M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

bg07

Tech3 wrote: »

The construction of the 57-kilometere route will lead to the creation of hundreds of jobs in this area, as the overall cost of the project is estimated at between €300,000 and €500,000.

That's what I call a bargain.

blacktopper

If bankers consider the project so high risk that they are reluctant at this point to even lend money at all, at what interest rate will it be eventually lent at to cover the risk. Answer- unbelievably high, hmm no bargain then. Oh well lets just build it anyway. The country is in financial dire straits, we need every cent we've got and the NRA continues to build gold plated road schemes like some depressed housewife on a shopping binge trying to make itself feel better. Just great, no really, just great.

westtip

bg07 wrote: »

That's what I call a bargain.

Or a misprint - it maybe should have read per 300,000 to 500,000 per kilometre as the cost, which actually looks like a bargain as well? 57km at 500 per km = 28 million can't be right can it?

antoobrien

blacktopper wrote: »

If bankers consider the project so high risk that they are reluctant at this point to even lend money at all, at what interest rate will it be eventually lent at to cover the risk. Answer- unbelievably high, hmm no bargain then. Oh well lets just build it anyway. The country is in financial dire straits, we need every cent we've got and the NRA continues to build gold plated road schemes like some depressed housewife on a shopping binge trying to make itself feel better. Just great, no really, just great.

The sad thing about the situation is that we actually do have the money to pay for everything, however we would have to do unpalatable things like cut the public sector pay bill, reform the civil service (labour are in so not a snowballs chance), reform procurement (even more obscure and hard to manage than the American appropriations system) etc.

It's really depressing that so many people think we can use current spending to spend our way out of a mess that is caused by current spending.

Pete_Cavan

westtip wrote: »

Or a misprint - it maybe should have read per 300,000 to 500,000 per kilometre as the cost, which actually looks like a bargain as well? 57km at 500 per km = 28 million can't be right can it?

It should have read 300,000,000 to 500,000,000 or 300 million to 500,000 million if you dont like all the 0's.

Irish and Proud

blacktopper wrote: »

If bankers consider the project so high risk that they are reluctant at this point to even lend money at all, at what interest rate will it be eventually lent at to cover the risk. Answer- unbelievably high, hmm no bargain then. Oh well lets just build it anyway. The country is in financial dire straits, we need every cent we've got and the NRA continues to build gold plated road schemes like some depressed housewife on a shopping binge trying to make itself feel better. Just great, no really, just great.

Just cut the Bull! :mad:

Roads linking our major population centres are vital to economic growth and the M18 must be completed to at least as far as the M6 near Athenry. Also, the M11 Arklow to Rathnew is a must as are smaller schemes for N7 Newlands X, N25 CSRR Interhchanges, N25/M8/N8 Dunkettle Interchange, N5 Longford Bypass Link etc. This is proper economic policy - BTW, I take it that you counted in the economies of ready laid ducting for Fibre Broadband (along our newer motorways) which is vital in positioning Ireland to remain a serious force in IT and Computing.

So, just get over it mate, roads are highly economical!

etchyed

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Just cut the Bull! :mad:

Roads linking our major population centres are vital to economic growth and the M18 must be completed to at least as far as the M6 near Athenry. Also, the M11 Arklow to Rathnew is a must as are smaller schemes for N7 Newlands X, N25 CSRR Interhchanges, N25/M8/N8 Dunkettle Interchange, N5 Longford Bypass Link etc. This is proper economic policy - BTW, I take it that you counted in the economies of ready laid ducting for Fibre Broadband (along our newer motorways) which is vital in positioning Ireland to remain a serious force in IT and Computing.

So, just get over it mate, roads are highly economical!

Wow, what a childish and unnecessarily personal post. I'm amazed at all the names underneath it.

For the sake of balance, I'm giving it a big, fat Unthanks.

-Corkie-

etchyed wrote: »

Wow, what a childish and unnecessarily personal post. I'm amazed at all the names underneath it.

For the sake of balance, I'm giving it a big, fat Unthanks.

Nothing childish about that. He was stating facts.

westtip

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Just cut the Bull! :mad:

Roads linking our major population centres are vital to economic growth and the M18 must be completed to at least as far as the M6 near Athenry. Also, the M11 Arklow to Rathnew is a must as are smaller schemes for N7 Newlands X, N25 CSRR Interhchanges, N25/M8/N8 Dunkettle Interchange, N5 Longford Bypass Link etc. This is proper economic policy - BTW, I take it that you counted in the economies of ready laid ducting for Fibre Broadband (along our newer motorways) which is vital in positioning Ireland to remain a serious force in IT and Computing.

So, just get over it mate, roads are highly economical!

Not to mention the human savings - these new roads have cut down road deaths on our national routes. The cost of a single road death can run into astronomical sums - never mind the human cost - as does the cost of major disabilities caused by RTAs. There will always be accidents but good safe trunk roads will save lives and save huge amounts of moneuy overtime. The N17/18 is a particularly notorious stretch so this is one of the paramount reasons to make sure it happens.

spacetweek

etchyed wrote: »

Wow, what a childish and unnecessarily personal post. I'm amazed at all the names underneath it.

For the sake of balance, I'm giving it a big, fat Unthanks.

Blacktopper's post was the childish, whingeing one.

antoobrien

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70910409&postcount=663

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70911906&postcount=665

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70913470&postcount=667

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70930008&postcount=668

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70930069&postcount=669

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70931419&postcount=670

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70971794&postcount=671


I know I've contributed to this, but I thought we left (and to my mind binned) all that rubbish in the The NRA must be stopped thread.

I'm not a mod but can we try to keep it kinda civil and on topic (or it'll be like having mysterious back).

blacktopper

Ever so sorry to state the truth, that no banker in his right mind will lend to an Irish infrastructure project for fear of default or if he does he will make us pay loads of interest to cover his risk. Look at the faces of the latest TD's in negotiation for forming a government. I saw one the other day, boy did he look deep in thought. I guess the enormity of the sh*t we're in is becoming apparent. You road loving guys better get liking cycle paths because that's all your be getting the the next 10 years. Goodnight.

antoobrien

blacktopper wrote: »

Ever so sorry to state the truth, that no banker in his right mind will lend to an Irish infrastructure project for fear of default

No banker will loan money to Ireland because of all the w*nkers talking about burning bondholders. If you were watching primetime on Tuesday, the chief economist in Bloxham Stockbrokers described the reaction to the idea of burning bondholders:

"If Ireland were to burn the bondholders, we would never deal with Ireland again"

. Grand you might say, except if that happens, we are totally and utterly on our own. We will not be able to pay any teachers, doctors, nurses or any social welfare payments.

The discussion on burning bondholders starts at 6 mins 58s http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1092938.

We have asses like Declan Ganley going on before the election saying people are telling him they don't know why we don't default. The people saying this want the Euro to die because it was becoming a real alternative for the dollar as the the main reserve currency and for international trade. Notice that the US went to war after Iraq starting trading oil in Euros, not exactly coincidence because it had the potential to cost the Americans a massive amount of money in FX trade.

Since we sorted our fiscal problems in the 1980s (contributed to in no small part by the bailout of AIB for buying ICI) there have been few issues with Ireland's sovereign debt. It's being attacked now, now because people don't think that we can pay it back, we have always found a way to do that, but because thay are afraid that we won't pay it back. We might be small change on the global scale, but the real fear is that if we start by defaulting, Portugal will follow, then Spain which will effect the entire European (not EU) and most of the 'Western' economy. In short they're worried that, like Lehmans in the states, we'll end up kicking the legs out from under the entire banking system and potentially cause a 1930s style depression.

So please, cut the bs about infrastructure projects being risky. If I was lender right now those would be the projects I'd get into, because they are far more likely to be paid.

etchyed

-Corkie- wrote: »

Nothing childish about that. He was stating facts.

No, he wasn't. There isn't one fact in his post, just a lot of opinions. They're opinions I happen to agree with mostly but it's still a childish post. "Just cut the Bull - angry face". "Just get over it mate"? Please.

Irish and Proud's post and the positive reaction to it is highly symptomatic of the problematic, unquestioningly pro-roadbuilding attitude on this forum. This thread I started a year ago now seems even more pertinent than ever before.

Tech3

Right, can all of ye stop the bickering please.

Yes there may be a lot of pro-road users on this forum but there is still a few that dont agree with unncecessary road building. I think we can all agree that this route has national significance given it links our 3rd and 4th largest cities together. It is priority 1 on the NRA's list and rightly so.

There is issues with funding through ther PPP mechanism but I'm guessing this could be down to the shadow toll too. If it was hard tolled there is a more solid guarantee that the loan will be paid back.

We may all have differenent opinions on this road scheme but please be civil folks when discussing the negatives or positives on this project. Thanks.

Tech3

spacetweek

antoobrien wrote: »

No banker will loan money to Ireland because of all the w*nkers talking about burning bondholders. If you were watching primetime on Tuesday, the chief economist in Bloxham Stockbrokers described the reaction to the idea of burning bondholders:
. Grand you might say, except if that happens, we are totally and utterly on our own. We will not be able to pay any teachers, doctors, nurses or any social welfare payments.

Relax, man. We're not gonna burn the bondholders and we're not gonna default on our debt.
We're gonna get ourselves a lower interest rate on the debt (seems to be happening already) and pay it off.
The Irish aren't over-emotional with explosive tempers like the Greeks, you don't see us wrecking our own city over an interest rate issue. We'll muddle through like we always have.

spacetweek

Tech3 wrote: »

Right, can all of ye stop the bickering please.

Yes there may be a lot of pro-road users on this forum but there is still a few that dont agree with unncecessary road building. I think we can all agree that this route has national significance given it links our 3rd and 4th largest cities together. It is priority 1 on the NRA's list and rightly so.

There is issues with funding through ther PPP mechanism but I'm guessing this could be down to the shadow toll too. If it was hard tolled there is a more solid guarantee that the loan will be paid back.

We may all have differenent opinions on this road scheme but please be civil folks when discussing the negatives or positives on this project. Thanks.

Tech3

Brass tacks.

I'm sure the first thing the incoming gov will do is sort out where we are with PPPs - in general, not just roads. Too much is riding on this. Look at the Limerick regeneration, Metro North, DART underground etc. All uncertain due to this same issue.

We should have some closure very soon. If they need to make the scheme toll (maybe M11 Enniscorthy too), then so be it. There are no other tolls on the M18/M11 so it would be a reasonable thing to ask.

spacetweek

One last thing: I'm having difficulty trying to ascertain the route of the Claregalway bypass. From the Galway Advertiser article:

The bypass will stretch from Kiniska on the Tuam side of Claregalway to Cregboy on the Galway site and it would also involve the provision of a new bridge over the River Clare.

Here's that on a map.
So does it start on the N17 or the N63, and does it end on the N17 or N18? Like, is this aimed at moving Galway-origin traffic around the area or N18 traffic?

dubhthach

Spacetweek,

Here's one of the maps from the Claregalway area plan on Galway county council website. It shows the preferred route for Claregalway bypass. Of course part of reason for building it was to open up more land for development.
http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/LocalAreaPlans/AdoptedPlans/ClaregalwayLocalAreaPlan/filestable/TheFile,6872,en.pdf

westtip

spacetweek wrote: »

Brass tacks.
We should have some closure very soon. If they need to make the scheme toll (maybe M11 Enniscorthy too), then so be it. There are no other tolls on the M18/M11 so it would be a reasonable thing to ask.

I am swinging towards this idea - shadow tolling is somewhat meaningless, it actually means subsidise the west again, toll south of Athenry, with an open target to achieve x billions plus interest charges until the road is paid for it would perhaps lift a lot of arguments and let us just get on with it. In fact for this project I would propose - use it is a job generator, pay for it upfront from the national pension reserve fund and have a counter on the toll until the monies are paid back. It would be an open and honest way for the public to cope with the road being built. get on with it then pay for it through tolls but the tolls coming back into the public purse. This is the approach IMO we should have taken with all out motorways public public partnership as opposed to public private partnership.

Tech3

I would gladly pay a toll to use a road of this quality, it will reduce journeys by 20-30 mins at peak times which gives an indication of what a tradegy of a route we have to travel currently. It's normally a 80km/hr crawl from Gort to the Oranmore bypass now. Clarinbridge can be busy too and lets not forget Claregalway which takes a long time to navigate through. Then there can be slow sections at the Oranmore roundabouts and Carmore cross. It all adds up to the frustrations of this journey.

1.80 is not much to bypass the awful piece of current infrastructure. I think anything higher would be too much burden on motorists and will encourage toll dodging. I travel regularly from Limerick-Sligo and the N17 needs upgrading in so many places it's unbelievable. I would say the N17 and N5 are up there with the N24 as the forgotten roads of the boom when so much road building was taking place. Yes there was the Claremorris-Knock bypass but that is it!

The other map posted above is the Baile Chláir development plan and the route is indicative only.

Another one for a tender to do an EIS is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055578687

I don't know if that is final as there was talk of having a big junction with the N63 and Corrandulla road but that would involve greater distance and cutting another road.

dubhthach

Deleted User wrote: »

The other map posted above is the Baile Chláir development plan and the route is indicative only.

Another one for a tender to do an EIS is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055578687

I don't know if that is final as there was talk of having a big junction with the N63 and Corrandulla road but that would involve greater distance and cutting another road.

Well given that the M17 is suppose to have an interchange with the N63 it would be fairly silly to extend Claregalway bypass that far. Still no doubt Frankeen promised the moon and the stars to the good Burghers of Claregalway.

Irish and Proud

Here's something interesting from the top of page 15 of the FG/Lab programme for government:

"We will create a Strategic Investment Bank that will become a provider of finance to large capital projects, a conduit for venture capital and a lender to SMEs."

Here's the Link! (PDF File)

spacetweek

Deleted User wrote: »

The other map posted above is the Baile Chláir development plan and the route is indicative only.

Another one for a tender to do an EIS is here:
...
I don't know if that is final as there was talk of having a big junction with the N63 and Corrandulla road but that would involve greater distance and cutting another road.

Wow, that's not really good at all, especially the left hand part. Too many tight turns.
dubhthach, why would it be silly to extend the bypass as far as the future M17 junction with the N63? Seems to make sense to me. Traffic coming from Galway and heading for Tuam via Claregalway should be passed straight through to the motorway.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Here's something interesting from the top of page 15 of the FG/Lab programme for government:

"We will create a Strategic Investment Bank that will become a provider of finance to large capital projects, a conduit for venture capital and a lender to SMEs."

Good to see, of course this had to be one of the first things they'd sort out. Everything depends on it.

dubhthach

spacetweek wrote: »

Wow, that's not really good at all, especially the left hand part. Too many tight turns.
dubhthach, why would it be silly to extend the bypass as far as the future M17 junction with the N63? Seems to make sense to me. Traffic coming from Galway and heading for Tuam via Claregalway should be passed straight through to the motorway.

Good to see, of course this had to be one of the first things they'd sort out. Everything depends on it.

Well silly in that it will ensure it's never built in the current economic climate, alot easier to get a short town bypass then a long one. No doubt though Claregalway will give Moycullen a run for it's money -- Moycullen had a bypass design done in early 70's, never built

spacetweek

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Here's the Link! (PDF File)

There's a typo on the very first page ("purporse"). Not too inspiring!

spacetweek

dubhthach wrote: »

Well silly in that it will ensure it's never built in the current economic climate, alot easier to get a short town bypass then a long one.

Not sure I'd agree with your logic there. Hardly any difference really. As for Moycullen, there's a lot more pressure on Claregalway.

The only issue I can think of is that it'll ensure that no-one from Galway will go for Tuam or the N17 via M6->M17. They'll all continue to use the old N17.

ei.sdraob

5 roundabouts on one bypass

Sponge Bob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

5 roundabouts on one bypass

Designed by a Road Engineer from Galway City...why are you in any way surprised that the Engineer chose to share the pain with the country folks ???