Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

PWSHAM

Re-tuned this morning at 9am in Wicklow Town. Got the following channels on Ch 41;
BBC1, BBC2, BBC News, CBBC, PPC Par., 301. Strength 97, Quality 91.
Assume this is from Arfon. Looking good:).

mrdtv

PWSHAM wrote: »

Re-tuned this morning at 9am in Wicklow Town. Got the following channels on Ch 41;
BBC1, BBC2, BBC News, CBBC, PPC Par., 301. Strength 97, Quality 91.
Assume this is from Arfon. Looking good:).

Yes, it is! Excellent: that is whopping strength and quality for a 2kW transmitter, but Arfon is a very tall site. I wonder what would happen if people had horizontal antennas pointed to Llanddona which has jumped 20 fold in DTT power this morning. Tell the neighbours!

fat-tony

Unfortunately the BBCA mux from Llanddona (CH57) is co-channel with RTE2 analogue from the relay transmitter here in Greystones:( I thought I might see some activity on the Mvision Combo, but not a flicker! What's also as bad, when the BBCB mux comes on stream in November it will be co-channel with RTE1 analogue on CH53:(
I'll leave the aerial pointed at Llanddona for the moment until the second stage, to see if I can pick up D3&4 on CH60 and the commercial muxes lower down the band...

mrdtv

fat-tony wrote: »

Unfortunately the BBCA mux from Llanddona (CH57) is co-channel with RTE2 analogue from the relay transmitter here in Greystones:( I thought I might see some activity on the Mvision Combo, but not a flicker! What's also as bad, when the BBCB mux comes on stream in November it will be co-channel with RTE1 analogue on CH53:(
I'll leave the aerial pointed at Llanddona for the moment until the second stage, to see if I can pick up D3&4 on CH60 and the commercial muxes lower down the band...

These stations are cross-polar. There may well be a notch towards Greystones as well from Llanddona. The main problem with Llanddona is its a small mast and on the eastern side of Anglesey. I am not remotely surprised that Arfon is romping into Wicklow, can you get it from where you are? It is, of course, a Freeview-lite service but will transmit HD before the end of 2010. Interesting how the reception patterns of the last forty years are now changing.

fat-tony

I know the local relay is cross polarity with Llanddona, but it's just 2km away! I didn't really think I had much of a chance with Llanddona as there are no aerials around here pointing at it - all pointing at Arfon. Once the second phase of DSO is complete and I satisfy myself that no reception is possible from Llanddona, I'll point it at Arfon until Blaenplwyf comes on stream next year! Then maybe

mrdtv

fat-tony wrote: »

I know the local relay is cross polarity with Llanddona, but it's just 2km away! I didn't really think I had much of a chance with Llanddona as there are no aerials around here pointing at it - all pointing at Arfon. Once the second phase of DSO is complete and I satisfy myself that no reception is possible from Llanddona, I'll point it at Arfon until Blaenplwyf comes on stream next year! Then maybe

Yes, that makes perfect sense. LLanddona will only be useable outside the Greystones coverage area (it will have to be quite a narrow null because they have to cover Anglesey and part of the mainland.) When I went to a wedding at Tinahilly (Tinakillly?) House a few years ago they had perfect Arfon PAL. You should tell the neighbours that Arfon DTT is on-air so if they have digital tvs they can tune in and if they want a STB that Sagem one is a good call as its got MPEG4 for Irish DTT at the princely sum of £19.99. BTW new Llanddona is now being perfectly in St Helens, Lancashire which is miles away!. The key with these new DTT stations is to understand which channels are clear and what their radiation patterns are, because unlike PAL, they are perfect right out to the coverage area edge if you have sufficient signal strength and there are no interferers in the way (of course you can have droputs due to tropospheric conditions. ) But I bet the STB and digital tv sellers are going to have bonanza sales in Wicklow/Wexford in the next few weeks.

fat-tony

Outside the Greystones area (the major housing estates were cabled during the 80's), most houses use Arfon or have the ubiquitous SKY dish. Tinakilly House is outside Wicklow town and, in common with many locations in North Wicklow, would use Arfon. It's just a pity that Arfon is a relay station and is not carrying the commercial muxes. I see that the BBC are also reducing the number of "red button" channels available on Freeview to make room for HD services - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/10/bbc_red_button_changes_on_free.html

fat-tony

fat-tony wrote: »

Unfortunately the BBCA mux from Llanddona (CH57) is co-channel with RTE2 analogue from the relay transmitter here in Greystones:( I thought I might see some activity on the Mvision Combo, but not a flicker! What's also as bad, when the BBCB mux comes on stream in November it will be co-channel with RTE1 analogue on CH53:(
I'll leave the aerial pointed at Llanddona for the moment until the second stage, to see if I can pick up D3&4 on CH60 and the commercial muxes lower down the band...

Your best bet is Blaenpwyf.
Despite the restriction planned for it towards Arklow,it will blast into Greystones-Similar distance if not less as I am from presely but Blaen will have DOUBLE the power...you will also be suffeciently north of the Arklow restriction for it to light up your aerial when it comes on.
I've no doubt in the wide earthly world about that.
So I wouldnt worry about Llandonna and I would repoint for the time being to arfon and be saving for a long group A for Blaen when it comes on in March 2010 as it will have the full freeview suite of channels.

Great news about arfon in wicklow town.
I would suggest that Blaenplwyf next march will also blast in there being far enough north of that silly arklow restriction.

By the way,in my opinion Arklow does not need a dtt relay-the low power mt leinster and kippure signals are coming in there fine as it is.
I suspect it will never be built now anyway such is the state of RTE's finances and the ridiculousness at this stage of a pay tv irish dtt platform.

If I was a conspiracy theorist,I'd guess that the irish network planners just stuck that arklow tx into the plan to have a reason for Blaen to shield to the west.
If thats the case they will be disappointed as the shielding they've suceeded in getting is very narrow and Blaen will be perfectly accessable to the commuter belt from Bray right down to Wicklow town and thats 10's of thousands of viewers... If they only knew about it :o

subway

excuse my ignorance, but what hope would i have of receiving any signal from dublin 13 (sutton area)?

Howth hill may be a problem
Check back next march when the Blaenplwyf transmitter turns on it's high power digital in march 2010.

subway

cheers, ill be keeping an eye on the foum now that i have a decent setup running (and no management company to tell me i cant!)

mrdtv

subway wrote: »

cheers, ill be keeping an eye on the foum now that i have a decent setup running (and no management company to tell me i cant!)

Are there any aerials round about pointing out to sea: that is a tell-tale sign. Horizontals would be for LLanddona and verticals for Arfon if directed E/SE?

BowWow

mrdtv wrote: »

Are there any aerials round about pointing out to sea: that is a tell-tale sign. Horizontals would be for LLanddona and verticals for Arfon if directed E/SE?

Hi mrdtv,
I think your profile on Digitalspy is for London?
To be honest most of Sutton is cabled by NTL. What aerials there are usually point north to Northern Ireland for Analogue signal.
I was one of the Irish DTT testers and have tried a rescan today for Arfon - nothing doing, but I wasnt really expecting anything as I am using a loft mounted aerial. I'm right on the seafrount with a clear line of sight to Arfon. Blaenpwyf will probably be an issue for me because of Howth Head.
Would be interested in your serial recommendations for me to receive any Welsh DTT signal.
BowWow

Most aerials in coastal dublin are vertically polarised for kilkeel.
If theres nothing in the way all of them might receive arfon if repointed.

They'd deffo receive Blaen next march if nothing in the way and put horizontal.

Bow Wow-you wont get arfon with your aerial on a loft.
If you are on the coast and the terrain means arfons line of sight is south of howth-then go for it and mount a simple group B or wideband on the chimney.
Free BBC and itv in digital quality including itv 2 etc and channel five,five usa etc.

BowWow

Tks Black Briar, have Freesat+ up and running, but would like Dave, Virgin etc. Will have to wait till March. UK Freeview+ box for HD when it launches, coupled with Irish DTT would give me the best of all worlds.

Sponge Bob

There is a problem if you live on the east coast low down , not so if you are up a mountain in wickila .

Of the three 'full service' main transmitters Blaenpwlf is low down near sea level and would be a big ask at sea level 60 -80 miles away llandona is similarly low , Presely is high , but too far south unless you are in Wexford or high up in Carlow and Waterford .

arfon is high but not a full service transmitter like the above . Arfon key dates and transmission parameters

Arfon Switchover tonight .

Try to keep up sponge bob will ya

arfon switched last night-or rather after midnight which is technically today.BBCA started at 2kw at 6am or so.

Also Blaenplwyf will be double the power of presely which is being received deep into wicklow I might add.
Blaen analogue is currently heavily shielded to the west yet receivable poorly in East wicklow-the kind of poor reception that would equate to poor but receivable dtt with a proper high elemented group A.
Next march power will be doubled and most of that west shielding will be gone.

In other news here deep in a very wet wild and windy co wicklow,presely is blasting in as usual tonight with 86% signal strength on for example channels 43 and 46 and 100% quality

Sponge Bob

at what height in wicklow?? , the point was made to bowwow at sea level a lot further north .

Arfon and Llandona ( optimally) would be a group B aerial ( and Presely) while Blaenplwyf is group A , wideband aerials tend not to work well in group A but may be OK in Group B .

Kippure and 3 Rock will be group C generally so a typical Dublin UHF aerial optimised for them would be weak with Llandona/Arfon/Presely and crap for Blaenplwyf ...Greystones is Group B (or C) borderline .

I'm at sea level.

Sponge Bob

No amplification or some ?? External aerial (s) including Irish DTT ? Wideband or group B ??

presely and arfon reception is widespread in wicklow even at sea level with a chimney aerial group b and masthead amp.
people here combine a vhf either to kippure/mt leinster for rte.arfon is used more north but good all along down to gorey.
Ditto with a small group b for some pointed combined to mt leinster/kippure for 3 and tg4.
most that are in the know have irish dtt.
very few so far know about uk dtt availability but its spreading.
I've seen it work well in the weakest of set ups even through tree's with one neighbour on presely.
Its incredible but great!

Sponge Bob

Grand so , chimney mount or slightly above chimney mount and amped Group B sounds like it should work on the east coast frrom Kilkeel north of central Dublin over to LLandona or Arfon and Presely in the SE .

But do you know anybody who bothers with Blaenplwyf given the difficulty sourcing a group A aerial along with the general availability of Group B aerials in the SSE bit of Ireland opposite Wales??

FREETV

Hi everyone, is it possible to get reliable reception of the Freeview UK DTT in the Swords area from Welsh transmitters preferably or Divis in the North? If so would I need a variable high gain UHF Masthead Amp of up to 26dB in strength or higher? Will an aerial 30-40Ft up be able to pick up the necessary signal? What group aerials will I need? I read that Group E aerials perform better than wideband aerials for the Group A and B category Transmitter. Group aerials are difficult to find. Will I need a 91 Element or a Triax Unix 100 aerial? Am I hoping for too much and will have to wait until next March until the most powerful Welsh Transmitter has gone up to full power to get a reliable signal? Also is there anywhere in Newry to pick up suitable Tv aerials? Thanks guys for any feedback.

To people in Dublin...
Arfon and Llandonna are only a slight possibility.
I would not be recommending buying specefic aerials for them unless you previously had fair or even bad but consistent analogue from there.

Blaenplwyf is a different kettle of fish though-but it won't be on stream untill march 2010 when it will have little or no west restriction unlike now and at double the eqivalent power it has now.
When it lights up...enthusiasts first will be investigating how strong it will be over here and it's likely to be.
It will have 20 times the power of arfon which is more than enough to compensate for less height.Arfon is blasting in.
It does have some height has,it's not exactly on the beach or anything like it.

@ sponge bob -this has been discussed a few times in this thread-so could you read the thread as long as it is.
Thats what you'll have to do as search is down at the moment and it will save me and others having to repeat ourselves

*EDIT*

Group B aerials are easy to get in Wicklow and group A's aren't that hard to source either.
A registered aerial contractor would have one easily enough and they can be purchased on the web very easily.

Sponge Bob

So is that a "nobody uses Blaenplwyf Group A right now but that will all change in March and check back here then" sort of answer ???

Blaenplwyf may even need its own thread with its own reception reports given the aerial issue to be quite frank, this thread should be retained for group B only . On investigation it is not low like I said it is c 300m about the same as LLanddona so I would not worry about it at sea level .

Arfon and Presely are 600m up .

mrdtv

BowWow wrote: »

Hi mrdtv,
I think your profile on Digitalspy is for London?
To be honest most of Sutton is cabled by NTL. What aerials there are usually point north to Northern Ireland for Analogue signal.
I was one of the Irish DTT testers and have tried a rescan today for Arfon - nothing doing, but I wasnt really expecting anything as I am using a loft mounted aerial. I'm right on the seafrount with a clear line of sight to Arfon. Blaenpwyf will probably be an issue for me because of Howth Head.
Would be interested in your serial recommendations for me to receive any Welsh DTT signal.
BowWow

That will usually be for Kilkeel. If there are no aerials out to sea it looks bad: a loft aerial is no good for long distance reception. I did see am impressive horizontal array in Killiney (up high pointing out to sea for Llanddona). Loft aerials are no good. To see the signal path use google maps or megalithia. I don't like the so-called high-gain aerials they sell in the superstores: they are c**p! It is best to used recognised names such as Antiference, Fracarro and some others. Both Blake aerials and www.aerialsandtv.co.uk are excellent third party internet vendors who are very competent. There is also, I believe, a new very high performance double log called the Vision Ghost IIRC. Logs are very good and variable gain masthead amps are now essential. Triple boom antennas should be avoided as they will be round your head or ears after a storm, as their windloading performance is dire.... And good Grouped aerials are best: see the measurements over at aerialsandtv.co.uk

At sea level with unobstructed views you don't need a high aerial because the signal will just be skimming across the top of the sea due to the curvature of the earth and DVB-T signals will be reinforced by any reflections off the mountains.

So to sum up:

Good outdoor aerials, variable gain masthead amplifiers, very low loss satellite cable and a compass or one of the modern DTT signal strength meter (there's a very good cheapy one you can get off Amazon now preferred by caravanners, but a delight for two minute alignment!. I'll post a link to that.)

You'll have to decide what to do. In the higher parts of South Dublin going towards Wicklow with good views its likely they can get Divis, LLanddona and Arfon. However Divis DTT is currently a dud due to its low power and current cochannel on several muxes with Three Rock: this changes in 2012 when the PSB muxes acquire the old chs 21, 24 and 27 now in use for PAL.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Most aerials in coastal dublin are vertically polarised for kilkeel.
If theres nothing in the way all of them might receive arfon if repointed.

They'd deffo receive Blaen next march if nothing in the way and put horizontal.

Bow Wow-you wont get arfon with your aerial on a loft.
If you are on the coast and the terrain means arfons line of sight is south of howth-then go for it and mount a simple group B or wideband on the chimney.
Free BBC and itv in digital quality including itv 2 etc and channel five,five usa etc.

This is worth a punt as reports from across the pond indicate Arfon is a star performer now in Anglesey which is significant, and there are more reports from Ireland today (link shortly.) Arfon is indeed south of Howth, just enter it on google maps, and it looks like a straight sea path to Dublin 12. BTW Kilkeel is also Group B IIRC.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Try to keep up sponge bob will ya

arfon switched last night-or rather after midnight which is technically today.BBCA started at 2kw at 6am or so.

Also Blaenplwyf will be double the power of presely which is being received deep into wicklow I might add.
Blaen analogue is currently heavily shielded to the west yet receivable poorly in East wicklow-the kind of poor reception that would equate to poor but receivable dtt with a proper high elemented group A.
Next march power will be doubled and most of that west shielding will be gone.

In other news here deep in a very wet wild and windy co wicklow,presely is blasting in as usual tonight with 86% signal strength on for example channels 43 and 46 and 100% quality

Actually poor analogue constant is usually perfect high power DTT because of the error correction. The null information reference Blaen-Plwyf is clearly an Ofcom leak and Blaen-Plwyf has to serve the northern part of Cardigan Bay with Dublin just behind it: again look at google maps and you can also plot the restriction where the signal is reduced by 9dB from 40kW to 5kW. Recall that Arfon is , as of today, being received nicely at 2kW in Ireland on Ch 41 DTT.

mrdtv

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=36171981&postcount=33

A very long thread: there's even a picture of the antenna in use right at the start of the thread.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

On investigation it is not low like I said it is c 300m about the same as LLanddona so I would not worry about it at sea level

Arfon and Presely are 600m up .

Yeah and with the new dtt antenna adding height,Blaen will be circa 1000ft which is not too dis similar to 3 rock which at tiny power is being received in north wales.
I'd be quite happy at that height combined with a massive 40kw erp.

As mrdtv has stated,the 8k tx type seems to correct errors very well and is much more robust in coping with weather over long distances.

As for aerials-a grid aerial with a mast head amp is cheap and cheerfull and suffecient to test Blaen next march.
If it works then...thats the time to be ordering a 12 to 20 element group A depending on the average of the signal strength you are getting.

Arfon is blasting in to Wicklow now at 2kw albeit at a mast height of 2000ft or double that of blaen...but remember Blaen I repeat will be 20 times the power.