Is it Now?

donothoponpop

Tue evening 10k tempo

This was a tempo by effort, I've no idea of the time. Headtorch run up and around my old faithful Hillbrook loop, which I haven't done in a while (this time last year I slipped on ice doing it, and cracked a rib). Thankfully no ice tonight, although the temperature was way down on what it has been. I felt good running this, a lot stronger than of late. All the hills were given a bit of wellie, and I would coast to catch my breath on the top of each, before upping the pace again. Speaking of breath, swimming seems to have done wonders for my lungs. Gasping great gobfuls with gusto, I was able to keep up the effort for a lot longer than I would have expected. A good run, I'll start timing these loops from now on to get an idea of progress.

donothoponpop

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

/delete Donothoponpop.

PositiveNegativ wrote: »

Goodbye.

Slogger Jogger wrote: »

@pn: run on Annagh again soon?
@dp: we can leave you at the puddle on the ridge for continuous lengths? Are you still RDing Annagh or is there a Tri event that day?

RayCun wrote: »

Too old, slow, and wine-sozzled to be a runner anymore? :pac:

menoscemo wrote: »

Et tu Brute?

It's worth commenting on these comments (even though I know they're meant light-hearted;)).
I never read any on the Tri stuff here, for years. No interest. Could only see any crossover in the forum as a historical anachronism. Thought from a glance that the SBR Challenge was over-fussy and complicated.

But, having failed in most races for the past few years, and not gotten much return from my (relative high milage and time) training investment, I have to say that complementing running with swims and bikes, makes a lot of sense. Loads of the hillrunners who win races are bikers and multisporters too. I've never felt so psyched in training as I have done over the past couple of weeks. The SBR Challenge is hugely entertaining once you sign in to it, and it's more dynamic and useful as a training aid than its running equivilent.

There's an awful lot that runners on the forum could learn from the Tri guys, mainly because Tri generally operates at a higher training level. I only want to make the point high milage suits many, but its not for everyone. My dalliance with multisport is only a couple of weeks old, but already I'm seeing benefits in training. The proof will be in the pudding of my future race times alright, but I'd say that a lot of the runners here might see their times improve by trying some swimming and cycling too. I'd just hate if they missed seeing the woods for the trees, as I have done for the past few years.

(Like I say, I know those sort of comments are made in jest, apologies if I come over all preachy. Normal jackassery service will be resumed soon:))

RacoonQueen

Ignore that crap. He's just copying me. :cool:

donothoponpop

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Ignore that crap. He's just copying me. :cool:

donothoponpop wrote: »

I can't pretend high milage and daily pounding is going to suit me anymore. So I'm going to take a leaf out of one of the best posters here (that's you Dory;)), and follow a three or four key days a week running, the other days will consist of low-impact activity such as swimming or biking.

shotgunmcos

Swimming and biking are great low impact compliments to running even if its not for triathlon. Swimming especially. Apart from niggles your can sort with a foam roller, I haven't had a running related injury to write home about , beside busting my knee running down a hill, since I took up running 4 years ago. Learning to swim particularly is one of the best things I've ever done. It adds a new dimension to holidays for me and swimming in the sea and lakes during the summer is food for the soul. I love running but I'm just not suited to high mileage (at my weight). I put down 48 hours of training last month and most of it was decent quality. That amount of time into running alone would leave me buckled and hating it. I also just like variety

RayCun

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I put down 48 hours of training last month and most of it was decent quality. That amount of time into running alone would leave me buckled and hating it.

Slagging aside, this is why triathlon doesn't really attract me.
I run 7/8 hours a week, call it 10 max if you include getting to and from races. My training limitation is not physical - I could add another couple of hours running easily enough, I think - but finding the time. If I was at the point where I couldn't add to my running without risking injury, then I might look into cycling or swimming, but they are both time and money-sinks. Cycling takes longer for the same effort, and swimming takes less time but needs more scheduling (and there's travel time to the pool to consider). Plus then the cost of the bike and gear, and the cost of swimming lessons (which I would desperately need). Running is cheap and easy.

shotgunmcos

I agree that cycling is a money sink and a drain on time for the same effort, most of it is a waste of money IMO. However If I add up everything I've spent on swimming alone from the last 3 years, apart from gym membership, I'd probably just scrape enough to buy a garmin or upgrade a couple of pairs of running shoes.

I find that I see the same faces in the 'teaching lane' winter after winter but don't see them practicing up and down the pool by themselves. Waste of money IMO

The misconception that most triathletes have is that cnstant swim lessons and bling gear will make them faster :rolleyes:

donothoponpop

RayCun wrote: »

Slagging aside, this is why triathlon doesn't really attract me.
I run 7/8 hours a week, call it 10 max if you include getting to and from races. My training limitation is not physical - I could add another couple of hours running easily enough, I think - but finding the time. If I was at the point where I couldn't add to my running without risking injury, then I might look into cycling or swimming, but they are both time and money-sinks. Cycling takes longer for the same effort, and swimming takes less time but needs more scheduling (and there's travel time to the pool to consider). Plus then the cost of the bike and gear, and the cost of swimming lessons (which I would desperately need). Running is cheap and easy.

Yeah but Shotgun is making two points, the first of which is relevant to runners complementing their training (especially so for heavier runners who suffer stress injuries, like me). Swimming and biking are fantastic complements, and may well aid a primary running goal. I can think of a few faster runners around here who are at the pointy end, and get there through running hard, and training bike/swim not quite so hard. Fair enough, there's plenty making perfectly acceptable gains through sheer high milage; but it doesn't work for everyone.

Whether you enjoy this multisporting enough to sign up for Tri is a separate issue (although in doing the training I can see the appeal). MCOS trains 48 hours against your 30-ish Ray, but he's competing at a higher level. I'm training more hours per week than I was before, but I look forward to the variety, and I feel less stress/aches on my body.

On the cost issue... yes its more expensive, but two unneeded visits to the physio will pay for a wetsuit, and a decent bike should last a long time. (Besides, I don't want to calculate how much I've spent on shoes over the past few years high milage;)). The main reason I'm doing it is to stay fit and injury free, so far it seems to be working.

nerraw1111

Swimming is a great addition to my training. I feel much stronger in the upper body which I think in turns help my running. I might be imagining it but swimming seems to have improved my breathing on tough runs. Less out of breath.

And cycling great improves your ability to run hard on climbs.

Re the money aspect. I bought a bike last April and I think the only thing I bought for it since are two gatorskin tyres. It's cheap enough. That said, you can throw mountains of cash on it to get lovely carbon bikes and wheels etc. Even the winter gear. I'm using the same winter running gear on the bike without any problems.

And that's not to mention the sheer mental pleasure you get from spinning through the hills on a clear day.

I think cycling is essential if you run.

RayCun

I'm sure they're useful complements, but I don't think I've reached the point of diminishing returns yet with running alone (though dp has, because of injury).
(edited to add - I don't do any stretching or core work either, which I should probably add before another sport)

I got into enough trouble last year with 2-3 hour marathon training runs, I don't like to think what would happen if I suggested going for 5 hour 'spins' :pac:

donothoponpop

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Swimming is a great addition to my training. I feel much stronger in the upper body which I think in turns help my running. I might be imagining it but swimming seems to have improved my breathing on tough runs. Less out of breath.

+1, this benefit is immediately apparent.

RayCun wrote: »

I'm sure they're useful complements, but I don't think I've reached the point of diminishing returns yet with running alone (though dp has, because of injury).

That's it in a nutshell, loads of miles might suit the skinny malinky's to take down their times alright, but if you tend towards stress injuries, complemented training will help. I'd just like to see more people trying stress free training- there's a bit of a concensus on the forum you have to run more miles if you want to run faster, and I believe a lot of runners would get more benefit by training smarter and incorporating non-impact sports into their routines.

Horses for courses, though. My thesis would be proven stronger if when my race times start coming down.

dna_leri

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's an awful lot that runners on the forum could learn from the Tri guys, mainly because Tri generally operates at a higher training level. I only want to make the point high milage suits many, but its not for everyone. My dalliance with multisport is only a couple of weeks old, but already I'm seeing benefits in training. The proof will be in the pudding of my future race times alright, but I'd say that a lot of the runners here might see their times improve by trying some swimming and cycling too. I'd just hate if they missed seeing the woods for the trees, as I have done for the past few years.

I am with Raycun in general on this, although again I have not maxed out on my running training and am time-limited rather than over-trained. I get why it works for some, especially if you are struggling to recover from injury. The only time I did cycling training was when I was recovering from a serious injury and the effort-reward ratio would be too much for my swimming ability.

But I have to question the bold comment above. For runners, I do not think tri operates at a higher training level when it is being used to supplement running - its usually as a substitute for easy/recovery days. For people at the pointy end, well that's a whole different debate which will come down to your definition of "higher training level" - more hours, probably; more intensity, doubtful. For the average tri-athlete, I do not think they are on a higher training level than the average runner, but they sure think they are, otherwise what's the point of all that shiny gear.

RayCun

I could see that debate getting bogged down in the definition of 'average' - should you compare the average triathlete to the average club runner, or to the median finisher in Great Ireland Run/DCM?

donothoponpop

dna_leri wrote: »

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's an awful lot that runners on the forum could learn from the Tri guys, mainly because Tri generally operates at a higher training level.

But I have to question the bold comment above.

You're highlighting a part of my sentence out of context. What I wrote is:

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's an awful lot that runners on the forum could learn from the Tri guys, mainly because Tri generally operates at a higher training level.

There's a lot of newbie runners who join this forum as a means to lose weight/get fit, etc. The usual flowchart see's them getting fit, being encouraged to join a generic 10k program, then being encouraged to join a generic marathon program, then to increase their milage in order to decrease their marathon time. Anyone who joins to get fit isn't encouraged to {get fit, then run 800's on track, then increase intensity of training to bring 800m times down}. You get the point I'm making: the focus of the forum is to produce faster distance road runners. Nothing wrong with that per se (RR is a mass participation sport), but people doing Tri on this forum by and large have been through the get fit phase already, before discovering they might have a talent for Tri. And since they don't include such a large % of newbie/keep fit as the RR's do, Tri on this forum operates at a higher training level. The highest performing individuals on the forum have historically been road runners, but I'm only comparing the groups, not the individuals.

Dory Dory

dna_leri wrote: »

I am with Raycun in general on this, although again I have not maxed out on my running training and am time-limited rather than over-trained. I get why it works for some, especially if you are struggling to recover from injury. The only time I did cycling training was when I was recovering from a serious injury and the effort-reward ratio would be too much for my swimming ability.

But I have to question the bold comment above. For runners, I do not think tri operates at a higher training level when it is being used to supplement running - its usually as a substitute for easy/recovery days. For people at the pointy end, well that's a whole different debate which will come down to your definition of "higher training level" - more hours, probably; more intensity, doubtful. For the average tri-athlete, I do not think they are on a higher training level than the average runner, but they sure think they are, otherwise what's the point of all that shiny gear.

Seems like I've come upon a tri-testimonial thread here....and lord knows I can't resist a good testimonial thread....

Common sense tells us that what works for one person may not work for another. Factors such as ability, time, desire, goals, age, etc all contribute to finding that right mix to create a successful training program for a particular person. Tri training won't be for everyone...and there is probably no uniformity to the success of tri training for those who choose to use it.

With that being said, I can only tell you from my personal experience that having the ability to supplement my concussive activity (running) with non-concussive activities (swimming and cycling) has been a lifesaver to my knees and body as a whole. Perhaps when I was in my twenties (or thirties), this would not have been an issue - but it's where I am in life right now. Also, because I am spreading the workload over different areas of my body, I have found without a doubt that I am able to up the intensity of each training session. And, there is no question that for me each discipline is complimenting and benefitting the others. For the month of January, I was able to log in over 200 miles of running without even a wince...plus more cycling than I've ever done in a month's time (no doubt cycling has benefitted my running the most). I am injury free and as strong as I have been in decades...so I can only say that for me in my own situation, utilizing all three disciplines has allowed me to train more hours, and it has allowed me to train more hours at a higher level of intensity than I ever could if I was running alone. But again, it's not for everyone, and thank goodness for that! The water is already too darned crowded with too many wetsuit wearing crazies clawing and scratching as it is!

dna_leri

donothoponpop wrote: »

You're highlighting a part of my sentence out of context. .

Ah now, in fairness I did quote the whole paragraph but that bit did jump out.

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's a lot of newbie runners who join this forum as a means to lose weight/get fit, etc. The usual flowchart see's them getting fit, being encouraged to join a generic 10k program, then being encouraged to join a generic marathon program, then to increase their milage in order to decrease their marathon time. Anyone who joins to get fit isn't encouraged to {get fit, then run 800's on track, then increase intensity of training to bring 800m times down}. You get the point I'm making: the focus of the forum is to produce faster distance road runners. Nothing wrong with that per se (RR is a mass participation sport), but people doing Tri on this forum by and large have been through the get fit phase already, before discovering they might have a talent for Tri. And since they don't include such a large % of newbie/keep fit as the RR's do, Tri on this forum operates at a higher training level. The highest performing individuals on the forum have historically been road runners, but I'm only comparing the groups, not the individuals.

I get the point you are making and I'm 100% with you on the generic path from couch-2-5K to DCM but IMHO there are also a lot of some people here (and in the real world) who see the next step as "I've done a marathon (or a mini one) - I should try-a-tri next". Maybe there are more in real life than on this forum.

Of course we can't compare training levels and shure as long as we all do our best isn't that the main thing.;) Good luck with your try-a-tri, hope you regain full fitness soon and come back to the true path.

dna_leri

Dory Dory wrote: »

With that being said, I can only tell you from my personal experience that having the ability to supplement my concussive activity (running) with non-concussive activities (swimming and cycling) has been a lifesaver to my knees and body as a whole.

Not for the first time on this thread I have had to consult my dictionary.

con·cus·sion (kn-kshn)
n. 1. A violent jarring; a shock. See Synonyms at collision.
2. An injury to an organ, especially the brain, produced by a violent blow and followed by a temporary or prolonged loss of function.

con·cussive (-ksv) adj.


I presume it more the former than the latter but violent jarring, ouch, try grass.:)

Actually the latter is probably a better description if injury to limbs are involved.

donothoponpop

dna_leri wrote: »

Ah now, in fairness I did quote the whole paragraph but that bit did jump out.



I get the point you are making and I'm 100% with you on the generic path from couch-2-5K to DCM but IMHO there are also a lot of some people here (and in the real world) who see the next step as "I've done a marathon (or a mini one) - I should try-a-tri next". Maybe there are more in real life than on this forum.

Of course we can't compare training levels and shure as long as we all do our best isn't that the main thing.;) Good luck with your try-a-tri, hope you regain full fitness soon and come back to the true path.

Lol I'd say we're in broad agreement and just arguing semantics all right! The "achievement" path can be {10k-marathon-marathon-marathon-"feck I'll never get under 3 hours"- Tri} all right.:D

My Try-A-Tri is incidental- I stay down in Valentia quite a bit, so would like to tick the box that says I've done a sports event that the place is becoming famous for. Most of my open water swimming has been done down there, and at some stage anyone swimming there a bit wonders if they could swim from the mainland to the island. Figure I may as well do an uphill run after (just a pity there's a 20k cycle in between;)).

Anyway, the main goal is to target a sub 5 mile, and bring down the 5k and 10k times. If I can get on the track to try a few events, so much the better. The only way I'll be able to do it is by non-impact training as much as I can. The swimming has already helped my weight, upper body, and breathing, and I'd have done a cycle today but for a broken valve. Knee is quite stiff after last nights road tempo.

RayCun

What's your current mile time?

donothoponpop

RayCun wrote: »

What's your current mile time?

I ran a Goal mile on Xmas day last, was sure I heard the timekeeper call 5:31, but beepBeep kindly showed me the published results, so that even though my Garmin says I did it in 5:34 (obviously the course was long), results say 5:41.

shotgunmcos

dna_leri wrote: »

.;) Good luck with your try-a-tri, hope you regain full fitness soon and come back to the true path.

Its not a try-a-tri... its a national series sprint distance event and also the national sprint triathlon championships. It will be a deep field with most of the top triathletes in the country competing...

Dory Dory

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Its not a try-a-tri... its a national series sprint distance event and also the national sprint triathlon championships. It will be a deep field with most of the top triathletes in the country competing...

Nothing sexier than a man with reckless abandon.

donothoponpop

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Its not a try-a-tri... its a national series sprint distance event and also the national sprint triathlon championships. It will be a deep field with most of the top triathletes in the country competing...

...and at least one lad on a mountain bike.:)

Wed 1.75km swim

My knee was hurting today, very stiff and sore after last nights road run. I took it for a paddle tonight, and guess what? No more pain, full flexibility, feels as good as new.

Having said all that, I was a little tired getting in the pool, so this was just a "time on your feet fins" sort of evening. I started off pushing the pace ever so slightly, figured I would do a km if I felt good, stop if I didn't. Soreness in my arms started creeping in early enough, so I did 250m in 4:22, and called it done. I'd say this should be my fresh "cruising" pace, so I should be able to get the km down to 17:30 or better, soon.

Tried a 50m sprint to test my time from yesterdays (:eek:just checked, it seems like days ago) swim. Form was good, breathing every 7 strokes, and got a great turn (albeit an open turn), kept the effort up (down to breathing on 4 now), came in high 38 secs. Delighted, but it was a real effort. I need to be able to do 4 or 5 of these in a row. Tried another, but was wrecked, hit the 25m in 19 secs and quit. Tried it again; same story, 19 sec 25m and quit.

That tiredness set the tone for the rest of the swim, I made up 1000m total, and just kept doing bits of different strokes, different speeds. My calf and plantar were cramping when I put in a burst, so with an eye on that, I just finished it to make 1.75km total.

donothoponpop

Dory Dory wrote: »

Nothing sexier than a man with reckless abandon.

I was puzzled: who is the sexy referent? Me, or MCOS? Then I tried on my Trisuit and checked out the mirror.

Its MCOS;)

Dory Dory

donothoponpop wrote: »

...and at least one lad on a mountain bike.:)

Wed 1.75km swim

My knee was hurting today, very stiff and sore after last nights road run. I took it for a paddle tonight, and guess what? No more pain, full flexibility, feels as good as new.

Having said all that, I was a little tired getting in the pool, so this was just a "time on your feet fins" sort of evening. I started off pushing the pace ever so slightly, figured I would do a km if I felt good, stop if I didn't. Soreness in my arms started creeping in early enough, so I did 250m in 4:22, and called it done. I'd say this should be my fresh "cruising" pace, so I should be able to get the km down to 17:30 or better, soon.

Tried a 50m sprint to test my time from yesterdays (:eek:just checked, it seems like days ago) swim. Form was good, breathing every 7 strokes, and got a great turn (albeit an open turn), kept the effort up (down to breathing on 4 now), came in high 38 secs. Delighted, but it was a real effort. I need to be able to do 4 or 5 of these in a row. Tried another, but was wrecked, hit the 25m in 19 secs and quit. Tried it again; same story, 19 sec 25m and quit.

That tiredness set the tone for the rest of the swim, I made up 1000m total, and just kept doing bits of different strokes, different speeds. My calf and plantar were cramping when I put in a burst, so with an eye on that, I just finished it to make 1.75km total.

Okay....this swimming is way too easy for you. What I want you to consider doing at some point (after you are totally comfortable with your swimming form) is try swimming with a cotton t-shirt on. Once my pool is open I basically swim in a t-shirt almost every session - it creates drag and makes me work harder - more bang for my buck. It will fatigue you quicker (well, maybe not you Mr. Torpedo Man) so watch that you don't lose your proper form. Endurance swimming is all upper body, and it will take more upper body to muscle through with a shirt on. Plus, after you've acclimated to swimming in a shirt, you will be amazed at the wonderfully fast (and high in the water) feeling you get when you strip that baby off and take to the seas!

donothoponpop wrote: »

I was puzzled: who is the sexy referent? Me, or MCOS? Then I tried on my Trisuit and checked out the mirror.

Its MCOS;)

Reckless and coy. Bonus!!

donothoponpop

Dory Dory wrote: »

What I want you to consider doing at some point (after you are totally comfortable with your swimming form) is try swimming with a cotton t-shirt on.

That's a great idea (akin to swimming uphill, right:D), I'll ask at the pool if their 'elf and safety rules don't preclude it. I tried a few lengths tonight letting my legs go dead, so I had to really work at moving forward with the arms, it was bloody tough! Fun though to try a few different things. I saw on someones log they tie their legs together with a band, to work the arms.

Dory Dory

donothoponpop wrote: »

That's a great idea (akin to swimming uphill, right:D), I'll ask at the pool if their 'elf and safety rules don't preclude it. I tried a few lengths tonight letting my legs go dead, so I had to really work at moving forward with the arms, it was bloody tough! Fun though to try a few different things. I saw on someones log they tie their legs together with a band, to work the arms.

See if the pool has pull buoys for you to use. I'm not a big fan of banding legs together, but I love my pull buoy. They're not very expensive if your pool does not provide them for you.

Dory Dory

Oh...and the shirt....obviously there will be a better chance for the pool to agree if it's white.....and you don't want it to be too loose. The one I wear is form fitting.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

donothoponpop wrote: »

Tried a 50m sprint to test my time from yesterdays (:eek:just checked, it seems like days ago) swim. Form was good, breathing every 7 strokes, and got a great turn (albeit an open turn), kept the effort up (down to breathing on 4 now), came in high 38 secs

I officially hate you now Dpop:rolleyes: around 300kms swam in the pool since i started (a lot of junk kms) and i only have my 50 time down to 41secs.
Seems you are enjoying the variety and benefits that swimming and biking brings not to mention the running benefits you will no doubt see from it.

Oryx

I hate you too. I'm swimming two years and your times are still just a way off dream.

*sulks*