends on your definition of the word, but he's simply not on the same level as Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Peyton (pre-injury, no idea what he's like now).

Until Eli regularly takes games by the scruff of the neck, dominates regular seasons, puts himself in MVP consideration and makes his team favourites for games simply because of his presence, he won't be regarded in the same bracket as the above. For me, I wouldn't put titles on ability tiers, but I would say that he is probably on a par with Ben Roethlisberger overall, but obviously in better current form. I'd put both of them on their own tier just behind the big four, but ahead of the likes of Rivers, Cutler etc. who would be in the next bracket. That's just my opinion, and none of that is set in stone of course.

Syferus

matthew8 wrote: »

The elite QBs bring their teams to the playoffs every year. A lot of the arguments made for Eli can be made for Matthew Stafford too, but is he elite? No.

5/7 play-off appearances and two Superbowls is exceptional. And he should have never been thrown in that first season anyways, Warner was doing a fine job before he got yanked.

People can make all the cases against it they want but Eli has more Bowls than Brees or Rodgers and has come through more when it counts than his brother. Rodgers, Brees and big bro are stats machines but that's not the total measure of any player.

Manning has always been the key to the Giants offense, and when is the last time you remember bringing in a big weapon for him? They've built pieces slowly around him from within. After the first Superbowl the Giants looked fantastic until Plax decided New York was the OK Coral and deflated the entire season.

This question was answered empathetically last season, it's time to move on to something new.

nerd69

Syferus wrote: »

5/7 play-off appearances and two Superbowls is exceptional. And he should have never been thrown in that first season anyways, Warner was doing a fine job before he got yanked.

People can make all the cases against it they want but Eli has more Bowls than Brees or Rodgers and has come through more when it counts than his brother. Rodgers, Brees and big bro are stats machines but that's not the total measure of any player.

Manning has always been the key to the Giants offense, and when is the last time you remember bringing in a big weapon for him? They've built pieces slowly around him from within. After the first Superbowl the Giants looked fantastic until Plax decided New York was the OK Coral and deflated the entire season.

This question was answered empathetically last season, it's time to move on to something new.

if superbowls are the be all and end all the following players are useless having never won one.
ed reed
ladanian tomlinson
terrell owens
tony gonzales
champ bailey
dick butkus
earl cambell
eric dickerson
bruce mathews
warren moon
john randel
barry sanders
gayle sayers
oj simpson
bruce smith
fran tarkinton
derrick thomas

superbowls are nice but peyton has 4 mvps and any other elite or hof (because this is the standard of company hes allegedly keeping) qb has been an mvp eli has not even been considered for an mvp therefore its an insult to the peytons and bradys to mention his name on the same level.

if your basing a players standard on superbowls won trent dilfer is as good as peyton.

and if your argument is that eli led his team to the superbowl dilfer didnt. then elis team dragged him to the playoffs just like dilfer.

im not sayin hes as bad as dilfer in fact ive said numerous times elis a very good player but hes not as good as the marinos the bradys the peytons the montanas etc

Syferus

It's not just about Superbowls, it's about making the pass on third and long, setting your team up for a field goal with seconds left. He does that better than any QB in the league apart from perhaps Brady, the other three have had trouble getting over the hump consistently in the play-offs particularly.

Eli isn't just clutch, he's racked up huge yardage and very good QB ratings, particularly these past two seasons. I'd prefer a QB who can do that at maybe a less impressive level than another QB when it means you know nine times out of ten he'll deliver when you need him to.

It's for the same reasons I'd pick Big Ben over Peyton as my QB, especially now, even removed from the neck issues.

JaMarcus Hustle

Believe me Syferus, if you're arguing that you'd rather pick Big Ben and Eli Manning over Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and Peyton Manning, nobody is going to fight you for them. The vast majority of people would prefer your leftovers.

Being honest, reading you saying you'd pick Ben Roethlisberger over Peyton Manning even before his neck injury is among the most absurd thing I've ever read on here. And I've defended JaMarcus Russell.