Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

irishtoffee · 21-09-2009 10:58pm

Had it working for about an hour and nothing since,would you believe my bbcs and htv are back on through the aerial.Anyway i am just going to get another skybox what i should have done in the first place.

marclt · 21-09-2009 11:28pm

irishtoffee wrote: »

Had it working for about an hour and nothing since,would you believe my bbcs and htv are back on through the aerial.Anyway i am just going to get another skybox what i should have done in the first place.

Sorry to hear that... if ur just looking for the free channels pick up a freesat box.

But it could be the weather conditions... i'm picking up clermont carn on an indoor aerial tonight. That's some distance!

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 9:41am

bmaxi wrote: »

Finally got to test the freeview box on my elderly neighbour's aerial, sad to say it was not a success. Hers is one of the square aerials and is actually still receiving BBC and ITV from Wales, albeit not great reception, maybe the aerial is misaligned.
Anyway, quality fluctuated between 30% and 70% possibly due to strong wind today but I doubt it would be a viable project, certainly with her current setup. Coaxial cables are the old brown ones to so probably been there since the year dot.

If your neighbour has a grid and is still on analogue UK TV then she will be on either Blaen-Plwyf or Arfon. Arfon has no DTT till October and Blaen-Plwyf DTT is low power till its switched over in March 2010, Is the grid vertical or horizontal? Your neighbour should sit tight till analogue Tv shuts down in the UK, then you can try the box again. But a modern installation would probably do the trick. Varying quality means insufficient signal strength.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 9:45am

irishtoffee wrote: »

Had it working for about an hour and nothing since,would you believe my bbcs and htv are back on through the aerial.Anyway i am just going to get another skybox what i should have done in the first place.

Not from Preseli. There is no analogue TV from there. Did you get Channel 5 analogue regularly before Preseli switched, because if you didn't you are either on another UK transmitter or a deflector. If you go down the satellite route why pay Sky: just get a Freesat box and you will have UK FTA stations without a subscription!

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 10:16am

Antenna wrote: »

if one requires reception of both Irish DTT and UK DTT in Wexford area - the only affordable solution to the potential problems for a householder would be to run two seperate aerial downleads and aerial cabling - one for Irish, one for UK, and use an 'A/B switch' at each STB/receiver to select the required aerial - unless there is such a thing as a MPEG4 receiver that has two aerial inputs?

Just combining aerials of signals of the same group is going to be messy, mainly due to the co-channel issue, and the fact one of the two sources will vary greatly in strength during the year. The Irish Dtt on ch45 may normally be dominant, but at times the second (presely) aerial might pull in enough co-channel signal to cause bad breakup of the Irish DTT mux on Ch 45. The 'Irish' UHF aerial may also pick up distant inland Irish transmitters (either analogue or DTT) that might interfere with UK DTT also depending on the weather. Source of interference incude Carn Hill which uses some of the Presely DTT channels (43,46,50)

There are two other solutions to this problem which is now used in the UK particularly in high power DTT areas:

a) If you are receiving two DTT transmitters using a digital TV , transmitter A is connected to the TV aerial and transmitter B is connected to a cheapo Freeview box which is SCARTed or HDMIed into the TV. No conflicts. Of course you have two remotes but its just like Sky.

b) You can actually diplex DVB-T COFDM signals together because they have different properties from analogue signals. It works in the UK in DSO areas and has been extensively discussed on digitalspy. Of course if you still have analogue TV and are using it may get messed up.

Personally I would:

a) Establish whether I was actually receiving from Preseli by checking with neighbours who have high performance systems.

b) Install a dedicated Preseli system. You may also find you get Mount Leinster RTE DTT off a sidelobe and this works too. ( Again I have seen two high power UK DTT stations working perfectly off one aerial and the angular separation between the transmitters was 272 degrees. The analogue was shocking off the non-aligned transmitter but the DTT is perfect.)

c) If that works you don't need a dedicated Mount Leinster antenna UNLESS the DTT trial service doesn't actually roll-out.

d) If that doesn't work reorientate the old UK antenna to Mount Leinster and see if they can be diplexed together. If not you can use a digital Tv + separate box solution as I posted earlier with two separate aerials

In all of this you need to establish:

a) Which UK transmitter you can use. If you can't get Preseli properly and are getting UK analogue you are on Arfon or Blaen-Plwyf. These are not upgraded.

b) How many TV sets need to be served by the set-up.

c) Carry out a cost-benefit analysis vs a Freesat solution. TVs, LNBs, cable runs, cost of antennas, installation. Then decide.

Having read this thread its clear a lot of people have made Preseli work for them and others have a quite steep learning curve.

This strikes me as a commercial opportunity for local aerial installers and, of course, our dear friends over at $ky!

I looked at a number of areas mentioned and local estate agent pictures: quite a few have impressive modern high gain dual Preseli/Mount Leinster antenna systems. These should work but you need to be alive to the relationship between Preseli COM muxes (not full power till the 30th) and Mount Leinster. As was already noted CCI will continue between Cairn Hill analogue Irish channels and Preseli PSB muxes: if you weren't affected by Cairn Hill in the analogue Preseli days no problem, but if you were that could be problematic.

b)

marclt · 22-09-2009 10:21am

mrdtv wrote: »

Not from Preseli. There is no analogue TV from there. Did you get Channel 5 analogue regularly before Preseli switched, because if you didn't you are either on another UK transmitter or a deflector. If you go down the satellite route why pay Sky: just get a Freesat box and you will have UK FTA stations without a subscription!

No deflectors in wexford town... there was never any need

The atmospheric conditions last night were such that there was alot of long distance reception. I had TV3/TG4 mullaghanish but lost mount leinster for a spell. Similarly, Channel 5 was coming in on the old Preseli frequency with co-channel so it must have been beaming in from Mendip or further afield. Wenvoe was visible on frequencies that had previously been used by Preseli pre dso digital.

Try again today Irishtoffee, you might have better results. And if you are thinking of getting a freesat box, don't go for the cheap bush, lots of faults on it apparently!

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 10:22am

marclt wrote: »

Hi Toffee, what box did you get there fella? We need to scan manually to see what sort of signal you're getting. How 'good' was analogue, very... crystal?

The box should be directly connected to your aerial - I mean it should be the first thing connected to your aerial, then your tv or freeview box, then vcr into tv. That way it should get the most signal.

Are you even getting blank screens for the Irish dtt service?

With the philips box, go into MENU, SEARCH FOR CHANNELS and Click MANUAL then look for Freequency and move left/right to find Ch.43 (the BBC mux).

In Miscellaneous settings you could enter a local postcode, PM me and I'll give you one. MRDTV, do you know if that helps?

Yes. That box will find signals as its very smart and very sensitive. Ditto the Manhattan DTT receiver. I wonder if the signals are from another Welsh transmitter or a deflector (are they still going down in the SE?) which is why there's no return OR the box is faulty: get a replacement. Irish toffee: did you receive analogue Channel 5? If the answer is no you are not on Preseli.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 10:31am

marclt wrote: »

No deflectors in wexford town... there was never any need

The atmospheric conditions last night were such that there was alot of long distance reception. I had TV3/TG4 mullaghanish but lost mount leinster for a spell. Similarly, Channel 5 was coming in on the old Preseli frequency with co-channel so it must have been beaming in from Mendip or further afield. Wenvoe was visible on frequencies that had previously been used by Preseli pre dso digital.

Try again today Irishtoffee, you might have better results. And if you are thinking of getting a freesat box, don't go for the cheap bush, lots of faults on it apparently!

Humax always for Freesat!

I wonder if Irish toffee is using Blaen-Plwyf or Arfon: some do. It is clear from the thread and several private emails that a lot of people are making Preseli DSO DTT work 'straight-out-of-the-box' in the South-East where they had good analogue. As you know Preseli analogue is also romping into North Devon ( I saw it perfectly at Woody Bay) and parts of the N Cornwall coast so it has an omnidirectional HRP. When I am met with a puzzle like Irishtoffee's I always reach for a set of logical processes to step through.

bothyhead · 22-09-2009 11:31am

marclt wrote: »

The atmospheric conditions last night were such that there was alot of long distance reception. I had TV3/TG4 mullaghanish but lost mount leinster for a spell. Similarly, Channel 5 was coming in on the old Preseli frequency with co-channel so it must have been beaming in from Mendip or further afield. Wenvoe was visible on frequencies that had previously been used by Preseli pre dso digital.

Here in north Wexford, I found the UK DTT reception terrible last night. The quality for CHs 43, 46, and 50 went anywhere from 3% to 95% - in a matter of seconds [I just ordered a new humax box yesterday, so hopefully this was just a temporary thing - fingers x]. Today the quality is more consistently up in the high 90s.

What are the atmospheric conditions that contribute to a poor signal? and how frequently, typically, do these conditions occur? (Winter vs Summer, etc ...)

Many thanks

bmaxi · 22-09-2009 11:56am

mrdtv wrote: »

If your neighbour has a grid and is still on analogue UK TV then she will be on either Blaen-Plwyf or Arfon. Arfon has no DTT till October and Blaen-Plwyf DTT is low power till its switched over in March 2010, Is the grid vertical or horizontal? Your neighbour should sit tight till analogue Tv shuts down in the UK, then you can try the box again. But a modern installation would probably do the trick. Varying quality means insufficient signal strength.

The grid is vertical (longest top to bottom) which appears to be the norm around Courtown. If she was not getting her signal from Preseli why would her analogue have disappeared? The analogue signal she has now is much weaker than before.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 12:21pm

bmaxi wrote: »

The grid is vertical (longest top to bottom) which appears to be the norm around Courtown. If she was not getting her signal from Preseli why would her analogue have disappeared? The analogue signal she has now is much weaker than before.

Doesn't make sense. Around Courtown they are getting DTT from Preseli with good systems. The weaker analogue will be becoming from Blaen-Plwyf which isn't going high power DTT till March 2010. In a grid antenna its the elements at the front which tell you the polarisation: this one is horizontally polarised:

http://www.dastv.co.uk/images/pht/md/3476_DAS1083.jpg

So if its turned around 90 degrees on this its a vertical grid (which would be for Arfon, not BP or Preseli). Hope this helps.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 12:27pm

bothyhead wrote: »

Here in north Wexford, I found the UK DTT reception terrible last night. The quality for CHs 43, 46, and 50 went anywhere from 3% to 95% - in a matter of seconds [I just ordered a new humax box yesterday, so hopefully this was just a temporary thing - fingers x]. Today the quality is more consistently up in the high 90s.

What are the atmospheric conditions that contribute to a poor signal? and how frequently, typically, do these conditions occur? (Winter vs Summer, etc ...)

Many thanks

Tropospheric lift conditions: weather dependent. Can occur at certain times in winter (some types of fog) and summer (very settled weather). Stations far away can interfere with transmitters on the same frequency. In analogue TV its the venetian blinds effect and in digital Tv signals can drop out, as they also can on satellite in very heavy rain and snow. The effects don't last long. As Marclt noted yesterday there were lift conditions: quite often happens in late September/early October....

bmaxi · 22-09-2009 12:43pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Doesn't make sense. Around Courtown they are getting DTT from Preseli with good systems. The weaker analogue will be becoming from Blaen-Plwyf which isn't going high power DTT till March 2010. In a grid antenna its the elements at the front which tell you the polarisation: this one is horizontally polarised:

http://www.dastv.co.uk/images/pht/md/3476_DAS1083.jpg

So if its turned around 90 degrees on this its a vertical grid (which would be for Arfon, not BP or Preseli). Hope this helps.

It is as the one in the illustration.

bothyhead · 22-09-2009 12:53pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Tropospheric lift conditions: weather dependent. Can occur at certain times in winter (some types of fog) and summer (very settled weather). Stations far away can interfere with transmitters on the same frequency. In analogue TV its the venetian blinds effect and in digital Tv signals can drop out, as they also can on satellite in very heavy rain and snow. The effects don't last long. As Marclt noted yesterday there were lift conditions: quite often happens in late September/early October....

So it's interference from other transmitters ... I'll Google tropospheric lift conditions for more info. Thanks again.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 1:09pm

bmaxi wrote: »

It is as the one in the illustration.

Thank you. Grids, alas, have low gain. A good exposition is at www.aerialsandtv.co.uk
Those with the modern high gain antennas will be able to receive Freeview. In the meantime your neighbour will have snowy Blaen-Plwyf until March when it will be turned off too. To make Preseli work properly you need a modern system: you can DIY it if its a bungalow or you are qualified for heights.

mct1 · 22-09-2009 4:47pm

I'll just post some positive feedback here in case it's helpful for any simple souls like me who don't understand all the jargon.

I live on an elevation just west of Wexford town. Previously we had very good analogue UK and Irish TV via a fairly ancient rooftop aerial and 90 pretty good Freeview channels via a Sony DVR+F/V.

BBC2 disappeared first, then I returned from holiday yesterday to find the rest of the UK analogue channels and most of the digital channels gone. This morning I read through this thread, retuned the DVR Freeview as per one of your links, and now we have great reception on 83 digital channels.

I realise I will have to retune again on 30th September. After that I will attempt to connect and retune a second, older Freeview box - in the hope that we can simultaneously watch one channel and record another. I'll report back on that.

Meanwhile, thanks for helping us masses with this complicated switchover. I'll just mention that before we went away (end August) I noticed that the Wexford People had a two page spread on how no-one would be able to get UK channels any more without satellite TV and had dozens of boxed ads for aerial/satellite firms to readers to contact. The following week, there was a small article mentioning Freeview. I, for one, have been happily spreading the word. Cheers!

marclt · 22-09-2009 4:53pm

mct1 wrote: »

The following week, there was a small article mentioning Freeview. I, for one, have been happily spreading the word. Cheers!

Yes, amazing what an email to the journo does! Clearly the first was great for them to generate some advertising sales... At least they put things right.

I think what is really important here is that we can continue to post details of signal strength so that people can monitor when things dip, because the art of tuning a digital receiver is much harder than analogue.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 4:58pm

mct1 wrote: »

I'll just post some positive feedback here in case it's helpful for any simple souls like me who don't understand all the jargon.

I live on an elevation just west of Wexford town. Previously we had very good analogue UK and Irish TV via a fairly ancient rooftop aerial and 90 pretty good Freeview channels via a Sony DVR+F/V.

BBC2 disappeared first, then I returned from holiday yesterday to find the rest of the UK analogue channels and most of the digital channels gone. This morning I read through this thread, retuned the DVR Freeview as per one of your links, and now we have great reception on 83 digital channels.

I realise I will have to retune again on 30th September. After that I will attempt to connect and retune a second, older Freeview box - in the hope that we can simultaneously watch one channel and record another. I'll report back on that.

Meanwhile, thanks for helping us masses with this complicated switchover. I'll just mention that before we went away (end August) I noticed that the Wexford People had a two page spread on how no-one would be able to get UK channels any more without satellite TV and had dozens of boxed ads for aerial/satellite firms to readers to contact. The following week, there was a small article mentioning Freeview. I, for one, have been happily spreading the word. Cheers!

Excellent, top man. Hope you enjoyed your holiday! Why don't you write an article for the Wexford People?

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 5:08pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Excellent, top man. Hope you enjoyed your holiday! Why don't you write an article for the Wexford People?

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/viewers-options-to-keep-watching-british-channels-1865466.html

Very balanced and written on 19 August 2009!

mct1 · 22-09-2009 6:06pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Very balanced and written on 19 August 2009!

Agreed - that was the second article I mentioned. This was the first from 12th August http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/farewell-to-free-tv-from-uk-1857967.html

As you said, the first article had obviously prompted a few indignant email corrections. We all make mistakes, I know, and fair play to the People for getting it right second time. Let's just hope no one makes money out of folk who don't know what to believe.

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 6:16pm

mct1 wrote: »

Agreed - that was the second article I mentioned. This was the first from 12th August http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/farewell-to-free-tv-from-uk-1857967.html

As you said, the first article had obviously prompted a few indignant email corrections. We all make mistakes, I know, and fair play to the People for getting it right second time. Let's just hope no one makes money out of folk who don't know what to believe.

Word of mouth and 'seeing is believing' are very important counters to 'factoids' dispensed by parties with vested interests. Tell neighbours and friends: those who are not able to go the Freeview route can go the Freesat route.

irishtoffee · 22-09-2009 8:01pm

Hi marclt and mrdtv once again thanks so much for your help,i decided to start over at 6.30 this morning and and retuned all stations and everything worked apart from bbc1,bbc2 and ch5 and both signals were at %80 and %60.When i got home from work bbcs were on but ch5 still nothing? All the other ch5s were working? Yes mrdtv on my aerial before the switch off ch5 was grand.I am getting the odd station freezing and to be honest that is wrecking my head so i think i will go for an extra sat box and hook it up to my sat dish.Any ideas where to get a freesat box?

mrdtv · 22-09-2009 8:08pm

irishtoffee wrote: »

Hi marclt and mrdtv once again thanks so much for your help,i decided to start over at 6.30 this morning and and retuned all stations and everything worked apart from bbc1,bbc2 and ch5 and both signals were at %80 and %60.When i got home from work bbcs were on but ch5 still nothing? All the other ch5s were working? Yes mrdtv on my aerial before the switch off ch5 was grand.I am getting the odd station freezing and to be honest that is wrecking my head so i think i will go for an extra sat box and hook it up to my sat dish.Any ideas where to get a freesat box?

Sounds like an aerial issue for you. You need to work out the cost of Freesat installed vs new aerial: Freesat is widely available on the web and can be easily installed in Ireland. Do the neighbours have Preseli?

irishtoffee · 22-09-2009 8:34pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Sounds like an aerial issue for you. You need to work out the cost of Freesat installed vs new aerial: Freesat is widely available on the web and can be easily installed in Ireland. Do the neighbours have Preseli?

I have a quad lnb on my dish so it should be handy enough to attach the cable to the dish and bring it to my room and connect it up.Neighbours have chorus and sky mate.I think i forgot to mention i have sky in sitting room and the reason i went for a freeview box was to avoid running more cables around the place haha.

atellyer · 22-09-2009 9:04pm

bothyhead wrote: »

So it's interference from other transmitters ... I'll Google tropospheric lift conditions for more info. Thanks again.

Last night I was picking up BBCs etc. from Bristol here in Howth and got lots of other lovely digital channels as well. All gone today though.

Antenna · 23-09-2009 9:44am

mrdtv wrote: »

b) You can actually diplex DVB-T COFDM signals together because they have different properties from analogue signals.

I was talking about the situation of both Presely and Mt Leinster using the same channel 45. How can a DTT receiver possibly decode the weaker of two DTT transmitters on the same channel? And in wexford which of the two is dominant or not (with combined aerials) would depend on the weather in some areas due to the long distance of one of the transmitters

mrdtv wrote: »

Again I have seen two high power UK DTT stations working perfectly off one aerial and the angular separation between the transmitters was 272 degrees.

yes but you didn't have a co-channel issue there, and the situation of one of the signals fluctuating greatly with weather.

mrdtv wrote: »

if you weren't affected by Cairn Hill in the analogue Preseli days no problem, but if you were that could be problematic.

in the analogue days the two transmitters (Mt Leinster and Presely) were in different aerial groups. The correct Group A and B diplexer for the aerials would attenuate the A aerial picking up interference for wanted signals from the B aerial (and vice versa) . But now DTT from Mt Leinster is in the same aerial group as Presely, and a co- channel issue too!

Another possible source of interference to people in some more inland areas of Co. Wexford is the Clonmel transmitter - which relatively recently had a channel change and is now co-channel with Presely with RTE2 on Chs 43 and TG4 on 50 and is the same polarisation too.

Ger Roe · 23-09-2009 10:46am

oldbat wrote: »

This reception report by Ger Roe is well intentioned but totally misleading.

At this point you must have realized that a fire guard is the wrong aerial for Arfon analogue or digital. Is the mast head amp a crappy red thing with exposed PCB inside which will pick up any interference from miles around instead of a proper sealed metal box with F connectors costing only a bit more? Did the installer have a huge Stetson hat and cowboy boots? Did he demand to be paid in US dollars? Did he arrive in with all his fire guards chucked in waggon pulled by a knackered horse? Do you suspect he may have expected you to call back and pay more money for the aerial he should have put in in the first place but didn't because he likes to visit several times to work an eventual miracle which would cost 2-3 times what it should have cost? .

I haven't checked this thread in a while, but must say that I find Oldbat's post a bit harsh.

As Fat Tony has pointed out, for better or worse, the grid antenna is the prevelant setup in my particlar area. Unfortunately, since the antenna was on the roof when I bought the house, I can not answer the questions regarding the dress code of the installer, the currency he was paid in or his mode of transport.

As an experiment, I decided to have a go with the setup that most people in my locality already have available. That setup has obviously provided analogue UK reception for many years and if a simple pan would work, then I expect most people might give it a go. If not, and a more elaborate installation is required, then personally I would stick with and recommend FTA/Freesat satellite.

I never intended to mislead anyone - I stated what I was using and the results obtained. So far, I can't see posts from anyone pulling in reliable DTT from Preselli around this north east area of Wicklow, but perhaps Fat Tony might have more luck when he has a chance to try with his beam.

For my own interest, I still intend to try the grid again when Arfon DTT is active, just to see what happens. As UK DTT reception in this area is still in the experimental stages, I won't be rushing out to buy any additional equipment just yet.

I suspect that if a new antenna install is required, then 'non Sky' satellite may be the generally preferred option - with my grid equiped neighbours anyway.

Regards,

Ger Roe.

fat-tony · 23-09-2009 6:11pm

Ger,

I had no success with Preseli during the high-pressure conditions, due I think, to co-channel interference from th 100kw transmitter in NE England. That reception has long since gone, but I haven't been able to get up on the roof since, but may have an opportunity over the weekend. Will report, but I think that Preseli is going to be a non-runner here. Maybe Llanddona, when it goes full power...maybe:(

Ger Roe · 24-09-2009 12:03pm

Tony,

Just to further complicate the issue, I acquired a TV with built-in mpeg 2 tuner this week and last night I connected it to the aforementioned grid pointing at Preselli. Lo and behold it scanned and loaded up over 70 channels. I was watching the BBC and ITV suite and other stations such as Five, Five US, Fiver, 4Music Sky 3, TMF. There were others, but I really only paid attention to those that were additional to my current FTA satellite selection.

The reception was very strong initially, but faded later to breakup for some stations, although BBC services remained strong and watchable all night.

This performance was more reliable than the two set top box's that I had tried previously, but I am not sure if it was better performance from the in-built tuner, or purely weather related.

I will continue to take a look over the next few days and see what happens.
Maybe it was only a freak, but I suppose monitoring over time will indicate if it's worth doing anything more to make it reliable.

mrdtv · 24-09-2009 3:01pm

Ger Roe wrote: »

Tony,

Just to further complicate the issue, I acquired a TV with built-in mpeg 2 tuner this week and last night I connected it to the aforementioned grid pointing at Preselli. Lo and behold it scanned and loaded up over 70 channels. I was watching the BBC and ITV suite and other stations such as Five, Five US, Fiver, 4Music Sky 3, TMF. There were others, but I really only paid attention to those that were additional to my current FTA satellite selection.

The reception was very strong initially, but faded later to breakup for some stations, although BBC services remained strong and watchable all night.

This performance was more reliable than the two set top box's that I had tried previously, but I am not sure if it was better performance from the in-built tuner, or purely weather related.

I will continue to take a look over the next few days and see what happens.
Maybe it was only a freak, but I suppose monitoring over time will indicate if it's worth doing anything more to make it reliable.

You don't say where you are: previously did you get Preseli or Arfon analogue very well? I would skip the grid and get a modern high gain Yagi or log: further down the coast Preseli seems to be doing very well. If you already have FTA satellite I would sit tight , observe what's going on, find out what the neighbours are doing (eg try the box there!), and wait till Arfon comes on. Then you can make an informed choice and decide what to invest in.

Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

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