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Retr0gamer wrote: »Actually it is true or perhaps not entirely
It's not, they do share code, but anything present in Final Burn that relates to 3d processing & effects is stripped & the more accurate coding is put in place - hence the difference in speed.Retr0gamer wrote:well it was true when it was first implemented it might have changed or they are using a new emulation engine. When Neo Geo emulation as well as CPS2 emulation were cracked by NeoRageX and Final Burn respectively
CPS2 was fist hacked by CPS2Shock, with hardware hacks. They obtained the info necessary to create XOR tables to decrypt the games. The encryption was fulley reversed years later by Nicola & another chap, both member of MameDev at the time
Retr0gamer wrote:Mame implemented emulation of these machines a few weeks afterwards by implementing the code of these two emulators.
Wrong
Retr0gamer wrote:This also happened with Model 1 emulation although I forget which emulator they got the source code from and I remember people laughing at it since the original emulator got about 5 FPS at most from the most advanced PC at the time while being a slideshow on mame when it even ran so seemed a bit pointless.
I think it was either modeller or nebula. They were laughing? Lol, Mame's emulation code is far more accurate (at the risk of repeating myself), as it doesn't involve hardware that wasn't present in the cab. Accuracy & playability are two very seperate goals, MAME has one, the other emu's have the other.Retr0gamer wrote:The code that mame assimilates is all open source meaning the mame team is free to use it as long as they don't charge for mame and credit the authors.
Correct, it's not a straight code dump though if they don't discover it first. It's cleaned up & ran without the help of gfx cards (at the risk of repeating myself again) for accuracy, not playability.Retr0gamer wrote:Also Final Burn alpha is an emulator emulating 2D sprite based machines so has no support for GFX cards unless you mean the filtering options which I'm almost sure are CPU based, but I'm nitpicking at you there :P
Yep, they all add to the workload, more than you'd expect. If they were simply cpu based they'd be integrated into cpu's today. They're notRetr0gamer wrote:Now the bit where I could be wrong and you could be right and I'd like you could clarify this for me. This all occurred when I was big into emulation and read up on it daily. However this is around mame 0.8 I think and before the big change over in team and I haven't really been following mame since then so maybe a big rewrite of the engines emulating these types of hardware happened in the interm.
I don't follow you. Mame was never intended or claimed to run these games for playability. They ethos of the devs is simple, document the hardware to the finest detail & implement it in software for the truest possible emulation. While that may seem somewhat laughable, it's the code that's accurate, not the end result...yet. As cpu power increases, Mame is able to get closer to playability with 3d stuff. It's only a bonus we can play any game on it though.Retr0gamer wrote:Well most of them really pre PS1.
We're talking arcade 3d arcade games here are we not?Retr0gamer wrote:Even then I think it would be easier to program the emulators to run everything through the CPU considering that once you get into using GFX cards to take the workload off the CPU you are getting into multi processor programming.
Not really an issue. It's only number crunching needed, the cpu can be relieved of this task and be made to focus on other stuff better suited to the slower speeds.Retr0gamer wrote:I'm pretty sure a lot of the good 3D emulators basically just use the 3D accelerators to add effects like texture filtering and anti-aliasing and not doing more complicated stuff like z-buffer calculations, texture management etc. like in modern games.
The ones I'd call playable (Viva Nonno for example) heavily utilise the gfx card. They even have minium recomendations for graphics power.Retr0gamer wrote:You're right though about adding 3D acceleration to emulation making things more inaccurate, just look at how woefully inaccurate PS1 and N64 emulation is. When you get to PS1 and N64 it's were 3D systems started to use custom 3D hardware similar to the GPU accelerators of today and things become more complicated.
And that's why Mame struggles where others succeed, two different goals though remember. But yep, agreed (huzzah! :P)0 -
Join Date:Posts: 50005
CPS2 was fist hacked by CPS2Shock, with hardware hacks. They obtained the info necessary to create XOR tables to decrypt the games. The encryption was fulley reversed years later by Nicola & another chap, both member of MameDev at the time
Final Burn was the first emulator to have CPS2 emulation that worked after the encryption got hacked. I'm pretty sure the final burn source code was assimulated by Mame at the time which meant mame very quickly got CPS2 emulation and final burn anyway used some mame code which made it easier.Correct, it's not a straight code dump though if they don't discover it first. It's cleaned up & ran without the help of gfx cards (at the risk of repeating myself again) for accuracy, not playability.
Oh I know but mame does use source code from other emulators, or at least it used to, to run some systems and it is altered.Yep, they all add to the workload, more than you'd expect. If they were simply cpu based they'd be integrated into cpu's today. They're not
I think some of those filtering effects are carried out by the ancient MMX tech that is on all chips now, NeoRageX uses MMX to do it anyway, whish is basically a kind of hardware acceleration anyway. Funnily enough Intel are making on chip GPU's now.I don't follow you. Mame was never intended or claimed to run these games for playability. They ethos of the devs is simple, document the hardware to the finest detail & implement it in software for the truest possible emulation. While that may seem somewhat laughable, it's the code that's accurate, not the end result...yet. As cpu power increases, Mame is able to get closer to playability with 3d stuff. It's only a bonus we can play any game on it though.
Ah you see that is MameDevs current philosophy on emulation when they expanded the team and they got a lot more pedantic about emulation and wanting to make it as accurate as possible. Before this big shake up the mame developers did have this philosophy but it was secretly more about getting as many games and systems running on mame as possible which is why they usually implemented the source could of the latest emulator into mame just to get it working and then fixed the emulation afterwards. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what mamedev are currently doing, it is more in keeping with the original vision and now that most systems are emulated they can concentrate on accuracy.
I still think that a lot of the slow speed of mame is down to the inefficiency of the coding since it's emulating so many systems. Mame kept getting slower with each release even on for systems that mamedev hadn't touched due to more systems and games being emulated creating more inefficiencies.
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 33752
Well, I can honestly say, I think we all learned a bit about Mame this evening, thanks to guest lecturers Prof Retr0 and Prof EnterNow and wish them well on their research paper which is all about how to bore the tits off innocent readers of A&R forums...
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Well, I can honestly say, I think we all learned a bit about Mame this evening, thanks to guest lecturers Prof Retr0 and Prof EnterNow and wish them well on their research paper which is all about how to bore the tits off innocent readers of A&R forums...
Technoweenies, you can spot them anywhere It's like this whole Top Gear debacle that baffles me to no end I must say. If the show is so cr@p, why are the same people watching it weekly to complain about it? 
The moral, don't read what bores ya Cidona :pac:Retr0gamer wrote: »Hey this forum used to be just emulation :P Anyway I think enternow might be right but until I see definitive evidence I'm not sure which of us is.
Like all of our endless debates that 'bore the hell out of innocent readers' we've both made good points Sorry Cider, ya can wake up now & get back to the dino talk :pac: 0 -
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Just got Metal Gear for the NES.
I'm really enjoying NES games at the moment...there's something nice about them collecting wise that I've never really noticed before. The labels stay really fresh and glossy. Think I may try to expand the collection.0 -
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Nice alright ya jammy fecker!
No vids on youtube for jammy feckers, this is the closest I could find!
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Join Date:Posts: 50005
Just got Metal Gear for the NES.
I'm really enjoying NES games at the moment...there's something nice about them collecting wise that I've never really noticed before. The labels stay really fresh and glossy. Think I may try to expand the collection.
NES Metal Gear is an absolutely terrible game. It's only redeeming feature is the god awful translation which is hilariously bad. Metal Gear on the MSX however is a different beast and a fantastic game.
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Retr0gamer wrote: »There's a big difference between a shit game and being shit at a game :P
Lol you certainly proved that with SSF4
DS is generic slash n hack stuff imo, or it it only yours that matters? :pac:0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 50005
Lol you certainly proved that with SSF4
Burn!DS is generic slash n hack stuff imo, or it it only yours that matters? :pac:
Actually it really isn't generic hack n slash. Have you beaten the first boss yet and opened up all the online options from the other stages? Also if you aren't playing the game online you're also missing out on most of what the game offers. It's something totally new in terms of how it uses online features, there's nothing else like it. Even if you want to say it's generic hack n slash in terms of combat and level design nothing has done it better than Demon's Souls.
If you are having trouble with the difficulty then stick it out and don't be ashamed to use the demon's souls faq because you really are missing out on something special. If you aren't playing online then you're totally missing out on what makes it special so I could see where you get that point of view.
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Retr0gamer wrote: »If you are having trouble with the difficulty then stick it out and don't be ashamed to use the demon's souls faq
Lol, nah your grand thanks
Multiplayer online? Not my cup of tea either dude, I knda grew outta that :P Single player story based stuff appeals to me more tbh, & after a few mins of killing skeletons I found myself moving on. That being said, I havn't given the game a proper chance.
My real point is, is Metal Gear crap because you think so? Or would some people like it?0 -
Lol, nah your grand thanks
Multiplayer online? Not my cup of tea either dude, I knda grew outta that :P Single player story based stuff appeals to me more tbh, & after a few mins of killing skeletons I found myself moving on. That being said, I havn't given the game a proper chance.
My real point is, is Metal Gear crap because you think so? Or would some people like it?
It's not at all like 'traditional' online multiplayer, even if 14 year-old kids played it and wanted to shout abuse at you, there's no way for them to. It's effectively a part of the singleplayer game0 -
ghostchant wrote: »It's not at all like 'traditional' online multiplayer, even if 14 year-old kids played it and wanted to shout abuse at you, there's no way for them to. It's effectively a part of the singleplayer game
"Sshh, I had to pick a game Retr0 loves, nothing else would have p1ssed him off
"
Oh really?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 50005
Lol, nah your grand thanks
Multiplayer online? Not my cup of tea either dude, I knda grew outta that :P Single player story based stuff appeals to me more tbh, & after a few mins of killing skeletons I found myself moving on. That being said, I havn't given the game a proper chance.
Ah you see that's the beauty of Demon's Souls. I'm not a big fan of multiplayer either but the thing about Demon's Souls is that the online features actually enhance the single player game. Some people have even labelled the game a massively singleplayer online RPG. There's also very little interaction with other players so no whining over the microphone.
Online you will see the ghosts of other players playing the game and they can leave messages to help you, and also hinder you. You can rate messages and if yours gets rated you get your health back so it's good to leave helpful messages. Also you can bring 2 other people to help you through the levels by summoning them and you can also offer yourself up to be summoned. Helping a player beat the level brings you back to body form giving you extra health and also allowing you to summon other players. However in body form you can be invaded by a player that will try to kill you and can also invade other peoples levels to try and steal their experience. And one of the most innovative things is in one of the levels you canbe summoned to be the boss of someones game and in the same way when you face this boss you will be facing another player. The online modes really are totally essential to full enjoyment of the game.
There's also more than just zombies to kill in the game! They're only cannon fodder in the very early parts of stage 1.My real point is, is Metal Gear crap because you think so? Or would some people like it?
Usually I'm ranting about overrated games. Donkey Kong Country, not the best platformer in the world but a decent one.
NES Metal Gear on the other hand is absolute dirt, it really is a dreadful game and a disgraceful port. It's nigh on unplayable with tonnes of stuff cut from the original and the new stuff like the mazes (especially the one the game begins with) being awful to play through. Colision detection is way too sensitive so when you get caught you will almost certainly die and you willget caught because of the unfair enemy placement.
Metal Gear didn't become the successful franchise it is off the strenght of the NES games, it did so off the vastly superior MSX games. Now these games really are gems and still very playable. Sure MGS is basically a remake of the second metal gear game on the MSX. Play metal gear through an MSX emulator or from the MGS3 subsistance bonus disk, not the terrible NES port. Hideo Kojima has personally come out about how much he hates the NES Metal Gear games.
Metal Gear on the NES does have one redeeming feature:
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