Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

mrdtv

From mb21,wolfbane, NGW reference offer (2007) and Ofcom

HAASL = Height of antenna above sea level

Station HAASL ERP (kW)

Arfon 607.4m 2

BlaenPlwyf 322.7m 40

LLanddona 252.5m 20

Preseli 559.0m 20

mrdtv

FREETV wrote: »

Hi everyone, is it possible to get reliable reception of the Freeview UK DTT in the Swords area from Welsh transmitters preferably or Divis in the North? If so would I need a variable high gain UHF Masthead Amp of up to 26dB in strength or higher? Will an aerial 30-40Ft up be able to pick up the necessary signal? What group aerials will I need? I read that Group E aerials perform better than wideband aerials for the Group A and B category Transmitter. Group aerials are difficult to find. Will I need a 91 Element or a Triax Unix 100 aerial? Am I hoping for too much and will have to wait until next March until the most powerful Welsh Transmitter has gone up to full power to get a reliable signal? Also is there anywhere in Newry to pick up suitable Tv aerials? Thanks guys for any feedback.

You should check out neighbours: are they getting Divis (horizontal) or Kilkeel (vertical) both pointing north or out to sea: horizontal is Llanddona and vertical is Arfon. Divis DTT is too weak and some channels are compromised by Three Rock till Divis DSO in 2012: Kilkeel remains analogue till then. LLanddona and Arfon are possible: find out if the neighbours are watching HTV or BBC1 Wales via their aerials. Then you can decide what to do having assessed local conditions.

mrdtv

I see that, finally, a technology broadcasting company in Waterford spells out exactly what the viewer has to do to restore UK overspill in the South East. Black Briar will be very pleased. And a good commercial opportunity for them with such a simple explanation:

http://www.totalbroadcast.net/five.html

That looks like it's been up since the summer.
They are a bit dear with their set top boxes and they dont explain that people with digital tv's of which there are a lot now need only use that function on their tv for the first time in most cases and will not have to spend any money at all.
Thats assuming up to now that they had been receivingthe analogue services.

In simple summary for new readers:

People in co wicklow who still have analogue uk services from wales on their tv are receiving from arfon.
BBC 2 has switched off on this now to allow for some of the digital services to start.
All the remaining 3 analogue channels will go off air from there in mid november.
The first phase of digital has started from that transmitter so people in wicklow who have lost bbc 2 and who have a digital tv can use that function to receive bbc2 and some more channels digitally.
Next month when the remaining 3 analogues go off air,they can retune their digital tv's or set top boxes to get the 4 channels back plus several more new channels including five,bbc news 24,bbc 3 and bbc4 and itv 2,itv 3 and itv4 aswell as a host of radio channels.

New readers please ask any questions and we will endeavour to answer them.

Just to add...The last post there refers to most of co wicklow who are now being affected by the change.
viewers in wexford and some in co wicklow especially south wicklow always used the presely wales transmitter for their uk analogue services.
They went through this process earlier last month and have already lost all analogue services.
It has been established that those viewers can definitely receive a very good digital service from the same transmitter if they have had analogue up untill that was switched off.

In simple terms,the digital signals being broadcast are actually stronger and more stable than the old analogue.
Leaflets sent through letterboxes from sky were totally misleading in that regard.
Overspill of uk services into wicklow and wexford is actually better than before.

It can be received if you have been getting fair analogue reception.
All you need is a tv with a digital tuner.

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

All you need is a tv with a digital tuner.

All you need is a digital tuner which may be a box or a telly .

Any aerial group changes post ASO or are all groups the same as before ??

mrdtv

mrdtv wrote: »

I see that, finally, a technology broadcasting company in Waterford spells out exactly what the viewer has to do to restore UK overspill in the South East. Black Briar will be very pleased. And a good commercial opportunity for them with such a simple explanation:

http://www.totalbroadcast.net/five.html

Pricing is always a matter for detailed web investigations prior to purchase! Its the message that's the best bit as it is so clear on that site. The sticky on this thread should be changed completely once Arfon and Llanddona are completely switched over in three and a half weeks time.

The ways to go are clearly:

a) Tune in a digital TV, highly likely to be MPEG2, but some MPEG4

b) get a Freeview STB or MPEG4 STB such as the Sagem box

c) get a combo Freesat/DTT box

depending on what you've got, budget etc.

These are all easily sourced off the web eg Amazon, Richer Sounds, independent dealers etc or a little trip to Northern Ireland superstores can be scheduled. A reasonable Freeview STB is a good buy as it can simply be cascaded round the house to other TVS if you decide to get a combo, HD or PVR box in due course. This is not rocket science: its just a little unfamiliar to most consumers in Ireland whereas in the UK DTT is simply viewed as a utility now which is second nature.

mrdtv

Sponge Bob wrote: »

All you need is a digital tuner which may be a box or a telly .

Any aerial group changes post ASO or are all groups the same as before ??

DSO Aerial groups:

Arfon: Group B

Blaen-Plwyf: Group A

LLanddona: Group E/W

Preseli : Group B

and in 2012:

Divis: Group A again

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

All you need is a digital tuner which may be a box or a telly .

Any aerial group changes post ASO or are all groups the same as before ??

No aerial groups changes or aerial changes for anybody on arfon or presely.
Thats everybody in wicklow and wexford who has had analogue from wales to date.

Those on arfon who want even more channels may be able to receive blaenplwyf in march 2010.
If as is likely it is a reliable service,you may see aerial installers using that transmitter next spring.

Just to add..To my knowledge I doubt anybody is using Llandonna in either Dublin wicklow or Wexford so we are unlikely to get reception reports from it,bar somebody changes their aerial out of curiosity having read this.
Thats unlikely.

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

No aerial groups changes or aerial changes for anybody on arfon or presely.

Thats everybody in wicklow and wexford who has had analogue from wales to date.

And in Waterford Carlow Kilkenny if they were lucky .

If anybody still has analogue UK telly in the south east of Ireland today it must be coming from the Blaenpwlf transmitter ( or conceiveably a relay thereof but unlikely ) and no aerial change will be required when that last transmitter goes digital in March 2010 with the proviso that the signal could be very powerful after March and they may have to change their existing amplifier to something a bit less powerful .

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

No aerial groups changes or aerial changes for anybody on arfon or presely.
Thats everybody in wicklow and wexford who has had analogue from wales to date.

Those on arfon who want even more channels may be able to receive blaenplwyf in march 2010.
If as is likely it is a reliable service,you may see aerial installers using that transmitter next spring.

Just to add..To my knowledge I doubt anybody is using Llandonna in either Dublin wicklow or Wexford so we are unlikely to get reception reports from it,bar somebody changes their aerial out of curiosity having read this.
Thats unlikely.

The guy in Kilcoole did and got the old BBC Mux (Ch 50) from Llanddona: that was a couple of years ago. Its in the DS thread. He would probably get the high power mux from Llanddona now on Ch 57. You would only change your aerial in the Arfon service area if you had easy access to it and knew what you were doing. It may be worth investigating: one poster on this thread is looking at Llanddona and waiting for phase 2 of the switchover.

Sponge Bob

Next bit of fun will be LLanddona going HD mid november , especially in Dublin and points north ...what with free HD world cup footie next year and all

The page with all the info .

http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=SH583810

mrdtv

mrdtv wrote: »

The guy in Kilcoole did and got the old BBC Mux (Ch 50) from Llanddona: that was a couple of years ago. Its in the DS thread. He would probably get the high power mux from Llanddona now on Ch 57. You would only change your aerial in the Arfon service area if you had easy access to it and knew what you were doing. It may be worth investigating: one poster on this thread is looking at Llanddona and waiting for phase 2 of the switchover.

To be honest I don't know.

I do know that Llandonna is a very rare high pressure weather only visitor here on amped widebands and I'm about 25 miles south of kilkoole.
Presely has wicklow head to negotiate and nearby high ground in it's track to kilkoole whereas Llandonna is all sea towards me untill you hit any welsh obstacles.
So if we were not able to get a hint of llandonna analogue here in normal conditions,I'd be surprised if digital even at 20kw was anything more than patchy.
I could be wrong though as you wouldnt know unless you know the terrain.
Also Llandonna appears to be lower down than even blaenplwyf at 250 metres and has to track across the island of anglesea before it hits a sea path towards Dublin.
I'm not ruling it out but I'd be less confident.

My best advice to anyone along the wicklow coast would be arfon and then Blaen.

reslfj

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Next bit of fun will be LLanddona going HD mid november ,....

After December 2nd. How long after - no info yet!

Lars

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And in Waterford Carlow Kilkenny if they were lucky .

If anybody still has analogue UK telly in the south east of Ireland today it must be coming from the Blaenpwlf transmitter ( or conceiveably a relay thereof but unlikely ) and no aerial change will be required when that last transmitter goes digital in March 2010 with the proviso that the signal could be very powerful after March and they may have to change their existing amplifier to something a bit less powerful .

Well some people in north wexford do actually use arfon so like most people in wicklow they still have analogue ITV one,s4c and BBC one wales.
I'm aware of one person near Roundwood in co wicklow that used to use Blaenplwyf.
It's highly unlikely that anyone in wexford or waterford ever used it so I guess yeah,no one in co wexford or waterford will be receiving UK analogue tv now apart from some on arfon ..unless they happen upon stray signals from somewhere or other in high pressure.

Incidently I still have a very very weak ch5 on uhf ch37 that fades in and out.

mrdtv have you any idea which tx thats coming from?

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Well some people in north wexford do actually use arfon so like most people in wicklow they still have analogue ITV one,s4c and BBC one wales.
I'm aware of one person near Roundwood in co wicklow that used to use Blaenplwyf.
It's highly unlikely that anyone in wexford or waterford ever used it so I guess yeah,no one in co wexford or waterford will be receiving UK analogue tv now apart from some on arfon ..unless they happen upon stray signals from somewhere or other in high pressure.

Incidently I still have a very very weak ch5 on uhf ch37 that fades in and out.

mrdtv have you any idea which tx thats coming from?

Mendip, 125kW, near Bristol is the most likely suspect as the other Ch37 western stations (Preseli, Redruth etc) have all DSO'd. After Arfon and Llanddona DSO there will only be Blaen -Plwyf analogue left along the western seaboard facing Ireland. and Mendip is 'behind' Preseli from your location.

Ah that would explain it alright.
As a kid I remember getting HTV west in high pressure and I presume that was mendip?
Interesting.
It's nearly always there only barely.

By the way on analogue ch43 and 46 there a black and white barely watchable RTE from cairn hill here which is not affecting presely digital quality in any way-it reads 100% almost always anyway.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah that would explain it alright.
As a kid I remember getting HTV west in high pressure and I presume that was mendip?
Interesting.
It's nearly always there only barely.

By the way on analogue ch43 and 46 there a black and white barely watchable RTE from cairn hill here which is not affecting presely digital quality in any way-it reads 100% almost always anyway.

Yes, Mendip is the prime suspect. Its a very high site and will be DSO'd early next year and belt out at 100kW (analogue is 500kW for ordinary BBC/ITV/Four and IIRC 126kW for 5 analogue.)

The reason why Cairn Hill is not affecting you is because you have a directional Yagi array with good F/B ratio and Preseli is the stronger signal. The DVB-T system is entirely capable of recovering the service in the presence of analogue co-channel interferers: it all depends on the relative signal levels. The weak RTE signal is too low to bother the receiver and is probably CCIR Grade 1.0 which is abysmal.

It would be really interesting to know the Preseli C/N ratio, some receivers read this out directly, but not the Humax PVR. The C/N will be well north of 20dB otherwise the signal would fail. I am guessing it will be in the region of 26-28dB or more.

Sponge Bob

Lest anyone think that Blaenpwlf will inundate the east coast with signal I would point out that an infill relay was to be installed on the Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda to transmit on Channels 21 24 27 31 by September 2009 and most of those are/will be used by Blaenpwlf.

It is only designed to cover 10 square miles of Drogheda down in the boyne valley .

It will be installed some time , it is in the next tranche to be done according to the DTT rollout plan .

Coverage page 5 of this ..also see page 6

mrdtv

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Lest anyone think that Blaenpwlf will inundate the east coast with signal I would point out that an infill relay was to be installed on the Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda to transmit on Channels 21 24 27 31 by September 2009 and most of those are/will be used by Blaenpwlf.

It is only designed to cover 10 square miles of Drogheda down in the boyne valley .

It will be installed some time , it is in the next tranche to be done according to the DTT rollout plan .

Coverage page 5 of this ..also see page 6

Ahem! Blaen-Plwyf would never stretch that far north due to the curvature of the Earth. These channels you mention are already in use for the Divis analogue TV transmissions operating at 500kW which would likely swamp said relay. Of course the silence on the operational rollout date of Irish DTT remains very interesting...

BowWow

Black Briar/mrdtv,

Guys,
1. Lets say I put up a Group A for Blaen-Plwyf in March. Can I assume that as I'm 180 kms from the transmitter I need something for weak signal areas, perhaps with a Mast Head Amp? However I see that Black Briar has excellent signal in Arklow from Preseli, a distance of about 140 kms. BP will have twice the power of Preseli so maybe I can use a "smaller" aerial?
(I'm at sea level - sea is at the end of my garden! Clear line of sight to transmitter)
2. Would this aerial pick up my Irish DTT or would the Irish DTT signal be too strong?
Regards.......BW

I'd say it's worth a try.
Use a cheap grid wideband aerial first with a masthead amp and see what happens.
Grids work perfectly for presely round here and arfon.
It will take in irish dtt from 3 rock from behind without a bother I'd say and kippure.

marclt

Good to hear of postive reception reports.

I'm still thinking that in the long run all of this will be too good to be true!

I'm still left thinking that without the availability of boxes on shelves that most people will be going down a cable/mmds or satellite option as reception is guaranteed.

BowWow

marclt wrote: »

I'm still left thinking that without the availability of boxes on shelves that most people will be going down a cable/mmds or satellite option as reception is guaranteed.

If this works for Dublin in March IMO there will be a huge move from Sky/UPC in the current economic climate. Irish DTT/Freeview/Freesat = Big cost savings.

BowWow

Deleted User wrote: »

It will take in irish dtt from 3 rock from behind

Sorry what does this mean? I'm at a bearing to Blaen-Plwyf of 130, 3Rock is at a bearing of 200.

marclt

BowWow wrote: »

If this works for Dublin in March IMO there will be a huge move from Sky/UPC in the current economic climate. Irish DTT/Freeview/Freesat = Big cost savings.

True BowWow, but there is the initial cost of an aerial installation etc... and many households in Dublin don'thave huge aerials anymore.

As we have discovered in Wexford town, many with exisiting aerial arrays have been struggling with perfect dtt reception. I suppose people just put up with a fuzzy analogue picture but you can't do that with digital... it is all or nothing.

BowWow

BowWow wrote: »

Sorry what does this mean? I'm at a bearing to Blaen-Plwyf of 130, 3Rock is at a bearing of 200.

It means the 3 rock signal will probably be strong enough outside on the roof to come in on an aerial pointed to blaen as will kippure.

I can confirm that on a bog standard grid aerial on a chimney with just a standard 3ft pole ,the aerial being in pretty shabby condition in Arklow town [wexford road area],and which is probably slightly out of allignment and actually quite bent up...Arfon signal strenght 71% quality 70%

Analogue reception from arfon on this aerial is pretty poor but watchable.

This is further evidence that anyone that has had half a picture at all from wales in wicklow is going to have crystal clear digital reception and no need for a satelite dish.
I'm impressed.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

Good to hear of postive reception reports.

I'm still thinking that in the long run all of this will be too good to be true!

I'm still left thinking that without the availability of boxes on shelves that most people will be going down a cable/mmds or satellite option as reception is guaranteed.

amazon.com !!

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

I can confirm that on a bog standard grid aerial on a chimney with just a standard 3ft pole ,the aerial being in pretty shabby condition in Arklow town [wexford road area],and which is probably slightly out of allignment and actually quite bent up...Arfon signal strenght 71% quality 70%

Analogue reception from arfon on this aerial is pretty poor but watchable.

This is further evidence that anyone that has had half a picture at all from wales in wicklow is going to have crystal clear digital reception and no need for a satelite dish.
I'm impressed.

DTT behaves differently from analogue terrestrial: it is either perfect, blocky or not there. Those with indifferent analogue will find high power DTT will work extremely well from the same transmitter: this is because if the DTT is above the threshold it will work perfectly. It also requires a much lower signal strength than analogue terrestrial to give a perfect picture: I think this is something which is not widely understood as its counter intuitive but this the way the system works. That is why people are getting excellent Preseli and Arfon DTT in SE Ireland and perfect RTE DTT in mid-Tyrone from Cairn Hill where the analogue is poor. Many people will find out about this through the Internet and word-of-mouth/viral effects.