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Retr0gamer wrote: »Don't waste your money!
You know me, just because something an awful game doesn't stop me from buying it
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ghostchant wrote: »Picked up a boxed copy of flashback on the snes in the RAGE on saturday
What a great game ... though if you play it enough you can actually complete most screens with your eyes closed. Roll, shoot, jump, 2 steps forward, jump, shoot, shoot, 5 steps forward, jump up, open eyes walk to next screen 0 -
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Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭
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Retr0gamer wrote: »I better stop being hypocrticial then considering I'm on the look out for Superman on the N64
The very idea that the great and wonderful Retr0 would be a hypocrite is unthinkable, that is to say it was unthinkable, now you've mentioned it you do it all the time!
(only kidding!
)
Oh, and I got two wonderswan games today, a weird frog rhythm action game called Rhyme Rider Kerorican, Sera knows the one, and the brilliant Klonoa: Moonlight Museum, both quite cheap too, and the latter was posted, from Japan, on the 2nd of Feb! Now thats a fast postal service!0 -
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Just got a PS1 to JAMMA adapter. For a total of €35 delivered! Bargain.
I know my cab isn't currently working...eventually when it is (!) and I get this modded PS1 from Enternow and the JAMMA adapter...Final Fantasy VII on a cab!!!
Okay, I'm kidding, it'll be more like The Raiden Project and Dodonpachi..this is going to rule 0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 50005
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Retr0gamer wrote: »Hey! Mame is ****e, my PC is a beast. It really says something about the state of mame when it's struggling to run a game running on PS1 hardware on a machine that is running Stalker at 60 FPS on full settings.
Actually it really says something about your CPU
As you know, Mame is purely software driven, not utilising any 3d acceleration at all. If you want to play 3d stuff at reasonable levels, Mame is not the way to go. 0 -
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Well I find that mame is such a mess of programming that it runs games so much slower than an emulator dedicated to the hardware it's emulating. You can get a PS1 emulator working on a 400MHz machine yet my 2.2Ghz dual core machine was struggling to emulate the same hardware through mame. I used to have a 100Mhz P100 that ran CPS1 games perfectly in Callus but you wouldn't get 5FPS out of the same game on mame. Mame emulates a whole heap of hardware but the price you pay is amazing inefficiency. You should see STV (same hardware as the saturn) stuff running on my machine in mame, 1 frame every 5 seconds! Was in Sera's place and she has saturn emulators running perfect on her fairly modest laptop.
In other words... leave my PC alone!
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Retr0gamer wrote: »Well I find that mame is such a mess of programming that it runs games so much slower than an emulator dedicated to the hardware it's emulating.
Thats a common misconception. If your looking for programming accuracy, you should know that Mame isn't designed to actually play games, it's only a method of documenting the hardware. Playing games is only a bonus. If you were to compare the programming of Namco System 11 in Mame, with Viva Nonno (which plays the games perfectly), you'll find that the Mame programming is much, much, much more accurate to the original hardware.Retr0gamer wrote:You can get a PS1 emulator working on a 400MHz machine yet my 2.2Ghz dual core machine was struggling to emulate the same hardware through mame. I used to have a 100Mhz P100 that ran CPS1 games perfectly in Callus but you wouldn't get 5FPS out of the same game on mame. Mame emulates a whole heap of hardware but the price you pay is amazing inefficiency. You should see STV (same hardware as the saturn) stuff running on my machine in mame, 1 frame every 5 seconds! Was in Sera's place and she has saturn emulators running perfect on her fairly modest laptop.
In other words... leave my PC alone!
Thats because as I explained above, the emulators that are dedicated to one system use all kinds of hacky methods to achieve the end result. The perception for the casual gamer is that yes, Viva Nonno is so much better than Mame. But anyone looks for the reason this is, will find that Mame is running every piece of code that was in the original hardare, through software only. The reason being is because System 11 (I'm only using this as an example, it applies for every other system/rom) didn't have a GeForce card, or some ATI powerhouse to do the work. And using them as such, will only provide an innacurate perception of the game.
For someone who prides himself on emulation accuracy, you've kind of shot yourself in the foot there 0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 50005
Thats a common misconception. If your looking for programming accuracy, you should know that Mame isn't designed to actually play games, it's only a method of documenting the hardware. Playing games is only a bonus. If you were to compare the programming of Namco System 11 in Mame, with Viva Nonno (which plays the games perfectly), you'll find that the Mame programming is much, much, much more accurate to the original hardware.
Thats because as I explained above, the emulators that are dedicated to one system use all kinds of hacky methods to achieve the end result. The perception for the casual gamer is that yes, Viva Nonno is so much better than Mame. But anyone looks for the reason this is, will find that Mame is running every piece of code that was in the original hardare, through software only. The reason being is because System 11 (I'm only using this as an example, it applies for every other system/rom) didn't have a GeForce card, or some ATI powerhouse to do the work. And using them as such, will only provide an innacurate perception of the game.
I think it might be a combination of both. I know for a fact that the later systems that mame emulate is basically mame using the code of an emulator of that system. CPS2 emulation on MAME is using final burns exact source code yet it's greatly less efficient than Final Burn. The same with other advanced arcade systems, mame is basically just running the best system dedicated emulator, well with premission of the original author of course. Most of the effort that has gont into making mame as accurate as possible has gone into the older games, for instance asteroids ended up not working until the team added real sound emulation instead of the sample files included in the emulator. A lot of emulators for 3D systems are usually pure processor based but add post processing effects like texture filtering and anti aliasing. That's not to say that some don't use 3D acceleratiob more extensively, like PS1 emulation but I hate PS1 emulation because of how inaccurate it is. I wouldn't be surprised if mame is emulating system 11 with Viva Nonno.
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Retr0gamer wrote: »I think it might be a combination of both. I know for a fact that the later systems that mame emulate is basically mame using the code of an emulator of that system. CPS2 emulation on MAME is using final burns exact source code yet it's greatly less efficient than Final Burn.
Well, no it doesn't. If it were a straight code dump into Mame, then Mame would surely utilise 3d acceleration through external video cards? It doesn't, while some of the code may be shared, Mame uses software processing only. Final Burn Alpha takes advantage of anti-aliasing, anisoptric filtering etc, all done by the gfx card. Again, while the Mame version may be less playable, the code is more accurate to the original hardware involved.Retr0gamer wrote:The same with other advanced arcade systems, mame is basically just running the best system dedicated emulator, well with premission of the original author of course.
That's simply not true, tsk tsk Retr0.Retr0gamer wrote:Most of the effort that has gont into making mame as accurate as possible has gone into the older games, for instance asteroids ended up not working until the team added real sound emulation instead of the sample files included in the emulator.
Well there's a reason for that. As I stated above, the main goal of Mame is to document every bit/byte & process of the original hardware, so it's preserved for all of time. Despite the age of said games, continual discoveries & improvements are always made, & as such will be added to Mame constantly. Even if this improvement breaks the game as playable, it will be added if it's more accurate to the original hardware. If something is broke, it means Mame has a coding error based on older methods of emulating etc. If this is still happening with Space Invaders etc, imagine the difficulties of something like Ridge Racer. If you want to play it, use Viva Nonno, but this is only really true newer 3d games.Retr0gamer wrote:A lot of emulators for 3D systems are usually pure processor based
Such as?Retr0gamer wrote:but add post processing effects like texture filtering and anti aliasing. That's not to say that some don't use 3D acceleratiob more extensively, like PS1 emulation but I hate PS1 emulation because of how inaccurate it is. I wouldn't be surprised if mame is emulating system 11 with Viva Nonno.
PS1 emulation has a long way to go still, & that's on current gen pc's. Imagine trying to achieve playability with software only. It's not going to happen in Mame. I actually think Mame has hit a road block with the current philosophy (not using 3d cards). It's become a bloated beast that can ask no more or cpu's today. It needs an external number cruncher, perhaps something like PhysX? It's not actually lending a hand in the emulation, it's just taking the workload off the cpu.
I use both Mame (for everything barring 3d fighters & racers). I have Modeller & Viva Nonno set up for the rest. The best of both worlds 0 -
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Well, no it doesn't. If it were a straight code dump into Mame, then Mame would surely utilise 3d acceleration through external video cards? It doesn't, while some of the code may be shared, Mame uses software processing only. Final Burn Alpha takes advantage of anti-aliasing, anisoptric filtering etc, all done by the gfx card. Again, while the Mame version may be less playable, the code is more accurate to the original hardware involved.
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That's simply not true, tsk tsk Retr0.
Actually it is true or perhaps not entirely, well it was true when it was first implemented it might have changed or they are using a new emulation engine. When Neo Geo emulation as well as CPS2 emulation were cracked by NeoRageX and Final Burn respectively Mame implemented emulation of these machines a few weeks afterwards by implementing the code of these two emulators. This also happened with Model 1 emulation although I forget which emulator they got the source code from and I remember people laughing at it since the original emulator got about 5 FPS at most from the most advanced PC at the time while being a slideshow on mame when it even ran so seemed a bit pointless. The code that mame assimilates is all open source meaning the mame team is free to use it as long as they don't charge for mame and credit the authors. Also Final Burn alpha is an emulator emulating 2D sprite based machines so has no support for GFX cards unless you mean the filtering options which I'm almost sure are CPU based, but I'm nitpicking at you there :P
Now the bit where I could be wrong and you could be right and I'd like you could clarify this for me. This all occurred when I was big into emulation and read up on it daily. However this is around mame 0.8 I think and before the big change over in team and I haven't really been following mame since then so maybe a big rewrite of the engines emulating these types of hardware happened in the interm.Such as?
Well most of them really pre PS1. Even then I think it would be easier to program the emulators to run everything through the CPU considering that once you get into using GFX cards to take the workload off the CPU you are getting into multi processor programming. I wish I knew more about the programing of these, it seems really interesting. I'm pretty sure a lot of the good 3D emulators basically just use the 3D accelerators to add effects like texture filtering and anti-aliasing and not doing more complicated stuff like z-buffer calculations, texture management etc. like in modern games. You're right though about adding 3D acceleration to emulation making things more inaccurate, just look at how woefully inaccurate PS1 and N64 emulation is. When you get to PS1 and N64 it's were 3D systems started to use custom 3D hardware similar to the GPU accelerators of today and things become more complicated.
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