The D4 Accent - And how it gets around

thebigbiffo

one word, 2 letters and 5 numbers solves this entire 15 page argument

the oc
90210

i'm 30 now and i distincly remember when people from the country started to conciously change their accent to 'mid atlantic' - and it was between the first damn episode of 90210 and the end of the oc.

you can throw dawsons creek in there too if you like. but teenagers were becoming much more self concious and our new found wealth meant people assumed they were cool and cultured - and unfortunately, this image was what they went for.

i dont think there's been a widespread change to a D4 accent - i think theres been a change to a mid-atlantic 'ohmigod' accent that people unfamiliar with south dublin assume is where it started. it didn't.

walshb

My view on the forced D4 accent is that those who are trying so hard to keep it up and speak it are only sounding very unintelligible. Their diction and clarity is very poor because they are not pronouncing words properly, so instead of them sounding all intellectual and "upper class," as they seem to think, they are coming across as uneducated and ignorant. Very silly and naive people, a lot of them anyway.

megadodge

So the fear of dropping aitches is strong. So much so that the Dort/D4 accent adds them where not required. The classic is the word "Height". Irish people trying to "speak proper" add an aitch to the end so it becomes "heightH". It's very common. It's spread beyond the D4 type accent too. Write down width and height on a piece of paper and get your mates to read it out loud. A large amount will add the aitch.

Ow come you drop the 'h' in the ighlighted word?

gulf

walshb wrote: »

My view on the forced D4 accent is that those who are trying so hard to keep it up and speak it are only sounding very unintelligible. Their diction and clarity is very poor because they are not pronouncing words properly, so instead of them sounding all intellectual and "upper class," as they seem to think, they are coming across as uneducated and ignorant. Very silly and naive people, a lot of them anyway.

I'd love to say "roysh" in front of you just to annoy you - I'd say I'd get some scowl...

The psycho-acoustics and intelligibility of speech aren't as simple as you claim. Foreign accents that you haven't heard before take time to tune in to. Often after a couple of sentences and some additional concentration, you can understand the accent with ease, until it becomes very familiar and you can understand the person as if you were talking to your mother.

Wibbs

megadodge wrote: »

Ow come you drop the 'h' in the ighlighted word?

I didn't. That's how one spells it.

Wibbs

walshb wrote: »

My view on the forced D4 accent is that those who are trying so hard to keep it up and speak it are only sounding very unintelligible. Their diction and clarity is very poor because they are not pronouncing words properly, so instead of them sounding all intellectual and "upper class," as they seem to think, they are coming across as uneducated and ignorant. Very silly and naive people, a lot of them anyway.

It's more to do with the accent being "designed" to be exclusionary I would say. A private club of jargon and different pronunciations. Obviously not as far as a dialect, but that kinda thing. It's not just exclusion, its inclusion in and for the group too. Same as a heavy duty "Dub" accent. You'll notice both groups will rev up their respective accents around each other, but temper them around others not of the group. The D4 accent does it less though as it sees itself as the socially better accent

megadodge

Wibbs wrote: »

I didn't. That's how one spells it.

What's wrong with 'haitch' ?

(Why do I foresee this going back to West Britism v normal ?)

ragg

I have to say, the traditional Dublin accent began to die out during the "celtic Tiger" To some extent i can see how this accent can spread around Dublin.

What makes me cringe to the pit of my stomach, is when some red necked dirt eater adopts this accent after living in Dublin for a wet weekend.

Bob the Seducer

Wibbs wrote: »

You can still spot the echo of the elocution/"speaking proper". EG Regional accents tend to drop "H"s, so "taut" instead of "Thought". "dis and dat" instead of "this and that". So the fear of dropping aitches is strong. So much so that the Dort/D4 accent adds them where not required. The classic is the word "Height". Irish people trying to "speak proper" add an aitch to the end so it becomes "heightH". It's very common. It's spread beyond the D4 type accent too. Write down width and height on a piece of paper and get your mates to read it out loud. A large amount will add the aitch. You hear it all the time with presenters and newsreaders. The ladies of TV3 are a charm for strangulated efforts to murder speech patterns in an effort to sound "proper".

Of all the words to pick, height is a perfect storm! It's a derivitave of the (extinct) old English highth/heighth while the pronunciation in Southern California (O.C. region) seems to most commonly be with a -th at the end.
Throw in the fact that some people are pronouncing the word with a -th to avoid sounding rural while others are doing it to avoid pronouncing the word as hite and sounding American!

Then there's the fact that the letter 'H' is taught as 'haich' in Irish schools (and apparently R.C. Australian ones too) which may also contribute to people not wanting to drop a 'H' when there's a perfectly good one near the end of the word!

Wibbs

megadodge wrote: »

What's wrong with 'haitch' ?

(Why do I foresee this going back to West Britism v normal ?)

You can spell it either way, but "aitch" is the more usual spelling. The letter lends itself to both spellings. I mean you're going to say Horse, not 'orse, unless you're of the cockney persuasion. Feck all to do with west britism I would have thought though?

vampire of kilmainham

Dublin4Life wrote: »

You might think the D4's are gay but I would not f*k with them after watching these video's I know this is in another thread but I think the mods will agree that it belongs here


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiyakyVX9c4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayndgvqnBqU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhgP0qEjNn8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO_DWRsn0d4

Id love to spray them all with an M60 beld fed machine gun:D:D:D

vampire of kilmainham

I hate thottt Dublin4 accent or the dortttt accent or them young ones you hear on the bus going to dun laoighre ooooo myy goddddd soirse i mean like he was like sooooo cooooool an i was likeeee whotttt are youuu likeeeee. Bleedin hell whatt ar yis like...:D:D:D

tinkerbell

Like ohhhhh MYYYY gawwwwwd

And that's all I have to say on the matter!

PS
The D4 accent drives me bonkers, I hate it. Talk normally dammit.

PPS
I much rather the D4 accent than the total innoooor cityyy Dublin accent, now that's way worse.

walshb

Wibbs wrote: »

It's more to do with the accent being "designed" to be exclusionary I would say. A private club of jargon and different pronunciations. Obviously not as far as a dialect, but that kinda thing. It's not just exclusion, its inclusion in and for the group too. Same as a heavy duty "Dub" accent. You'll notice both groups will rev up their respective accents around each other, but temper them around others not of the group. The D4 accent does it less though as it sees itself as the socially better accent

This post nails it.

Excellent point about the accents becoming more accentuated when in groups. Just like a culchie accent. I always notice that it gets more boggerish' when they are together than when they would be talking to "foreigners."

BTW, I despise the skanger "I couldn't give a sh!t" the way I talk Dub accent. A soft and normal Dub
accent is grand.

vampire of kilmainham

ricman wrote: »

THE up inflection comes from oz soap operas , ie so an ordinary sentence sounds like a question.I think the d4 accent is now more mid atlantic because so many young teens watch mtv, and loads of american programs , ie now sky tv has dozens of american channels.IF you watch old rte programs middle class
people in dublin had a more upper class english accent.
The thing that annoys me is teens that use lots of american slang like cool,awesome ,its like they are pretending to live in beverly hills.
I think theres alot of teens who mainly watch just american tv .
i suppose the greed and materialism of the celtic tiger was similar to american pure capitalism so anything american was percieved as good and modern.

Your definetley right a lot of these accents have developed from all the influx of channells we have now Auzzie an American hey dudeeee theres just ssssooo menyyy channells now like iam just like soooo lost likeee dude hoveeee you got a cogretteeee:eek::eek::eek:

vampire of kilmainham

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

Isn't talking about D4s and their accents acient history now? Christ how I wished that phase was over, how tiresome it is.

Just go to sleep then:D:D:D

walshb

gulf wrote: »

I'd love to say "roysh" in front of you just to annoy you - I'd say I'd get some scowl...

The psycho-acoustics and intelligibility of speech aren't as simple as you claim. Foreign accents that you haven't heard before take time to tune in to. Often after a couple of sentences and some additional concentration, you can understand the accent with ease, until it becomes very familiar and you can understand the person as if you were talking to your mother.

I am not talking about foreigners or foreign accents. I am talking about a forced accent from persons (Dubs mainly) who are forcing the accent for whatever reason. I am guessing the reason is snobbery, stupidity, wanting to be unique etc. Bottom line being that in forcing themselves to speak a certain way they actually sound ridiculous, unintelligible and naive.

Sheeps

vampire of kilmainham

ricman wrote: »

I regard it as a generic southside posh accent ,one doesnt have to be from d4 to have it .it seems to be popular in upper class areas.Its like a mid atlantic slightly english accent . Some djs
have a neutral accent as if it was programmed in a computer ,its not irish its like someone who was thought english by watching american tv.
ITS like the irish equivalent of bbc english.
At one time no one with a regional accent was allowed to present on bbc radio 4.

and i,m not trying to criticise america in anyway, i just find it annoying when someone uses american slang all the time, eg you guys etc when speaking to a group of girls.
A GIRL OR WOMAN is not a guy .ITS not as if the irish do not have a wide range of slang ,we dont need to import american slang.

Well it's easyer to say you guys when your with a group of girls or guys rather then say hay you girls an fellas but you could also say heyyy ya allll how ya allllll doinnnnn:eek::eek::eek:

vampire of kilmainham

tommyhaas wrote: »

Is that you Bertie??

NOOOOO IT'S ME IT'S GREGOREYYYYY.:D

vampire of kilmainham

gulf wrote: »

Accents are reflective of your social positioning. If you position yourself alongside people who frequent Dublin's boardwalk and have a habit of smoking on public transport, don't be surprised if a bit of that rubs off on you when being percieved by other members of society.

I'm reminded of a choice quote from Theodore Dalrymple on appearance; but could equally well be extended to accents:

"The fact is that, given the laws of thermodynamics, it takes no effort to look like a slob; to be smart calls for care and attention, not only to one's clothes but to how one behaves. It also means that one must try to imagine what one appears in the eyes of others. Slobbery is the sartorial manifestation of solipsistic egotism; smartness is simultaneously self-respect and respect for others."

Full article:
http://incharacter.org/features/outward-and-visible-signs/

Aside: this thread really just demonstrates how class conscious the Irish multitudes really are, as well as the illusion that "there is no class system in Ireland".

A for god sake get off your high horse...:(

vampire of kilmainham

mars bar wrote: »

Sheesh, selective quoting much?!

The accent is fair annoying. It sounds like the person is suffering from a head cold constantly. It's so...nasal-y.

My sister is going moving to the D4 area for college in September and it's not going to be good because she picks up accents quickly.

So do i because iam a singer and sometimes it's annoying everywhere i go it's not long till i pick up the accent iv heard it said that singers usually do it's something to do with having an ear for music.:eek: "IAM JUST SAYEN":D

vampire of kilmainham

unknown13 wrote: »

By stuck up teenage girls who hang out in dundrum shopping centre wearing abercrombie and thinking they are god's gift.

Fortunately the recession has put an end to most of that crap as Daddy has just got a pay cut.

ha ha fair play to ya i loveeeee it great comment.:D:D:D

vampire of kilmainham

Dublin4Life wrote: »

I disagree guys , the accent itself represents old money in the south dublin area
and it sets us apart from the scum who are taking over our city by having 10 children with 10 different men

God you must be all perfect out there i can tell you there are plenty of women in Dublin4 who have kids for different men ridennnnn like rabbits yis are:D

vampire of kilmainham

tommyhaas wrote: »

What does it matter what people choose to spend there money on?? By no means am I a d4 head, nor do I think Im 'a cut above the rest', but if I choose to wonder around town/whatever shopping centre wasting my salery on overpriced branded teeshirts, well thats my own business isint it??

FAIR PLAY TA YA...:pac::pac:

Wibbs

Gulf makes an interesting point.

gulf wrote: »

Accents are reflective of your social positioning...../....Aside: this thread really just demonstrates how class conscious the Irish multitudes really are, as well as the illusion that "there is no class system in Ireland".

I would agree. On both counts.

One could argue the rise of the dort/D4 accent was a way to mark this distinction among a particular "new" Irish middle class elite, mostly from less salubrious (in their eyes) backgrounds going back a couple of generations. Backgrounds they sought to distance themselves from. "Class" is essentially money/education over time. Education less so for most have access should they chose to get very good educations(even if it can be difficult for the less well off). It's not that long ago that outside of accent extremes, ones social position was less accent driven. Or at least harder to discern. Someone from a long standing farming background with a lot of land could be very wealthy and have very good educations for them and their offspring. Yet they would sound like country types.

Look at older generations. Look at two people with clear diction, a neutral accent and nice speaking voices to coin a phrase. Gay Byrne and Eamonn Andrews. Both came from working class inner city backgrounds, attended a christian brothers national school(Synge Street), yet certainly did not sound like "howyas". Indeed Synge Street has many on its older past pupil roster that have a similar accent. EG Niall stokes among others. By contrast Terry Wogan attended rugger bugger schools and was from a wealthier middle class background yet they all have a similar enough accent. If they had been born in say 1980 that difference would be in the main much higher.

I'd still reckon that this D4 accent has its roots in the migration to the cities in the 60's and people moving up the socioeconomic and education ladder with an attendant need to mark that. Throw in american influences, a endemic Irish tendency to soften consonants and accelerated class distinctions within the group and bobs your mothers brother.

HavingCrack

Am I the only one who thinks that the D4 accent is dying a fairly quick death since this thread was started?

In the last year the amount of people I know talking like this has dropped hugely. The normal Dublin accent (not d4 and not scumbag) is making a comeback i think.

El Siglo

I'm from Offaly originally, I've a 'bogger' accent (not too strong but not weak either) yet I would rather sound like a bogger and say something intelligent than sound like a D4 and say something stupid. Accents are just a way for people to feel like they belong.

Going away from the D4 accent, what would you call the accent that Judy Geller (Ross and Monica's mother) has in Friends? It epitomises old money and class in my opinion!

I think it's American media (Nickelodeon, MTV et all) that is producing this accent. I also personally know many teenagers speaking with US English pronunciation too.