Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Its an old almost grid type aerial actually-you know the really thin ones.
In many parts of wexford presely just blasts in.

Impressive. Shows the theory is being realised in practice:

Arfon is coming very shortly in just under a fortnight and, just like Blaen-Plwyf it has higher digital ERP than it would normally be expected to have. Usually DVB-T stations are 7dB down on analogue ( or 1/5 analogue ERPS) to provide the same coverage, so Preseli analogue was 100kW and Preseli digital is 20kW. Ditto LLandona. Blaen-Plwyf analogue is 100kW and Blaen-Plwyf digital is 40kW (rather than the 'normal' 20kW).

Arfon analogue is 3.5kW and from the 21st Arfon digital will be 2kw (rather than the 'usual' 700W which would have been expected), so Arfon digital is just over 2dB down on analogue. This will be very interesting...

Will Blaenplwf radiate westwards though,thats the question.
I doubt whoevers building that mast want it to cover Dublin to Wexford considering it is on the coast It's in a perfect location to do so.
Aberystwyth is only about 70 or 80 miles due east of Arklow and Wicklow with a perfect sea track.

I was speaking to an old guy who used install VHF aerials over here for Blaenplwf in the 60's and early 70's-they were widespread with perfect reception.

Arfon will work thanks to the sturdier 8k tx but at 2kw,it's going to have problems in poor weather I'd say.
Not as many as the low power 2k presely signals had but it's not going to be as reliable as the new presely.
Blaen is the deal breaker I think to fill the gap north of Arklow up to Dublin.

Isn't arfon analogue 10kw btw??

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Will Blaenplwf radiate westwards though,thats the question.
I doubt whoevers building that mast want it to cover Dublin to Wexford considering it is on the coast It's in a perfect location to do so.
Aberystwyth is only about 70 or 80 miles due east of Arklow and Wicklow with a perfect sea track.

I was speaking to an old guy who used install VHF aerials over here for Blaenplwf in the 60's and early 70's-they were widespread with perfect reception.

Arfon will work thanks to the sturdier 8k tx but at 2kw,it's going to have problems in poor weather I'd say.
Not as many as the low power 2k presely signals had but it's not going to be as reliable as the new presely.
Blaen is the deal breaker I think to fill the gap north of Arklow up to Dublin.

Isn't arfon analogue 10kw btw??

No.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/transmitters/tv/tv_llandona.shtml


NB Arfon is a main station masquerading as a relay because it is practically on top of Snowdonia, see earlier posts in this thread. It is nearly 3000 ft above sea level!

This is why Arfon has such superior coverage: it should have been the main station for West Wales but Llanddona survived due to BBC/IBA enmities. I suspect Blaen will be an omni using the new types of antenna systems and remember it has to transmit NW and SW beams to complete its coverage, but we won't know till February 2010. In the meantime Llandona and Arfon can be calibrated in two weeks time when PSB-1 comes on (the BBC channels.)

For tuning reference:

Llandona: BBC PSB-1: Channel 57, 20kW

Arfon: BBC PSB-1: Channel 41+, 2kW

Antenna

mrdtv wrote: »

I suspect Blaen will be an omni

this is just wishful thinking.

If anything it might become more 'shielded'?

The FM radios from there (BBC Radio 1 on 98.3 etc) used to radiate to the west much better in times past than they do nowadays. I can't see the reverse happening for TV?!

Antenna

bothyhead wrote: »

Sky 3 is being broadcast on CH 45. Channel 45 is also being broadcast from Mount Leinster (RTE Digital trials). These two signals are interfering with one another, which results in Sky3 not being viewable.

Its surprising that the RTE MUX from Mount Leinster doesn't move down to Ch 39 (which is allocated), one would think they would take the more favourable channel for themselves?.
This does not clash with anything from Presely.
It would also come in stronger on legacy Group A aerials for Mt. Leinster analogues (Ch 39 is not much above Group A channels)

Analogue RTE 1 from the Clonmel transmitter used to be on 39 (which lead to problems when Mt Leinster tested DTT on Ch39 before) , but Clonmel since moved up a channel to 40, so that is no longer an issue.

Presely viewers could have a year or more worth of viewing of UK DTT on Ch 45 before Ch 45 is actually needed for Irish commercial DTT, if RTE MUX were to move down to 39!

mrdtv

Antenna wrote: »

this is just wishful thinking.

If anything it might become more 'shielded'?

The FM radios from there (BBC Radio 1 on 98.3 etc) used to radiate to the west much better in times past than they do nowadays. I can't see the reverse happening for TV?!

There is bound to be leakage and in any case they have to provide NW and SW beams to link up with Llandona and Preseli coverage in Wales. The owner of the ukfree.tv web site has the HRP patterns following a BBC FOI disclosure but has not put them up yet due to ongoing health problems! We won't know till February but the new antenna system looks rather different.

mrdtv

Antenna wrote: »

Its surprising that the RTE MUX from Mount Leinster doesn't move down to Ch 39 (which is allocated), one would think they would take the more favourable channel for themselves?.
This does not clash with anything from Presely.
It would also come in stronger on legacy Group A aerials for Mt. Leinster analogues (Ch 39 is not much above Group A channels)

Analogue RTE 1 from the Clonmel transmitter used to be on 39 (which lead to problems when Mt Leinster tested DTT on Ch39 before) , but Clonmel since moved up a channel to 40, so that is no longer an issue.

Presely viewers could have a year or more worth of viewing of UK DTT on Ch 45 before Ch 45 is actually needed for Irish commercial DTT, if RTE MUX were to move down to 39!

I tend to agree with you: it looks to me more like an attempted spoiler by Comreg and RTE. But its too late, they are buying the Freeview boxes as its working well and, in due course, they'll get the T2 boxes when prices fall.

Satdog

Satdog wrote: »

Thanks for that. Only amp connected is a masthead. Current set up is a VHF aerial to Mount Leinster for RTE 1&2 and a standard contract UHF aerial to Preseli - this I presume is picking up my TG4 and TV3 also from Mount Leinster. I'm also picking up the DTT BBC MUX from Preseli. I'll have to upgrade cable and get a new aerial for the rest of the Welsh DTT.

Re: text in bold, can anyone confirm?
I have no UHF aerial to Mt Leinster and I'm receiving perfect TG4 and goodish TV3 so I'm presuming my UHF aerial to Peresli is picking up these. The channel numbers are definitely for Mt Leinster. I hope to change my contract Peresli aerial for a wideband Triax Unix 52 in the next two weeks and want to avoid adding another aerial specifically for TG4 and TV3 as space on the pole is tight.

Thanks in advance

P.S.
Regarding the above I should add that I live just south Wexford town and Mt Leinster is to the NW and Preseli to E/SE.

mrdtv

Llanddona/Arfon switchover schedule

See:

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/40652/Installer_Newsletter_Llanddona__1_month_out_FINAL.pdf

It gives the complete switchover schedule for the new high power Freeview transmitters.

Satdog

Satdog wrote: »

Re: text in bold, can anyone confirm?
I have no UHF aerial to Mt Leinster and I'm receiving perfect TG4 and goodish TV3 so I'm presuming my UHF aerial to Peresli is picking up these. The channel numbers are definitely for Mt Leinster. I hope to change my contract Peresli aerial for a wideband Triax Unix 52 in the next two weeks and want to avoid adding another aerial specifically for TG4 and TV3 as space on the pole is tight.

Thanks in advance

P.S.
Regarding the above I should add that I live just south Wexford town and Mt Leinster is to the NW and Preseli to E/SE.

You can sometimes pick up signals without an aerial at all.
A stripped piece of co ax can do it.
Yes like most people,a reasonable MT Leinster TV3 and TG4 can come in with an aerial pointed to presely.
It sometimes might have shadows and sometimes it might be perfect.
The wideband for presely isn't going to improve your mt leinster reception by the way...it might make presely slightly worse.
Get a proper Group B with loads of elements.
You'll still have the type of TG4/TV3 reception you have now and maybe better if it has more elements than your existing aerial and at the same time you will get better presely by virtue of having the right group B for that.

Satdog

Deleted User wrote: »

You can sometimes pick up signals without an aerial at all.
A stripped piece of co ax can do it.
Yes like most people,a reasonable MT Leinster TV3 and TG4 can come in with an aerial pointed to presely.
It sometimes might have shadows and sometimes it might be perfect.
The wideband for presely isn't going to improve your mt leinster reception by the way...it might make presely slightly worse.
Get a proper Group B with loads of elements.
You'll still have the type of TG4/TV3 reception you have now and maybe better if it has more elements than your existing aerial and at the same time you will get better presely by virtue of having the right group B for that.

Thanks for that. I'll let you know how I get on.

FYI :high pressure weather conditions may cause some brief total losses during this week from presely.
Brief means seconds at a time at worst.
Its caused by co channel interference from transmitters whose signals travel much much further in these conditions.
signals tend to be more unstable because of this also causing temporary loss.

marclt

Blaenplwyf will be restricted to the west.

An official source says that it will be restricted by 9dB between 285 and 295 degrees to protect the Arklow transmitter.

the ironing is delightfull...
I hope you are of course joking as the chances of there being an arklow tx any time soon even though one is planned is slim.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

Blaenplwyf will be restricted to the west.

An official source says that it will be restricted by 9dB between 285 and 295 degrees to protect the Arklow transmitter.

Bear in mind that that means that it will only radiate 5kW in that direction (which will be enough in the absence of CCI!!)) which is only a ten degree arc cut-out. FWIW I don't think a commercial Irish DTT service is ever going to happen and given TV3's reversion to test cards I am beginning to wonder if Irish DTT will ever see the light of day without a commercial deal with either Freeview or Sky. Black Briar is on the money this afternoon.

It will be very interesting to see how Arfon and Llanddona pan out from next week. With every week that passes more and more Freesat and Freeview boxes will be installed in ROI killing the business case for commercial Irish DTT: should ROI qualify for the World Cup there will be a lot of T2 viewers in the South East.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

Blaenplwyf will be restricted to the west.

An official source says that it will be restricted by 9dB between 285 and 295 degrees to protect the Arklow transmitter.

Note, if you look on google maps, that is a very narrow restriction. (They have to cover Portmeirion of 'The Prisoner' fame below Caernarvon !).

It means its going to be unrestricted up to Dublin!!!! 40kW DVB-T.

Meanwhile as I just posted on digital spy :

presely is at the strongest I've ever seen it here today presumably due to athmospheric conditions.
This morning it was dipping out for a few seconds at a time on various channels-looking at the strength vs quality,the strength during the dips stayed above 60% whereas quality dipped to between 0 and 20 or 30%-it's nearly always 100%.
Low quality like that with high signal suggest co channel interference making bot competitor tx's unviewable-it's what we usually observe on ch 45 here.

Currently signal strength is at 100% here with quality at 100% [the first time my humax has read 100%,it's normally anwhere from 70 to about 85%)
Quality is 100%

Ch45 is blasting in over Mt Leinster today with signal of 89% and quality of between 40 and 50% making the likes of sky sports news and dave and sky news perfectly watchable today and RTE nowhere in sight on that channel unless you plug out presely

mrdtv

mrdtv wrote: »

Note, if you look on google maps, that is a very narrow restriction. (They have to cover Portmeirion of 'The Prisoner' fame below Caernarvon !).

It means its going to be unrestricted up to Dublin!!!! 40kW DVB-T.

I'm also 2 miles south of arklow - am I covered

Yes I'd agree,this will blast into Dublin and south to Wicklow Town and most likely give an alternative in co wexford.

marclt

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm also 2 miles south of arklow - am I covered

Yes I'd agree,this will blast into Dublin and south to Wicklow Town and most likely give an alternative in co wexford.

NO jokes here BB... just 'quality' information...

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out!!!

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm also 2 miles south of arklow - am I covered

Yes I'd agree,this will blast into Dublin and south to Wicklow Town and most likely give an alternative in co wexford.

If there is no Arklow transmitter cochannel, you will be. This is a very narrow restriction around Arklow, reducing signal strength by 1/8 to 5kW. That worked in the Preseli pre-DSO days. Just look at google maps and calibrate the arc.

They have to cover the peninsula which Portmeirion is on which means that Dublin is in line to get it. It will cause problems, however, with any long range Divis analogue channels in , say, Killiney where the noise will increase.

Arfon is the most interesting because of its established ROI coverage, huge HAAT and ERP just below analogue. As an omni its going to romp into Wicklow: next week's reports will be very interesting indeed and I will create a special section.

mrdtv

mrdtv wrote: »

Arfon is the most interesting because of its established ROI coverage, huge HAAT and ERP just below analogue. As an omni its going to romp into Wicklow: next week's reports will be very interesting indeed and I will create a special section.

if digital strength to mirror analogue is one fifth of the analogue erp then that means arfon strength is going up by a factor of 4 or thereabouts?

Romp in it should in that case.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile as I just posted on digital spy :

presely is at the strongest I've ever seen it here today presumably due to athmospheric conditions.
This morning it was dipping out for a few seconds at a time on various channels-looking at the strength vs quality,the strength during the dips stayed above 60% whereas quality dipped to between 0 and 20 or 30%-it's nearly always 100%.
Low quality like that with high signal suggest co channel interference making bot competitor tx's unviewable-it's what we usually observe on ch 45 here.

Currently signal strength is at 100% here with quality at 100% [the first time my humax has read 100%,it's normally anwhere from 70 to about 85%)
Quality is 100%

Ch45 is blasting in over Mt Leinster today with signal of 89% and quality of between 40 and 50% making the likes of sky sports news and dave and sky news perfectly watchable today and RTE nowhere in sight on that channel unless you plug out presely

I think this shows that 'jaw -jaw is better than war-war'. As Antenna said RTE Mount Leinster RTE DTT should switch to Channel 39 and then peaceful coexistence is possible. The public in SE Ireland will then buy the Sagem boxes ( Uncle Rupert makes an unexpected contribution to standards harmony) and everybody gets Irish + UK channels on DTT. Then, the financially fortunate, buy the DVB-T2 boxes for the World Cup and are future proofed.

The real problem in the last few years, with the unfolding trainwreck, is that RTE, BCI and Comreg have been incapable of thinking out of the box:

a) Pay -DTT is a dead duck vs BSkyB non-equity participation. Deep deja-vu!

b) Analogue Welsh overspill is about to be replaced by superior DTT overspill including HDTV.

c) Freesat effectively completes the UK channels access for those outside the classical overspill areas.

d) The Irish TV market is too small to go it alone versus its neighbour: had Sky's Picnic been authorised in the UK it would have been a very different story with the £19.99 Sagem box. There are too many TV interactions with the UK. This is the real reason why Panasonic don't give a damn.

e) When Divis & co are switched over in three years time DVB-T2 boxes will be commodity priced.

f) TV3's replacement by test cards and TG4's indicate doubt by broadcasters in Ireland. Why incur operating costs when there is no business model or strategy

g) Radio silence from OneVision et al.


The lack of a coherent commercially credible Irish DTT strategy means that totally radical 'un-Irish' solutions should be considered, especially after a decade of faffing about,:

a) Hand it all over to Sky, and if that's too much;

b) Joint venture with Freeview;

c) Abandon it entirely;

d) Construct a commercially credible alternative.

Given the 'previous' it will be interesting to see what happens...

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

if digital strength to mirror analogue is one fifth of the analogue erp then that means arfon strength is going up by a factor of 4 or thereabouts?

Romp in it should in that case.

Yes, Arfon is 3.8KW PAL. The usual rule would be 760W analogue to DVB-T but it is 2kW DVB-T or just under 2dB down. It is, alas, a Freeview-lite transmitter. However it will carry HD very soon. Standing by....

mrdtv

http://help.digitaluk.co.uk/display/4/kb/article.aspx?aid=7269

NB, it now appears BBC B will not be launched as an MPEG2 service in four weeks time. Apparently details of the DVB-T2 HD rollout UK wide are imminent but there will only be 5 MPEG2 muxes from Llandona at the end of the process and two from Arfon on 18 November.

First switchover on 21 October:

LLanddona, Ch 57, 20kW

Arfon, Ch 41+, 2kW.

Standing by...

Sponge Bob

Is it possible that the UK is actively considering a more ambitious HD coverage plan for the OLYMPICS MRDTV ...as in by May 2012 pre ASO or to bring forwards ASO dates planned for late 2012 to the early part of the year .....if the Welsh and Borders switchovers are seen to run splendidly that is???

The Olympics will be a massive national shindig in the UK , unlike that bloody world cup that only enthused the English 'Plan A' was for 50% Freeview HD coverage by then and further coverage relied not least on what Ireland would do ...along with France of course where they will execute ASO by late 2011 .

Holland already did its ASO as did Flanders in Belgium .

mrdtv

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is it possible that the UK is actively considering a more ambitious HD coverage plan for the OLYMPICS MRDTV ...as in by May 2012 pre ASO or to bring forwards ASO dates planned for late 2012 to the early part of the year .....if the Welsh and Borders switchovers are seen to run splendidly that is???

The Olympics will be a massive national shindig in the UK , unlike that bloody world cup that only enthused the English 'Plan A' was for 50% Freeview HD coverage by then and further coverage relied not least on what Ireland would do ...along with France of course where they will execute ASO by late 2011 .

Holland already did its ASO as did Flanders in Belgium .

The last regions switch over before the Olympics. See my earlier post: the Welsh DTT transmitters will all be HD by the end of next year. Blaen-Plwyf will be HD by March and Llanddona, Arfon and Preseli by the end of the year. Very interested to hear reception reports from Irish Llanddona/Arfon viewers of BBC PSB1 services from Wednesday. Note that the 50% figure refers to ppolulation coverage, the World Cup will be a big seller (why pay Sky or Freesat for a system?)....

The Cush

mrdtv wrote: »

The last regions switch over before the Olympics.

The planned switchover dates for Tyne Tees (30th Aug/Sept/Oct) and Ulster (30th Nov) are post 2012 Olympics (July 27 - August 12, 2012). Have these dates changed?

mrdtv

The Cush wrote: »

The planned switchover dates for Tyne Tees (30th Aug/Sept/Oct) and Ulster (30th Nov) are post 2012 Olympics (July 27 - August 12, 2012). Have these dates changed?

It is hoped before the Olympics: dates for 2012 are not finalised. DSO work has now begun at Divis and Pontop Pike (Tyne Tees) is to have an interim DVB-T2 HD multiplex installed in time for the World Cup next year: http://www.dtg.org.uk/news/news.php?id=3558

marclt

There are some hidden services on the BBC B mux now, are these just data streams or are they only visible on HD compliant boxes?

Even if the HD service launches later this year - we don't currently have any boxes capable of receiving the signals on the market... will these be as cheap as a freesat box? Will Sky start reducing the prices of HD boxes even further to keep up?

From Welsh transmitters the offering isn't as exciting as the rest of the UK.. we'll have BBC HD, ITV HD and S4C HD... thrilling... unless C4 cut a deal with S4C and bring us mixed service just like S4C in the analogue old days...

:rolleyes:

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

There are some hidden services on the BBC B mux now, are these just data streams or are they only visible on HD compliant boxes?

Even if the HD service launches later this year - we don't currently have any boxes capable of receiving the signals on the market... will these be as cheap as a freesat box? Will Sky start reducing the prices of HD boxes even further to keep up?

From Welsh transmitters the offering isn't as exciting as the rest of the UK.. we'll have BBC HD, ITV HD and S4C HD... thrilling... unless C4 cut a deal with S4C and bring us mixed service just like S4C in the analogue old days...
ta
:rolleyes:

There are just a few data streams on BBC B and videoplace holders, these are still MPEG2. In London there is an on/off DVB-T2 test transmission which sometimes reverts to MPEG2 8k but not for a while now. There may be a few boxes before Xmas, I suspect they'll be about the same as a Freesat box and PVRS will be same as Freesat PVR. Pricing is going to be tricky as you can get MPEG4 boxes for £19.99 and reasonable PVRS (MPEG2) for around £100.

The Sky Christmas counterstrike: free HD boxes if you subscribe for 18 months could be on the cards.

I think Freeview-lite viewers (eg Arfon) are going to be shortchanged: you only have 2 multiplexes in MPEG2 and the third is HD. However for the World Cup this will be an attractive option.