DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121939963#Comment_121939963

Will DART+ free up spare DMU's?

If yes, then I agree, that makes sense. The impression I get is that policy now is no new pure DMU's, either BEMU's or bi-modes only. So if they can use trains from the old DMU fleet, then that is fine, but if buying anything new it would have to be BEMU.

BTW I totally get and agree on your point about emissions in rural areas. The counter argument would be that you would still want to reduce emissions coming into the towns like Greystones and Wicklow. Perhaps a bi-mode battery + Diesel engine, kind of like a hybrid car would make sense. Operate battery only into and out of towns (and while standing at the station), while operating the Diesel engine in the countryside in between.

I suppose it would all come down to costs, cost of a bi-mode, versus a pure BEMU + supporting infrastructure.

There would be some politics around this too. You could see rural folks complaining about Dublin getting electric trains, while rural areas continue with dirty Diesel.

prunudo

If they plan to increase frequency between Wicklow and Greystones, will a passing loop be required around Newcastle or wherever the half way point is?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940666#Comment_121940666

DART+ N/W/SW will release a huge number of 29000s, which need significant repair but this is tendered for; and a reasonable number of 22000s

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940712#Comment_121940712

not for one train an hour, which is all I'd imagine they'll be doing. It's 15 mins from Greystones to Wicklow.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940717#Comment_121940717

Great, I wonder could these trains use HVO Biofuel [1] or similar without replacing the engines. Might be a solution.

[1] I know some people object to using Biofuel for food security reasons, but I think it might be okay in relatively small amounts for edge cases like this. Electrify most lines, use batteries where it makes sense and use Biofuel for some lines like this.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940754#Comment_121940754

Irish Rail are extensively trialling HVO, 201s/071s and track machines for starters but I'd assume they'll look at the DMUs

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940717#Comment_121940717

Are the DMUs requiring repair or do they benefit to upgrading?

The original Dart 8200s were upgraded to extend their use for a decade or two. They are over 40 years old at this stage, and still good to go for a while yet.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940760#Comment_121940760

The floors are rotting out of the 29000s

The 8100 DARTs are life expired, there is a proposed life extension needing CRR approval. The 8200s are parked up awaiting a cutters torch

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940766#Comment_121940766

I am not that familiar with the Dart 8100, 8200. Why cut them up? Can they not be upgraded to extend their life?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940741#Comment_121940741

Obviously far better than current frequency, but they can't keep building housing estates in every village and town along the eastern Wicklow corridor without something more ambitious.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940796#Comment_121940796

The 8200s are absolute junk and have been out of service for a decade and a half. Apparently one unit has been scrapped already.

The 8100s are life expired according to their manufacturer's legal successor. It reaches a point where it becomes implausibly expensive to keep old stock in use.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940796#Comment_121940796

8100 is the original boxy carriages from the 80s; they were given a refurb about 15 years ago.

8200 is a small number of carriages they bought in the 90s that never worked reliably. I think they were in service for only 10 years or so and not even continuously during that time. They can't be salvaged as the parts aren't available.

goingnowhere

8100 are all but life expired but lack of funding means they will drag on, at least until the CRR intervene in July this year. Fleet availability isn't great and breakdowns common place.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2022/09/17/irish-rail-seeks-another-life-extension-of-original-dart-fleet-up-to-2034/

8200 Irish Rail simply refused to buy the spare parts, it was fairly common to see the entire fleet in service on a daily basis. They are Alstom Coradia ONIX 2000 units, they might look different but the electronics and traction gear was fairly common across Alstom's product range. Alstom engineers not happy, bear in mind Alstom had a lot of folks in Ireland to support the Luas trams so it wasn't like there wasn't local support or logistics in place.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941114#Comment_121941114

The 8200s (and 2700 diesel sisters) had warranty fault lists the length of the phonebook and continual failures - Alsthom never managed to get them reliable when they were new.

Sam Russell

Thanks for the replies re Dart 8100, 8200 stock.

What will replace them?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941519#Comment_121941519

The new Alstom (again! and yes, they did change the spelling of their name) units ordered two years ago. Two sets of these have been ordered, one for DART+ North and one to replace the 8100s. The 8500s still have plenty of life in them, even if the non-airconditioned sets will be anachronistic when every other DART is airconditioned (some of the 8500s are)

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941570#Comment_121941570

I don't care about aircon, I'd just like to the see the chunky seats on the earlier 8500s replaced, they're ridiculously uncomfortable for anyone over child-height.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941650#Comment_121941650

One summer working in Eastpoint made me exceptionally happy to see an 8520+ turning up, lest I drown in other peoples sweat in just one stop to Connolly.

I'd hope they'd go for a mid-life refurb including new seats.

orb123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940801#Comment_121940801

Good point. IrishRail’s 2027 strategy mentions a long term ambition to have a service every 20 minutes peak periods and every 30 minutes off peak to/from Gorey by having passengers interchange with a Dart at Greystones.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941823#Comment_121941823

Surely interchanging at Bray makes more sense where the Gorey train pulls into Platform 1 (the one on the western side) and passengers walk across to a waiting Dart on Platform 2. Of course, that could be an arriving train connecting with the Gorey train.

Changing at Greystones requires passengers to cross over the line, or wait for an incoming train while their train gets out of the way.

Or would they build an extra platform?

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940170#Comment_121940170

DART+ website says consultation due by the end of March, so tmo or Thursday-unless it’s delayed.

Was the second dart order explicitly stated to be the 8100s replacements, and if so why are they BEMUs.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942153#Comment_121942153

I don't think they specifically said what is replacing what, but the DART+ order includes BEMU's as they will be continuing north of Malahide to Drogheda under battery power.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942193#Comment_121942193

New floors - https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/230745/1/0

Also been tenders for new seats and new passenger info systems. Basically much of a mid life refit done bit by bit.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940717#Comment_121940717

What other repairs are tendered for? PIS needs sorting out. And I know they are discussing replacing the gens, but that's pre tender discussion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940766#Comment_121940766

Floor replacement has been going on since last year, on a unit by unit basis.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942216#Comment_121942216

I replied before you added more quotes here. Seats and PIS were also tendered. Powertrain is shagged on a lot of them but I've not seen anything about that yet. Plenty of incredibly loud units, been on more than a few sets recently that had one car operating as a trailer also

I've not seen one with new floors; but I know there's so little headroom in the fleet for that kind of work quickly; I remember how long the new seat covers took to appear and also how the new livery still isn't fully there!

orb123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942002#Comment_121942002

I agree from a passenger convenience perspective but presumably IrishRail would find it beneficial to segregate the DART from Gorey services to prevent potential delays to either.

A 2011 study suggested a new turnback platform at Greystones for operational flexibility but AFAIK it hasn't been suggested since then. 

Doesn't crossing from platform 1 to platform 2 at Bray require crossing the line by footbridge too? Unless you meant platform 3?

KrisW1001

IÉ have a tender out for advice on extending the service life of the original 8100-series DART cars out to 2034:

- Public RFT - DART CLASS 8100 EMU EXTENDED OPERATION REVIEW (eu-supply.com)

Here’s the relevant bit:

IE wishes to commission an independent review of DART EMU Class 8100 fleet and to provide guidance or recommendations to support operation to extend the lifespan. [...]

The fleet of 38 x 2 car steel bodied EMUs were manufactured by LHB in Germany and commenced operation in 1984 on the new 1500vDC OHLE services around Dublin. The fleet operates in 6 or 8 car coupled formation and accumulates about 120,000km in service per set (annually). The fleet is maintained on a time and distance-based maintenance regime for running maintenance and overhaul at Fairview Depot Dublin and Inchicore Works, Dublin. Bogie overhaul and wheelset overhaul is undertaken in-house at Inchicore Works. The Class 8100 fleet received a major half-life refurbishment in Germany in 2006-2008. Refurbishment included interior refresh and heavy maintenance and overhaul on doors, bogies, traction motors, couplers, brake system. Some areas of corrosion were attended to but were not significant. New or enhanced systems included flooring, laminated glass, seat material (and improved Cat1b BS Fire certification), PIS, CCTV, OTDR event recorder and sanding. In addition, the original GEC Alsthom traction equipment was completely replaced with a modern Siemens Chopper control traction system. Window frames were completely replaced, and body apertures repaired as necessary when window frames were removed.

In 2022 the original Servotrol brake system control distributor was replaced on all vehicles by a retrofit replacement with a modern electronic BECU(I2RV model) from the OEM Faiveley Transport. The refurbishment was deemed to require approval from the National Safety Authority under their NRSA Guidelines for the fleet to enter service. In April 2007 the RSC (now CRR) issued a certificate of acceptance for passenger service with certain listed conditions. One condition was that the vehicle life would be 40 years. Recent review of files suggests that the RSC placed this condition on the basis that the expected life was contained in internal IE documents supporting the project. However, there were several life expectancies (design life) set out in the project document and it was not expected that they would result in a service limitation.

The fleet is required to remain in service for up to 12 more years or 2034. A number of trains have recently suffered from limited bodyside corrosion under the cab door above the solebar section. These are being repaired currently. The independent party will also be asked to provide support to IE to seek approval from the CRR for this life extension.

I think that once the Cork commuter line is electrified, some of these refurbished 8100 cars may end up there to provide off-peak service.

Sam Russell

It would appear from the above that the 8100s were basically rebuilt and upgraded to a more up to date specification in 2006 to 2008. Why can that not be done again?

goingnowhere

The safety cert expires in July 2024 so well behind the curve, or more likely have been told they can't fudge this and need a formal process

The original spec was a 30 year life, so there should be questions as to the structure and fatigue life. The corrosion problem is not structural but the number of patches appearing on units is concerning, I've seen 5 on a single coach side recently. Many of the fleet are out of service long term, some for many months

Work required is akin to a full refurbishment

1. New door mechanisms, current ones do not meet current safety specs
2. New main compressor
3. Replace MA with static converter
4. ETCS L1 fitout
5. Obsolesence issues with the traction electronics, availability of parts etc

Of course any funding needs to go through all the hoops with the NTA and DOT and that will take years, certificate expires in 4 months... Last refurb project took close to 3 years

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942754#Comment_121942754

Cost.

Two further decades of body and frame corrosion - steel trains running in sea air, two further decades of wear on the traction kit (which was overhauled, not replaced) will be even more expensive to deal with than last time. The end outcome after doing a costly overhaul would be 40+ year old kit with poorer facilities and efficiency than modern kit.

Additionally, I believe these are the last of that family of LHB stock in use - there were very similar trains on the Amsterdam Metro, and some less similar in Germany, but have all been withdrawn. This reduces the willingness of the original manufacturer (who were long since sold off) to provide any support - parts, information and potentially even producer liability insurance.

There would reach a point where you are basically building new trains inside the (rusting) skeletons of the old stock. This would not be cheaper than buying new and any environmental benefits would be outweighed by newer stock being more efficient anyway.